Say you knew a really impoverished spellcaster (in this case, a simulacrum of a much higher level spellcaster who was sent on a long term 'fire and forget' mission by her creator). She's got a modest travelling spellbook, a few basic tools, but not much else---maybe the equivalent of 1000 gold, tops. She's not your ally as such, but she's reasonably favorably disposed towards you, and she's really keen to make some money. She is VERY risk averse, as any damage she sustains costs crazy amounts of money to repair and she knows that she's a simulacrum and has a strong will to continue to live (or exist for those of a philosophical bent). Mechanically, she's a homebrew mystic theurge-like class with equivalent casting at 7th level in both wizard and priest lists, caster level 10 in each. She is NOT built as an adventurer, she's mostly an administrator and magical researcher. Her communication bandwidth with her creator is really thin---like 25 words a day or thereabouts. Her goal is to build the logistical capacity to push large amounts of basic supplies through the gates she expects to start opening up periodically a year or two from now. Her secondary goal is to develop a network of operatives to support her primary goal.
You're a low level band of adventurers seeking your fortune. You're in the 1st-3rd level range. You've got a large number of targets available to you that you might pursue as your base of operations is very much 'keep on the borderlands' sans the keep (it's just barely a village, but it does have some defenses like ditches and palisades).
You can easily reach many of your objectives in an hour or two, so any sort of long duration magics would be of great benefit to you.
What would you be willing to pay or offer to her for say a greater magical weapon or magical vestment? Are there any other spells you'd pay for? Assume that she knows there's no way in hell you could afford list price. Would you try to negotiate a different deal with her?
For me it'd be barganing time. I'd look to find out what she wants and if I could help supply it. You mention she's looking for operatives to help collect these items she programmed to supply to her creator. So I'd be looking to do some deals and then let the diplomacy rolls fall where they may. :)
Cool idea by the way, good campaign starter
So what would be your opening offer? You know she's keen to sell.
You could probably even get her to accept contingent payment, she's that keen. In fact she's probably as keen as you'd be if you were a 10th level character with basically no gear...less even than a poorly equipped NPC class member would have at that level.
These Elena simulacrums btw have been made in fairly significant numbers. Some even were sent to random worlds through gates as what would be described in your average RTS strategy game as 'harvesters'. They know they are simulacrums but think of themselves as persons and generally don't undertake anything terribly risky without direct orders from their creator. Alignment-wise, they're Neutral Good. In terms of appearance, think reasonably attractive but not beautiful--if PF had a comeliness stat, she'd be 12 or 13 or so. Her diplomacy is pretty high, being one of her strongest suits, but she's unlikely to negotiate too sharply because she wants repeat business.
Well, as I said I'd try and find out what she wants and from that figure out what I, as a low level character, could provide.
I'd also need to know what she has to offer. Straight coin? Spell enhancements? If so, what ones? Gear? Magical or non-magical?
It'd also depend on what character, class/race/alignment, that I was playing on how exactly I'd proceed.
Let's say I'm a lvl 1 fighter and she has a masterwork sword that would certainly make my life easier, but I don't have the gold for it. My offer would be it's value in goods she is looking for, such as a certain amount of a rare red mushroom that grows in a cave that I already planned on exploring. Of course I'd need the sword upfront to be able to successfully explore the cave. ;)
EWHM wrote: So what would be your opening offer? ... My initial offer would be:
Tell you what, if you will provide each of us with a several hours buff each active mission day, we will spend 1/4 of our mission days on tasks for you. (That's assuming no costly material components.)
I wouldn't expect to get that, but I think that is where I'd start.
Assume you're a party of fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric.
Assume she wants coin but is open to other offers---the same sorts of offers you might be in her position.
Let's take a simple example. You use a greatsword and your buddy the rogue uses two shortswords. Your friend the cleric uses a long spear. What would it be worth to you to have those 4 weapons greater magic weaponed (+2) for 10 hours? Assume 10 hours is plenty to complete whatever strike mission you decided upon. Also, what would it be worth to have your armor magic vestmented (also +2) for the same 10 hours?
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote: EWHM wrote: So what would be your opening offer? ... My initial offer would be:
Tell you what, if you will provide each of us with a several hours buff each active mission day, we will spend 1/4 of our mission days on tasks for you. (That's assuming no costly material components.)
I wouldn't expect to get that, but I think that is where I'd start. You know, if she liked you, she might actually agree to that, although her need is more for coin than for service. Would you agree instead to a 1/5 cut on treasure obtained? Assume that you're a 4 person party, level 1 or 2, and she offers you the following:
greater magic weapon, 4 weapons, 10 hour duration +2
magic vestment, 4 items, +2, duration 10 hours
Any condition removal at the village you're using as your base camp that she is capable of, component cost only (she can do such removals on with up to level 4 clerical spells).
4 greater magic weapon spells lasting 10 hours each? If my often faulty math is correct it brings the value to 1200 gold. Something that a bunch of low levels wouldn't have, but she knows this.
As the player I would ask the dm what type of hual do we think we'll make on this strike run? Then I'd do Kydeem's math and offer her 1/4 of the take. Half would be the max offer as anything more than that the run becomes pretty much an xp run with little loot as it would be going to her.
Ok, so I presume that the offer she'd make is one that many 1st or 2nd level parties would be willing to accept? (20% of the take, like she was a 5th party member).
You're correct as to the list price (300 gp a piece). She knows that even were she in a metropolis, she's not going to be able to sell a spell for list more than once or twice a month.
In the particular case of the party, they're somewhat in luck as her long term objectives aren't too far off what the party members likely want. She recognizes the village that the players are from as one that has immense agricultural and resource potential and she really wants to stay given that the future gates she's expected to supply will almost certainly open very close to it. So what she really wants is for the PCs to open a supply and trade route to the nearest large coastal city---or at least city at a major crossroads or river network so that it'll be viable for the farmers to greatly expand their production. You see, in order to harvest, you've got to reap, and that is a LOT of work. People plant according to what they need and what they think they can profitably sell eventually. So any adventuring activity that the PCs do in the area that is at least marginally successful serves her long term goals.
Another question---say you're the simulacrum. What do you do to try to raise money to equip yourself and carry out your mission? Assume you're used to a fairly high standard of living and need such to maintain decent morale.
EWHM wrote: ...her need is more for coin than for service. Would you agree instead to a 1/5 cut on treasure obtained? ... I would probably agree to 20% take for:
greater magic weapon, 4 weapons, 10 hour duration +2
OR
magic vestment, 4 items, +2, duration 10 hours
OR
Any condition removal at the village you're using as your base camp that she is capable of, component cost only (she can do such removals on with up to level 4 clerical spells).
All 3 of those groups together at level 1-2, is a hugely amazing bargain.
Actually it is such a good bargain that I would probably be expecting her to betray me at some point.
I think given the low level of the party and thus their own low gold levels, plus the lack of knowledge of whether their excursions will be successful if it were me I'd offer her 10% of the parties loot found, expecting her to bargain up to 15-20% perhaps.
Kydeem,
She can pretty easily do that with her complement of 3rd and 4th level spells. If you're offering a percent of the take rather than coin per spell, she's motivated to see you succeed, and would thus be inclined to give you both the MV and the GMW spells.
Of course she has her own agenda, and she's subject to the infrequent and short commands of her creator, but she's unlikely to play the BBEG, especially considering how brittle a simulacrum is.
The next big question is, at what level would you want to negotiate fee for service rather than a percentage? Obviously if your party was 10th level, you wouldn't accept 20% for strictly long-range services, probably not even at 7th level. There's a break point somewhere, anyone care to take a shot at identifying it?
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I think you're approaching this backwards. You're asking, how much for the PCs to hire Elena? When it should be, how much for Elena to hire the PCs?
Have her offer the PCs long-term jobs as her agents. She supplies them with a base of operations, food, clothing, and magical buffs. They undertake missions in support of her long-term goals. She takes 20% off the top of their treasure, they split the rest for their own pay.
Then she can give them missions as she becomes aware of opportunities in the region (due to the network of informants she's building anyway).
And there you go.
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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
That assumes a lot more liveliness and initiative than I would allow for simulacra in my settings. For me at the most they're like the duplicate Mr. Atoz's in that old Star Trek episode "All Our Yesterdays".
Why not just use a real impoverished spellcaster of appropriate level? Being a wizard doesn't automatically mean riches, especially if you don't have the courage for adventuring, and don't have the social connections for a court position.
Tinalles,
You could look at it that way I suppose, but she knows that adventurers can be a prickly lot---her real self, not the simulacrum, has dealt with them before pretty frequently on Imperial business. She knows that a lot of adventurers are very very wary of 'Taking the King's Schilling', especially when they really don't know the King or His ultimate objectives. So at least initially she'll try to allay any fears they have by simply offering her assistance at a price. If later on the players want to work for her or form a firmer alliance she's open to that, but she doesn't want to be perceived as offering a 'golden handcuff'. She's been there and done that (albeit not as a simulacrum) and experienced some rather negative outcomes (her creator IS Neutral Good, but note that NG is the most Machiavellian of the good alignments, and her creator's Emperor is more realpolitik than that by a good margin).
LazarX,
This particular spellcaster made an awful lot of simulacra. Generally I assume that a simulacrum will behave largely as the original would (knowing they're a simulacrum and thus very brittle) unless you directly command them otherwise. In practice this limits a lot of the abuses of the spell (I also limit the level/hit dice of the thing duplicated to 1x your level, not 2x, so the final product always has half or less of your own level).
I could use a real spellcaster fallen on hard times I suppose, and for the purposes of this discussion, that'd answer most of my questions, but the simulacrum requires less suspension of disbelief resources from a world-building standpoint. Nearly every mini-me simulacrum will be impoverished.
EWHM wrote: Kydeem,
She can pretty easily do that with her complement of 3rd and 4th level spells. If you're offering a percent of the take rather than coin per spell, she's motivated to see you succeed, and would thus be inclined to give you both the MV and the GMW spells.
Of course she has her own agenda, and she's subject to the infrequent and short commands of her creator, but she's unlikely to play the BBEG, especially considering how brittle a simulacrum is.
The next big question is, at what level would you want to negotiate fee for service rather than a percentage? Obviously if your party was 10th level, you wouldn't accept 20% for strictly long-range services, probably not even at 7th level. There's a break point somewhere, anyone care to take a shot at identifying it?
I'm not saying you have to play her as betraying them. I'm just saying the deal is so good that that is what I would be worried was happening.
But maybe you should make it a sliding scale.
Just the magic vestments at 1st level.
The magic vestment and condition removals once they are on 2nd level difficulty missions.
Finally magic vestments, condition removal, and greater magic weapon once they are on 3rd level missions.
I would probably start to become dissatisfied with the arrangement around 5th level. But maybe not. Two complete sets of +3 magic items (which is basically what she is providing since all the missions are so close) is really powerful and economical up until around 7-8 level.
first of all, the wizard is going to want to trade spells, as they will both likely have different spells in their wizard books.
if she can make potions, offering to buy in bulk for 60% of list may be useful, which would give her a 5gp profit per cure light wounds potion, and haggle from there.
i would put the break point at level 5. once you get to that point, the casting is not as useful, and her capacity as a researcher has much more potential. item creation also becomes more significant at that point.
+2, not +3, but yes, they are very nice. Remember that by 8th level the party's cleric or mage can duplicate those.
So let's say you're 5th level. You know that Elena would still love to sell to you, but she's not worth a 20% cut of the treasure for her passive investment anymore. 5th level parties RARELY purchase precast spells in my experience, as the price to reward just isn't favorable. What would you pay at 5th level for such spells? Assume the list price is 300 gp per spell but like health care costs, pretty much nobody pays list except the truly desperate?
If she offered the usual bundle plus the condition removal 'insurance' for 500 gp would you take it? Assume you're doing something of typical difficulty and remuneration for a 5th level party of 4.
Xenon,
I don't think she can do potions, but I do know she can do scrolls, wands, magic arms&armor and wondrous items. Like most players, she'd of course be willing to swap spells one for one (some of my players will swap two spells for one sometimes, and, curiously enough, they tend to amass the largest spellbooks). She'd definitely be game for things like that. I do generally use variant magic crafting rules in my games though, generally making the process a LOT slower but less feat intensive.
Imagine that there are a bunch of players in my game that you don't know personally. Elena's simulacrum is essentially like one of them. She'd be inclined to accept most deals that a PC would accept from someone who wasn't in their party or a close friend of theirs.
You said caster level 10 in each. So that would be a +3.
Since she is doing it every day from someplace close enough that we can have it up all the time. I would look at it as saving me from having to buy a +3 armor 9000 gps and +3 weapon 18000 gps.
So I would look at it as she has effectively increased the wealth by 27,000 gps for all 4 PC's. Is that worth 20%. Carp yes!
Plus all the condition removals; poisoned, permanent negative levels, lycanthropy, diseases, etc... If you get those very often that is also extremely valuable.
If you say they are only +2, that is still 12,000 gps equivalent.
Like all things, it depends on what you need and how bad you need it.
How much would you pay for a gallon of water, right now?
Then think how much you'd pay for a gallon of water after 4 days in the desert, with no water around, you can no longer sweat and you haven't had to "relieve yourself" in 2 days. How much would you pay for water then?
Instead of that extreme, say you're with your wife/girlfriend/etc at a fair. It's hot and you see that water bottles are $2 each and you scoff. After 2 hours, your companion is not happy, thirsty and miserable. Then you see water bottles are $4. would you pay that?
Hell yes you would
Kydeem, I believe that GMW is +2 at 10th, she'd need 2 higher caster level to get it to +3.
Remember that PCs will be able to cast their own GMW at 5th level and will eventually get their own magical weapons also. Also, by 5th level they can do most of their own condition removal, moreso by 7th.
Magic Weapon, Greater
School transmutation; Level cleric 4, paladin 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (powdered lime and carbon)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one weapon or 50 projectiles (all of which must be together at the time of casting)
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
Alternatively, you can affect as many as 50 arrows, bolts, or bullets. The projectiles must be of the same kind, and they have to be together (in the same quiver or other container). Projectiles, but not thrown weapons, lose their transmutation after they are used. Treat shuriken as projectiles, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.
BB36 wrote: Like all things, it depends on what you need and how bad you need it.
How much would you pay for a gallon of water, right now?
Then think how much you'd pay for a gallon of water after 4 days in the desert, with no water around, you can no longer sweat and you haven't had to "relieve yourself" in 2 days. How much would you pay for water then?
Instead of that extreme, say you're with your wife/girlfriend/etc at a fair. It's hot and you see that water bottles are $2 each and you scoff. After 2 hours, your companion is not happy, thirsty and miserable. Then you see water bottles are $4. would you pay that?
Hell yes you would
BB36, Been there, done that, have the wife and kids. Buying spells at list price is typically between the desert case and the wife & kids at the fair case. What I'm trying to establish in this line of posts is what price would that 'water' bring when nobody is desperate for it---when it's a nice to have, so to speak, rather than an emergency or relationship emergency. Also I'm really interested from the simulacrum's POV from a world building standpoint.
Wierd, for some reason I was sure it was +1 per 3 levels not 4. Sorry about that.
Oh well, that is still saving each PC 12,000 gps. If you are 7th level, that is adding the equivalent of 50% to your suggested wealth by level. Unless of course you as GM cut back on the treasure to be found (which is entirely valid).
Yes, the PC's can cast greater magic weapon. But will they? Most groups I have seen will not. They will dish out the 12,000 gps for 2 magic items and have a couple more fireballs or suggestions to use for the day.
Yes, the condition removals are most important at the lower levels. IF they have a cleric, oracle, paladin, or inquisitor with access to the right spells. Many groups do not. Then it becomes really valuable at higher levels because the creatures that apply conditions become very common.
Like I said, it wouldn't be as great beginning around 5th level. But I would still be willing to pay it up through 7th or maybe even 8th level. However, I'm sure many groups would not look at it the same way and would be unwilling to pay nearly that long.
Kydeem---I think it WAS +1/3 levels back in some previous edition---3.0 maybe?
Say you're a 5th-6th level party. Would the spell package plus condition removal insurance offer at 500 gp tempt your party? That's about half a typical encounter (CR=APL) at that level's treasure, perhaps a little less.
If you haven't noticed---I'm trying to build up what amounts to a demand curve for spellcasting services.
To me it is still a huge bargain. Your talking daily use of 12,000 gps worth of stuff for only 125 gps per person. As an adventurer, I'd pay that in a heart beat for as long as offered.
an aggregate demand curve would make some sense- you could even realistically model it, as there is a finite set of class/level/race/build. for each spell that could help, you will see a variable demand by class for that service.
WBL is the upper limit, with this expense falling under the 15% disposable section. level one doesnt have enough gold to matter. at level 2, each member of the group has 150gp max to spend on casting for that level. at level 3, they have 450gp each to spend (or 300 additional gold). if you know encounters per day, then you can find how much gold per day of casting.
now, the basic demand curve increases as price lowers. you want to find the point that aggregate demand meets your supply- but as your supply is larger than demand, thats a bit of a challenge. so, at what price could the commoner afford your services? a level one common with 1 rank of profession and a stat of 10 should have about 18gp per month after living expenses. thats 6 silver per day per person of disposable income that we can expect. so each spell availible needs to be priced on this scale, if you want to sell to commoners. you must sell to adventurers (a higher risk task) if you want to make more profit.
so, if you were to sell casting services for 1gp per spell level(plus material costs), that could work. you would get additional income of several gold per day, but would not sell all of your spells all the time. this is 1% of list price for this caster, and it is what the commoner economy can bear.
the only real reason why list price is so high, is because the typical wizard does not want to be bothered- the high price is how the wizard values his time. also a wizard will typically make more money crafting items on commission.
Xenon,
When my PCs try to sell spells, I use this convention:
Rarely, someone will come to you with desperate need for a particular spell, right now. In those cases you get 10xLvl*CL
If there is reasonable demand, but not at list price---as in the example we're discussing here, I suspect you can get 1xLVL*CL ...averaged out with a lot of variance
If you're pushing on a rope...like you're selling sleep spells to merchants with big families that have a bunch of manic kids who JUST WON'T go to sleep (Been there in the real world), I bet you could get 1/10 *LVL * CL.
Your estimates come out pretty close to mine all things considered.
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