Marketing budget...that's a funny word.
It's a valid advertising technique taught in many advertising and marketing courses.
Valid technique and douchebag technique are not mutually exclusive.
The people that are "pissed" will look into it further at some point to confirm that it isn't worth their time. At that point, they will either hate it or they'll swallow their earlier comments and purchase it anyway.
Oh I will definitely look into it in the future. But it has likely dropped from "purchase immediately" (which, with that list of people, it might have been at the get-go if the product itself had been announced along with the list, if its subject was of interest or desire to me) to "wait for a few reviews first, purchase if they review well".
And it's definitely colored my perception of stuff from this company in the future.
Want a good example of how to do it properly LMPjr? Your own advertising for the "all women adventure path". You listed several good authors, a few I hadn't heard of but other posters confirmed were as good as those I was familiar with, and said "they're gonna do an AP". Boom. No big spoilers, just basic info along with a list of participating contributors. And you had me from there. This time, not so much.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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It's a valid advertising technique taught in many advertising and marketing courses. The people that are "pissed" will look into it further at some point to confirm that it isn't worth their time. At that point, they will either hate it or they'll swallow their earlier comments and purchase it anyway.
9 times out of 10 if they felt strongly enough to post about it to begin with, it's already a successful ad, whatever it was that grabbed their attention will sell the product despite their disdain for the way the it was marketed.
Then again, this is the internet, so no one will every buy a product that they have said they won't buy due to marketing that they don't like.
The ur-counterexample, of course, is the marketing for 4th Edition, which whether you loved, hated, or were indifferent to the actual gameplay virtues of that edition, turned enough people off that it created the opportunity for Pathfinder RPG to be born.
That may be the outlier, but the game most of us are playing right now demonstrates that it is a risk.
SGG and Dreamscarred have set the bar pretty high for 3pp in my mind.
We'll see how/what this is. I hope it's not another campaign setting.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Having this conversation with you is only further lessening any interest I had in this.
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9 times out of 10 if they felt strongly enough to post about it to begin with, it's already a successful ad,
Yes. This is completely true. It is a marketing technique. Every post here bumps the profile of SECRET PROJECT X.
whatever it was that grabbed their attention will sell the product despite their disdain for the way the it was marketed.
No. This is not always correct. What grabbed my attention was a: the withholding of some information in a considered attempt to intrigue me. What made me disdainful was the following responses to my comment from Louis. Marketing is a two edged sword, and risk assessment is a big part of marketing. Being flippant and coy are marketing strategies. With risks.
People that whine, well we want to know more an you didn't tell us right now, are pretty much the definition of impatient.
Hmm. I'm pretty sure that people who categorize others as "people who whine" are the definition of inconsiderate. :) Also: how can I be impatient about something that is as yet undisclosed? All I have is a roster of authors. No theme. No idea. A buzz. I am never impatient for a buzz.
Anyway Crash_00, I think you do know something about marketing, so there's that.
Oh. I almost completely forgot.
WATCH THE FORUMS!!! SECRET PROJECT X IS COMING!!!
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It's a valid advertising technique taught in many advertising and marketing courses. The people that are "pissed" will look into it further at some point to confirm that it isn't worth their time. At that point, they will either hate it or they'll swallow their earlier comments and purchase it anyway.
9 times out of 10 if they felt strongly enough to post about it to begin with, it's already a successful ad, whatever it was that grabbed their attention will sell the product despite their disdain for the way the it was marketed.
Then again, this is the internet, so no one will every buy a product that they have said they won't buy due to marketing that they don't like.
An interesting point. However, what grabbed my attention wasn't the information on the product itself (of which we have nothing beyond authors). What grabbed my attention was irritation at the method behind the advertising. Which means, and obviously I can only speak for myself here, I'm far less likely to give them money.
That said, I'm the kind of guy who will, for want of a better term, hold a grudge over something like this. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm an incredibly stubborn guy at times, particularly when it comes to where I spend my money. I got screwed over royally by a retail chain that I worked for as an assistant manager nearly 7 years ago now. Despite the fact that they sell stuff that I'd be very interested in buying, I've not set foot in one of those stores in all the time since then unless I've been dragged in by someone I'm with, and I haven't spent a single cent in any of them. Same deal goes for restaurants and cafes. I get bad service (and I mean truly bad service, not just a couple of minor issues), and I will never, ever go back.
So in my instance, all that's been accomplished is making it far less likely that I'll actually buy whatever this product is. Based on responses from LMPjr, I'm also less likely to want to buy any of his products in particular.
Additionally, in regards to your follow up post. My dislike of this style of marketing doesn't mark me as immature. I suppose I may not understand how marketing and publishing works, that's quite possible. That doesn't mean that my opinion is invalid. I'm sure research shows that advertisements of this type are effective. That doesn't mean I, or any of the other commenters, don't have our own well thought out reasons for disliking it. Personally I just prefer a straight up "here's what we're doing" response. Additionally, given that these are independent 3PP companies, I'm not entirely sure how much water the "they have to wait until a certain date to actually announce what it is" argument holds. Again, as I said, it's true that I don't work in publishing, so I could be wrong.
I suppose that, in the same way you say dislike of this strategy could be considered immature, you could think of my refusal to spend money in stores etc. after being treated poorly as immature. However, I see it as voting with my wallet. Why should I give money to those who have done something to annoy me (taxes and bills are an obvious exception here, as paying them is a necessity of life if I wish to live in comfort).
SGG and Dreamscarred have set the bar pretty high for 3pp in my mind.
We'll see how/what this is. I hope it's not another campaign setting.
I agree. That would be a very questionable campaign setting, as there would be far too many cooks in the kitchen. That sort of group effort can work—Golarion is a prime example—but those settings are designed to be generic. In other words, they are intended to accommodate many different styles of campaign and gameplay.
A new setting should have a tight theme and direction. A small team with one or two well known authors would be better for that sort of setting. Since the Pathfinder Campaign Setting exists for general use, the only marketable campaign approach would be specific settings.
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Good news! I am upload the video which reveals what Secret Plan X to YouTube. When it is finished uploading, I will like the page here!
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Dang. I kept calling it Secret Project X. As if the thread title wasn't giving it away the whole time. See, all the marketing in the world can't account for sheer idiocy. :)
GO SECRET PLAN X!!!
Youtube seems to be slow today. :)
^I was just thinking the same thing.
I noticed LMP's post shortly after he made it, and have been eagerly awaiting the link.
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Holy crap guys.
I've never seen people so deeply offended by the act of being coy.
I can't imagine how your respective significant others handle it.
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Holy crap guys.
I've never seen people so deeply offended by the act of being coy.
I can't imagine how your respective significant others handle it.
At 66 (me) and 64 (her), we don't do coy anymore.
-- david
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Don't have one, don't want one.
And it irks me when friends do it, most of mine have learned not to unless they're deliberately trying to needle me for some reason. I can take a little needling from a close friend; getting the same from someone trying to sell me something is just irritating.
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Finally what you have been waiting for...
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It's just that this business of making vague announcements about announcements to come is getting out of hand recently. In general.
Some company have even taken to making announcements of announcements of announcements, such as the BBC with their Doctor Who stuff recently. It's silly.
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Yep, the one he's been asking around about for the past month or so, I think. Which I've been eagerly looking forward to ever since he started asking what people wanted.
Curses! Foiled again!
Hm, monsters. I have Bestiary 1, 2, 3 and soon 4, Inner Sea Bestiary, Tome of Horrors Complete, Tome of Horrors 4, Midgard Bestiary. I think I'm monstered out for now.
So Creature Codex huh? Sounds interesting, especially as the writers are being allowed to go wherever they want within a specified word count.
Just watch out if this thing goes to stretch goals; these things tend to get delayed a lot, and stretch goals extend that period considerably.
Wasn't there already a book with like 300 monsters in it?
Will these all be original?
Yep, the one he's been asking around about for the past month or so, I think. Which I've been eagerly looking forward to ever since he started asking what people wanted.
This is one that I really want to hear what fans wanted. To often I hear a monster book is good, but there was some fluff monsters in it to pad the book out. I want NO FLUFF MONSTERS. I want every monster to be something you would and SHOULD be afraid of.
Hm, monsters. I have Bestiary 1, 2, 3 and soon 4, Inner Sea Bestiary, Tome of Horrors Complete, Tome of Horrors 4, Midgard Bestiary. I think I'm monstered out for now.
That is cool. We hope that you might change when you see some of the Threshold goals but we understand if you are full up on monsters.
So Creature Codex huh? Sounds interesting, especially as the writers are being allowed to go wherever they want within a specified word count.
Just watch out if this thing goes to stretch goals; these things tend to get delayed a lot, and stretch goals extend that period considerably.
That was something that we were initially concerned about but due to the word count we choose for the writer it should not be an issue for them to handle working on it.
Good luck! I don't think I'll be backing, after 40 Kickstarters already...
As I said before I hope we can change you mind on this one especially with our limited Early Bird $10 and $15 rewards were you get a PDF version of the Creature Codex and all the PDF threshold goals. You can thank Fred Hicks of Evil hat Games for that inspiration.
Wasn't there already a book with like 300 monsters in it?
Yes There was and that was the Tomb of Horrors series by Frog God Games. The big difference between their books at Creature Codex we are asking for ALL 3PP of Pathfinder to work on this. We want this to be the Ultimate team project/book where each 3PP get to show themselves off to people who may be interested in them, but never actually pick up one of their products. One book to get a sampling of the 3PP out there.
Will these all be original?
Yes. I don't want to recycle things we have already seen. These are to be all new and interesting monsters, templates, traps, poisons, diseases, feats and/or spells for Creature Codex.
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Ok cool, then.
And what you said in the video regarding campaign settings is exactly what went through my mind...
Something I have to wonder: Will there be any quality control to ensure it doesn't end up with 15 intelligent armoured bear creatures, for example?
Personally I don't think that will happen. I mean we are letting these people create whatever their hear desires. Do you think these people would all have the same idea or those that are THAT similar? If there is an issue like that that comes up we would inform those that did it to submit something else. But like I said I find that hard to believe something like this would happen.
BTW, something I'd really like to see are more creatures native to the Positive energy plane, and more creatures with the time subtype.
Do me a favor and place that request in this thread. That is where I am asking the writer to check out and see what people have requested monster wise.
Hm, monsters. I have Bestiary 1, 2, 3 and soon 4, Inner Sea Bestiary, Tome of Horrors Complete, Tome of Horrors 4, Midgard Bestiary. I think I'm monstered out for now.That is cool. We hope that you might change when you see some of the Threshold goals but we understand if you are full up on monsters.
I'll certainly check it out.
Interesting...I can never have enough monsters.
Did I miss the it in the video, or was there mention of the estimated number of monsters?
Looks like we can add Epic Meepo to the list of writer who are going to provide some interesting monsters to this project.
Did I miss the it in the video, or was there mention of the estimated number of monsters?
I have not announce it due to the fact every writer has a word count limit versus monster count. Plus since we are looking at a low kickstarter goal (most likely under $8K) so we can add more threshold goals at regular intervals to keep people interested and energized on what we are doing.
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Creature Codex huh. Well. Good luck with it. I own the Tome of Horrors, but honestly the only time I get any use out of it is when Paizo use the creatures in it in an AP or module, so I've got very little interest in this.
I'm in the same boat as TOZ anyway, I spend way too much money on Kickstarter as it is. Nearly $600 on Cthulhu Wars, and most of my other contributions are in the $50 to $200 range. So I'm currently both monstered and kickstartered out.
The possibility of Hero Lab files are about the only thing that'd really make me think again about it, as it's only since Tome of Horrors got a Hero Lab pack that it has started to see any use whatsoever (prior to that I used to just say "screw it" and throw in the closest monster I could think of from the bestiaries so that I could still use HLs combat tracker).
EDIT: I should point out that my opinion so far is based on reading what people have summarised of the announcement. I don't have time to actually watch it right now as I'm in the midst of getting ready for work. I'll watch it this afternoon and see if that has any bearing on what I think.
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Holy crap guys.
I've never seen people so deeply offended by the act of being coy.
I can't imagine how your respective significant others handle it.
Fun Fact: Not everyone has a significant other. After three train wreck relationships in 5 years, I'm an emotional cripple and generally happier without one.
I wouldn't say I'm offended by it. More irritated, and in that instance more by the responses to people raising their concerns than anything else. As Zeister said, this kind of marketing is becoming more prevalent, and some of us just find it annoying.
I didn't have a huge amount of interest in it to start with, and the actual announcement hasn't really changed that. I'll still give the kickstarter project a look, and hope they do well, but eh.
I'm in the same boat as TOZ anyway, I spend way too much money on Kickstarter as it is. Nearly $600 on Cthulhu Wars, and most of my other contributions are in the $50 to $200 range. So I'm currently both monstered and kickstartered out.
Since this is starting in 2014 and we are going to have several lower cost donor options, I hope that might make it possible for you to support this kickstarter.
The possibility of Hero Lab files are about the only thing that'd really make me think again about it, as it's only since Tome of Horrors got a Hero Lab pack that it has started to see any use whatsoever (prior to that I used to just say "screw it" and throw in the closest monster I could think of from the bestiaries so that I could still use HLs combat tracker).
Depending how well this does it very much may be an option.
I recall being at least slightly more enthusiastic about the project when you first mentioned it to me.
I'd like to express my hope that, apart from geographic terms, the content will be pure, bona fide OGC.
That's usually the case. I can't remember the last time I saw a monster book where the monsters themselves weren't open content. I know I want my monsters to be open content, that's for sure.
I'd like to express my hope that, apart from geographic terms, the content will be pure, bona fide OGC.
I'm sure some of it will be, but since some of the monsters will be coming out of particular company campaign setting and use their intellectual property, so some will not be OGC.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Look at Legendary Games's previews. Cryptic but relevant utterances, pieces of artwork, that kind of thing.
"SOMETHING COOL IS COMING" is not how you do it.
Thanks for the kind words EML. Not to derail the thread, but Imma just leave this right here.
Just watched the video. Okay. Sounds good. I was admittedly initially uninterested in "yet another monster" book. Your enthusiasm and sales pitch has turned me around. I won't have the money for print most likely, but I'm sure I'll wish I did.
Can I suggest Tim Connors and Frank Gori/GM Solspiral for some more authors? You might have already contacted either of them. Tim's work for Kobold Press is impressive (skincrawler dragon anyone?) and Fank's "Old Hat Monsters" column for the KP blog show him to be a designer of merit.
Was Richard Pett mentioned? Ben McFarland - Midgard monsters generally? Jim Groves? Crystal Frasier? How about some of Rite Publishing's stable - Kaidan looks good for monsters (Michael Tumey/Jonathan McAnulty...)
Being entirely impressed by your Neo-Exodus art and graphics I'm sure this will look beautiful. Will a WAR cover be a stretch goal?
Please don't drive and do that again! ;)
Thanks for the kind words EML. Not to derail the thread, but Imma just leave this right here.Look at Legendary Games's previews. Cryptic but relevant utterances, pieces of artwork, that kind of thing.
"SOMETHING COOL IS COMING" is not how you do it.
Marketing done right by Legendary, no annoyances besides hinting towards being yet another monster manual.
Thanks for the kind words EML. Not to derail the thread, but Imma just leave this right here.Look at Legendary Games's previews. Cryptic but relevant utterances, pieces of artwork, that kind of thing.
"SOMETHING COOL IS COMING" is not how you do it.
Hmm, a Mythic section of the Creature Codex would be cool...
Thanks for the kind words EML. Not to derail the thread, but Imma just leave this right here.Look at Legendary Games's previews. Cryptic but relevant utterances, pieces of artwork, that kind of thing.
"SOMETHING COOL IS COMING" is not how you do it.
You sly dogs. :)
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Look at Legendary Games's previews. Cryptic but relevant utterances, pieces of artwork, that kind of thing.
"SOMETHING COOL IS COMING" is not how you do it.
So you don't take down your website and just leave a counter up, before announcing your new RPG?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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So you don't take down your website and just leave a counter up, before announcing your new RPG?Look at Legendary Games's previews. Cryptic but relevant utterances, pieces of artwork, that kind of thing.
"SOMETHING COOL IS COMING" is not how you do it.
:)