Feats gone.... any coming in APG

[KenderKin]

I am "wondering" what happened to the "feat tree" for the two-handed swinger combat style.

I am talking about the PF playtest

Overhand Chop (Combat)
When wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can deliver
a devastating blow.
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single attack with
a two-handed melee weapon. If you hit, roll damage normally
but add double your Strength bonus to the damage
roll.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength
modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.

Backswing (Combat)
You are skilled at using your return swing to deal additional
damage your foes.
Prerequisites: Overhand Chop, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a twohanded
melee weapon, add double your Strength bonus to
the damage roll of your first attack. If your base attack bonus
is +11 or higher, add triple your Strength bonus to the
damage roll of your first attack.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength
modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.

Devastating Blow (Combat)
Your strike hits with devastating accuracy.
Prerequisites: Backswing, Overhand Chop, base attack
bonus +11.
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single melee attack
with a two-handed melee weapon at a –5 penalty. If you
hit, you score a critical hit. Special weapon abilities that
activate only on a critical hit, such as vorpal and flaming
burst, do not activate.

This really focused on 1 BBEG snd individual combat.

Now the other option(s)
power attack
cleave
great cleave
& whirlwind attack
all really focus on "groups" of opponents.

[TriOmegaZero]

It was decided not to include those in PF Core. No idea if they will be in the APG.

[Navarion]

Huh, I still use an old 3.X feat that allows adding double the strength bonus to all two-handed attacks instead of 1.5x (Two-Handed Power Strike). Seems fair to me, especially now that two weapon fighters can get full strength bonus on the off-hand and rend.

[Hexcaliber]

In my group we found those feats to be stupid good. On PC's the dev blow was too good with a scythe and on NPC's (like giants) the other two feats made the game a bit too dangerous.

I'd like to see those brought back as abilities for a PrC or as epic level feats. Just my opinion.

[Blake Duffey]

I really liked those feats in the beta. The two-weapon PC has a bunch of feats to choose from, the two-handed guy has none.

[divineshadow]

Hexcaliber wrote:

In my group we found those feats to be stupid good. On PC's the dev blow was too good with a scythe and on NPC's (like giants) the other two feats made the game a bit too dangerous.

I'd like to see those brought back as abilities for a PrC or as epic level feats. Just my opinion.

I know I play a ghost elf hellknight and well soon tobe and wield the exotic scythe from ebberon I can't remember its name right now and don't have books near my gm would kill me if I wanted to take those feats heck at lvl 2 I managed to crit for 88 fraking pts it made me sad I killed the bbeg and mess up the. Plot cause the bad guy that was supposed to run and get away couldn't

[KenderKin]

I mean I think they needed a little editing or possibly even just two feats rather than all three, but the 2-handed swinger is being left out in the cold on this deal...

Yeah I know they had to fix archery and two-weapon fighting and sword&board and I think they did a good job.

Now back to the 2 handed swinger.......

[lastknightleft]

divineshadow wrote:

Hexcaliber wrote:

In my group we found those feats to be stupid good. On PC's the dev blow was too good with a scythe and on NPC's (like giants) the other two feats made the game a bit too dangerous.

I'd like to see those brought back as abilities for a PrC or as epic level feats. Just my opinion.

I know I play a ghost elf hellknight and well soon tobe and wield the exotic scythe from ebberon I can't remember its name right now and don't have books near my gm would kill me if I wanted to take those feats heck at lvl 2 I managed to crit for 88 fraking pts it made me sad I killed the bbeg and mess up the. Plot cause the bad guy that was supposed to run and get away couldn't

the talenta scythe?

[BobChuck]

Sure, it'd be nice if they added feats for Two-hander builds, but here's the thing: as things stand now, two-handers are already better at dealing damage than anything else in the game.

It's so bad, even freaking rogues do more damage with a strength-based two-hander build than a dex-based TWF or finesse build. Seriously; if you don't believe me, crunch the numbers and - this is crucial - assume he has to use his move action to actually move every few rounds. The half-orc with a falchion beats all other rogue damage builds, hands down.

So as cool as it would be to have feat support, Piazo can't add anything more to the Two-Hander "style" without either:
a) breaking the game, or
b) boosting the power of every other damage dealing style and giving blaster casters a boost too.

It's a good idea, but if you look past the surface 'absence' of such choices, the reasons for it become very clear. Two-handers don't have feat or prestige class support because they don't need it.

[Fatespinner]

BobChuck wrote:

So as cool as it would be to have feat support, Piazo can't add anything more to the Two-Hander "style" without either:

a) breaking the game, or
b) boosting the power of every other damage dealing style and giving blaster casters a boost too.

It's a good idea, but if you look past the surface 'absence' of such choices, the reasons for it become very clear. Two-handers don't have feat or prestige class support because they don't need it.

Well, instead of making the two-handed weapon more offensively powerful, why not add two-handed weapon feats that do something other than ramp up damage?

Reaver's Stance (Combat)
Prereq: BAB +6, Dazzling Display
Your battle stance involves large sweeping arcs of your blade even when not actively attacking.
Benefit: While wielding a two-handed weapon, your CMD increases by 2 against any creature whom you threaten in melee. Any creature who provokes an attack of opportunity from you by attempting a combat maneuver with you as the target suffers a -2 AC against the attack.

[divineshadow]

lastknightleft wrote:

the talenta scythe?

Yeah and I don't even use an oversized one as seems to be the style now I just power att

[KenderKin]

Fatespinner wrote:

BobChuck wrote:

So as cool as it would be to have feat support, Piazo can't add anything more to the Two-Hander "style" without either:

a) breaking the game, or
b) boosting the power of every other damage dealing style and giving blaster casters a boost too.

It's a good idea, but if you look past the surface 'absence' of such choices, the reasons for it become very clear. Two-handers don't have feat or prestige class support because they don't need it.

Well, instead of making the two-handed weapon more offensively powerful, why not add two-handed weapon feats that do something other than ramp up damage?

Reaver's Stance (Combat)
Prereq: BAB +6, Dazzling Display
Your battle stance involves large sweeping arcs of your blade even when not actively attacking.
Benefit: While wielding a two-handed weapon, your CMD increases by 2 against any creature whom you threaten in melee. Any creature who provokes an attack of opportunity from you by attempting a combat maneuver with you as the target suffers a -2 AC against the attack.

I like it it gives options to the 2-handed swinger....

I think overhand chop needs a comeback
You need to call it (ie declare it) and it only gives you one attack....

The other two seem to need to be replaced.....

I like "reavers" stance, but am not sure why dazzling display is a pre-requisite.......I would think overhand chop and +6 BAB would work....

I look forward to Paizo to get some feats for us two-handed swingers!

[Fatespinner]

KenderKin wrote:

I like "reavers" stance, but am not sure why dazzling display is a pre-requisite.......I would think overhand chop and +6 BAB would work....

Dazzling Display is a prerequisite because it involves using a display of martial prowess to intimidate attackers. Reaver's Stance is effectively doing the same thing, but passively: Your CMD increases because people are apprehensive to rush into the whirling blade you are constantly whipping around.

[KenderKin]

but it makes the route more feat intensive than

power attack/cleave/greater...

[Fergie]

BobChuck wrote:

Sure, it'd be nice if they added feats for Two-hander builds, but here's the thing: as things stand now, two-handers are already better at dealing damage than anything else in the game.

Yup.

I feel like 2 handed weapons are already too good. My half-orc with a greataxe is an amazing damage dealer, and he's a freakin' BARD! It is that bad!

I'm even debating limiting the power attack feats bonus to damage at 2X rather then 3X.

If you want to make 2 handed weapon feats, how about stuff that adds to AC, speed, or something like that rather then just upping damage off the charts.

[Xum]

Number crunching disagrees with 2 handed weapons being the best. They do need something, I'm not sure extra damage, but something IS necessary.

The only advantage of using 2 handed weapons today is that they are not feat intensive, they are not better than any other tree cause there isn't any for 2 handed. Something is needed.

[Hexcaliber]

Xum wrote:

Number crunching disagrees with 2 handed weapons being the best. They do need something, I'm not sure extra damage, but something IS necessary.

The only advantage of using 2 handed weapons today is that they are not feat intensive, they are not better than any other tree cause there isn't any for 2 handed. Something is needed.

If you're just crunching full round attacks then, on paper, two weapon wins out. In practice though, the opposite is true.

I ran an encounter last week on a steam paddle (early version of steam boat) while a couple of big nasties were swimming around the boat grabbing crew members and pulling them into the river. No one, not even the archers could get a full round in against them. The biggest damage dealer was a large river eel summoned to fight for the party. Times and a half strength won the day there (moray eel stats used for a river eel attacking with its bite).

I've always been surprised by the lack of a knockdown feat. That might work for two handers and not be over powered IMHO.