The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
A group of PCs and NPCs are talking and not in combat; they are 30 feet apart and they are all humans with unmodified speeds. One NPC charges a PC, drawing a dagger as part of his charge.
Questions
1. Was the PC flat-footed against this attack?
2. Was the charge performed as part of a surprise round?
My Thoughts
1. Yes, but only by RAI. I have always ruled that you are flat footed against you are not expecting. Unless you are actively considering someone an enemy, you aren't expecting them to attack you. This last part seems to be firmly in house rule territory.
2. No, by RAW, although I would houserule it as Yes. There is no surprise round if the combatants are aware of eachother (not if they are aware of eachother as having hostile intent, which is the way I rule it). If we accept No by RAW, how do you even resolve someone initiating hostilities (by RAW)?
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Charge is a combat action. If he's charging, you're in combat. That means everyone has already rolled initiative and you're tracking rounds before the charge takes place. He only actually charges once it's his turn.
So all we really need to determine is whether this is a surprise round or the first regular round. That's a simple matter of determining awareness: usually some sort of check, most often Perception.
Remember this, as all proper interpretation of surprise rounds depends on it: there is no such thing as attacking outside of combat.
Yes, this would probably be a surprise round because the PCs were not expecting to be attacked, thus they were...surprised. If this was a surprise round then the PC was flat-footed against this attack barring some ability to negate that.
Charge is a combat action. If he's charging, you're in combat. That means everyone has already rolled initiative and you're tracking rounds before the charge takes place. He only actually charges once it's his turn.
So all we really need to determine is whether this is a surprise round or the first regular round. That's a simple matter of determining awareness: usually some sort of check, most often Perception.
This question was inspired by a thread about initiative in the advice section of these boards.
If someone suddenly decides to attack, that does not mean that initiative has already been rolled. If you mean that it should, at that point, be rolled and normal rounds be entered... how do you deal with those who have a higher initiative than the person who suddenly decided to attack? Do they get to act later despite having a better initiative? Do you assume that they delay their turns? Do you ask that they roll initiative and then look at their dumbfound faces as they have no idea an attack is coming a few people into the initiative order?
As for determining awareness, my situation involves everyone knowing that the other characters are there. The question is whether or not a surprise attack is, well, part of a surprise round (in which only the attacker and people like diviners would act). If your loving wife of 30 years suddenly stabs you in the eye with a fork, do you see it coming just because you are sitting at the table eating with her (and thus not flat footed, assuming you beat her initiative check)?
Remember this, as all proper interpretation of surprise rounds depends on it: there is no such thing as attacking outside of combat.
Of course, that is why I am asking about whether or not a sudden attack should be a surprise round or a normal round...
Yes the PC was flat-footed against this attack.
Yes, this would probably be a surprise round because the PCs were not expecting to be attacked, thus they were...surprised.
Like I said, this seems common sense. What is the specific RAW to support this? You are not surprised by enemies you are aware of, even if you are not aware they are going to attack you (at least that is what my current reading of RAW supports).
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Yes the PC was flat-footed against this attack.
Unless the PC succeeded on the check to determine awareness* and beat the charger in initiative, in which case no, he's not flat-footed.
*If this is the typical "negotiations gone south" situation, probably a Sense Motive check.
Yes the PC was flat-footed against this attack.
Unless the PC succeeded on the check to determine awareness* and beat the charger in initiative, in which case no, he's not flat-footed.
*If this is the typical "negotiations gone south" situation, probably a Sense Motive check.
Which is why I edited my statement. Because it is probably a surprise round, but some PCs may be able to recognize what is about to happen with a sense motive or perception check and be prepared for it. They would then get to act in the surprise rounds and others wouldn't. This would also apply to NPCs in my opinion, unless they had some code word or phrase or some such and knew that when it was said that one specific NPC was going to charge the PCs.
I would consider it a surprise round. I would start off by calling for each player to roll Perception and/or Sense Motive. Those who pass their check get to act in the surprise round.
Assuming at least one PC succeeds on their check, I narrate that something tips them off and I call for initiative stating who can act and who has been surprised. Any PCs who fall higher in the initiative than our would-be knifer can take their turn before the knifer's action is resolved. Any whose initiative is lower than the knifer's would be flat-footed, although they would still get to act in the surprise round.
In subsequent rounds, everyone acts on the initiative count they rolled when I first called for initiative.
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If you mean that it should, at that point, be rolled and normal rounds be entered... how do you deal with those who have a higher initiative than the person who suddenly decided to attack?
He "telegraphed his intentions", as they say. While he tried to be sneaky and surprise the other people, he utterly failed. That's how I would handle it.
Basically, just because someone decides to attack "surprisingly", doesn't mean they are going to be able to pull it off. Their low initiative roll represents this. If my SO picks up her fork, looks at me with hatred in her eyes before lunging, there's a chance I might pick up on that and avoid getting stabbed.
If it's as someone said "negotiations gone south", then it's even less likely to be a surprise situation because you have someone who becomes so enraged they decide to attack. They are not trying to be sneaky or hide their intentions at all, which is what would be required to achieve surprise.
I've considered ideas like allowing bluff opposed by sense motive or perception rolls, but those all tread dangerously close to telling players they can't be wary because I just decide they can't. Especially if the NPCs are not well known and trusted, why would the character not be wary, in a world where everyone walks around with weapons?
However, all of that depends on the 2 people being close, with quickdraw. Charging 30 ft? no. I would just flat rule that no surprise. By the time the NPC makes it to the players, they pretty much know they are being attacked.
I think we all agree that Sense Motive should be used to adjudicate whether someone is aware of the person about to strike. This would, assuredly, be opposed by the NPCs bluff with modifiers depending just how out of the blue the attack is (maybe using "the lie is impossible -20" for my example of one's loving wife suddenly stabbing you in the eye with a fork).
And I guess we all agree that this is what is meant by 'awareness' in the description of the surprise round? The reason I bring this up is that the perception skill explicitly states its use for the purposes of a surprise round while bluff does not (so, the reading seemingly supported by everyone goes into RAI territory).
Just something I wanted to hammer out.
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If someone suddenly decides to attack, that does not mean that initiative has already been rolled. If you mean that it should, at that point, be rolled and normal rounds be entered... how do you deal with those who have a higher initiative than the person who suddenly decided to attack? Do they get to act later despite having a better initiative? Do you assume that they delay their turns? Do you ask that they roll initiative and then look at their dumbfound faces as they have no idea an attack is coming a few people into the initiative order?
If someone intends to attack, you roll initiative.
Then (before ANYONE has a turn), you determine what it would take for someone to realize what was about to happen: possibly a Perception check to see him reach for his weapon, possibly a Sense Motive check to realize that his posture and facial expression means he's had enough, or whatever.
Anyone who fails the check and/or gets a lower initiative result than the instigator is doing what you seem to be assuming everyone should be doing: standing there going "What the...?" and being flat-footed. That's what a PC not acting in the surprise round means. But to get to that point where someone's attacking before someone else can react, you first have to roll initiative and determine awareness.
If your loving wife of 30 years suddenly stabs you in the eye with a fork, do you see it coming just because you are sitting at the table eating with her (and thus not flat footed, assuming you beat her initiative check)?
I would get some sort of check to realize what she was doing before it was too late (with modifiers for age, how much I trust her, how well I know her body language by now, whether or not there's poison in my food, etc). If I fail, we still both rolled initiative, I just don't get a turn on round 1 and hope she rolls really low on her eye-stab since I'm not allowed to wear armor at the dinner table anymore. But if I make it, then I'm aware and get a turn as normal and could potentially act before her despite her being the one to initiate hostilities.
If someone suddenly decides to attack, that does not mean that initiative has already been rolled. If you mean that it should, at that point, be rolled and normal rounds be entered...
If someone intends to attack, you roll initiative.
This seems to work out exactly the same way and we just have different way of putting it? i.e. this is just semantics?
Then (before ANYONE has a turn), you determine what it would take for someone to realize what was about to happen: possibly a Perception check to see him reach for his weapon, possibly a Sense Motive check to realize that his posture and facial expression means he's had enough, or whatever.
Anyone who fails the check and/or gets a lower initiative result than the instigator is doing what you seem to be assuming everyone should be doing: standing there going "What the...?" and being flat-footed. That's what a PC not acting in the surprise round means. But to get to that point where someone's attacking before someone else can react, you first have to roll initiative and determine awareness.
If your loving wife of 30 years suddenly stabs you in the eye with a fork, do you see it coming just because you are sitting at the table eating with her (and thus not flat footed, assuming you beat her initiative check)?I would get some sort of check to realize what she was doing before it was too late (with modifiers for age, how much I trust her, how well I know her body language by now, whether or not there's poison in my food, etc). If I fail, we still both rolled initiative, I just don't get a turn on round 1 and hope she rolls really low on her eye-stab since I'm not allowed to wear armor at the dinner table anymore. But if I make it, then I'm aware and get a turn as normal (and if there are no unaware dinner guests, then that means all participants are aware so the attack is part of the normal round instead of a surprise round) and could potentially act before her despite her being the one to initiate hostilities.
This is the meat of the matter. Any action the non-wife character takes would be based on the description of the results of their successful sense motive check. This could create meta-game problems, given the fact that the DM has asked for initiative checks (I assume no sense motive check is going to tell you something specific as "your wife has an I'm-going-to-stab-you-in-the-eye-with-this-fork look"), but I suppose it is the most proper way to do things.
This also solidifies my resolve in the thread that inspired this one that initiative in social situations is crazy.
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This is the meat of the matter. Any action the non-wife character takes would be based on the description of the results of their successful sense motive check. This could create meta-game problems, given the fact that the DM has asked for initiative checks (I assume no sense motive check is going to tell you something specific as "your wife has an I'm-going-to-stab-you-in-the-eye-with-this-fork look"), but I suppose it is the most proper way to do things.
It doesn't have to be as specific as "she looks like she's going to stab you in the eye with a fork". After all, a PC does not become flat-footed or fail to act in the surprise round just because the enemy has not indicated which organ is going to be stabbed and/or has not yet indicated which of their weapons they intend to do said stabbing with. All you need is "she looks like she wants to do you harm", and BAM! You're "aware" and can act normally that round. You may not know whether you should be casting shield or readying an action to counterspell, but you've at least earned your chance (depending also on initiative result) to not be flat-footed.
As for which check to make, I'd suggest a "reverse feint check".
Use sense motive against DC = 10 + attacker's HD + attacker's CHA mod
And adjust the check by circumstance modifiers depending on the "out-of-the-blue"-ness
There are enough rules already. Upthread, I suggested just using the existent bluff modifiers for lies. I don't see any reason to go further than that.
@Jiggy: If said "she looks like she wants to do you harm" I'm sure players of mine would ask "how exactly?", but your point is taken.
I dislike the use of the bluff/sense motive check. I believe it to be ill used in this setting.
First, you penalize high initiative/high perception characters that likely have low/lower sense motive in their build.
Second, to bluff takes AT LEAST one round.
Third, you create this atmosphere of just saying "I attack" anytime there is a conversation because you feel it will give you the edge in the upcoming fight.
Fourth, all parties involved are aware of one another. No surprise round.
I dislike the use of the bluff/sense motive check. I believe it to be ill used in this setting.
First, you penalize high initiative/high perception characters that likely have low/lower sense motive in their build.
Second, to bluff takes AT LEAST one round.
Third, you create this atmosphere of just saying "I attack" anytime there is a conversation because you feel it will give you the edge in the upcoming fight.
Fourth, all parties involved are aware of one another. No surprise round.
What skill would you have oppose the perception check?
Or are you saying it's impossible to surprise someone who isn't expecting an attack?
Unless I am missing something, some of the above are moot points. To answer the OP's specific example: "One NPC charges a PC, drawing a dagger as part of his charge."
Yeah, that's not gonna happen.
Because: "In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs."
Best the NPC could do is make a ranged attack with a drawn weapon, OR draw and fire IF he had Quick Draw.
Why no charge?
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action."
To the best of my knowledge, charge has never been allowed as a permissible action during the surprise round.
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Unless I am missing something, some of the above are moot points. To answer the OP's specific example: "One NPC charges a PC, drawing a dagger as part of his charge."
Yeah, that's not gonna happen.
Because: "In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs."
Best the NPC could do is make a ranged attack with a drawn weapon, OR draw and fire IF he had Quick Draw.
Why no charge?
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action."
To the best of my knowledge, charge has never been allowed as a permissible action during the surprise round.
Finish reading the charge rules; it's just a couple inches down from where you took the line you cited. ;)