So I've talked with my GM about the value of diamond and since it's logical and the rules aren't explicit he says that diamond value is based not simply on mass but also "cut". Meaning that a 50gram Diamond may be many times the value of another @ 50 grams, because of the cut. I'm not against him on his thinking but the problem arises when a spell component is instead Diamond Dust. Diamond Dust could only be measured based on mass, not "cut". I will admit that i'm leaving out purity/impurity but either way the situation is the same.
How should diamonds value be discerned and more importantly, diamond dust. I need to know because i intent to look for naturally occuring diamond more than buying it straight. Finding a hunk of diamond isn't worth the value of that diamond were it proffessionally cut, but i could still turn it into valuable dust right?...
Im so confused.
ex: Making a teleportation circle permanent requires 22500gp worth of diamond dust. Wish requires a single diamond of 25000gp
There are no hard/fast rules for this. This is one of those things you should probably talk to your GM about and see if you can work out some reasonable compromise. If the GM says they want the cut to matter, then see what you can do to make a good cut. He/she may work out some way for you to make an appropriate check (like Profession(gem cutter), Profession(miner), or the like) to increase/maintain the value of a raw diamond when turned into dust.
'Finding' diamonds would be covered under Profession: miner. 'Crafting' a diamond would be covered under Craft: Jewelry. Now, technically I suppose you could possibly roll your profession skill to gather raw mats using mining (you make a certain amount of money) and use that to craft a diamond/dust. But go read how long this would take to do.
Now compare that to how much you could make just 'adventuring' and 'buying' what you need.
Realistically, the way material components are handled for spells, they are 'fluff' and in most cases as long as the funds are available the spell can be cast. The material component isn't meant to be a way to make it hard for a spell caster to do what they are capable of, it is meant to be a resource drain for significantly potent results.
So I've talked with my GM about the value of diamond and since it's logical and the rules aren't explicit he says that diamond value is based not simply on mass but also "cut". Meaning that a 50gram Diamond may be many times the value of another @ 50 grams, because of the cut.
Absolutely. Any jeweler in the real world will rave about the "four c's": cut, color, clarity, and carat weight. A brown diamond is worth less than a yellow one, and a yellow one is worth less than a colorless one. A notably flawed diamond is worth less than a perfect one. Et cetera.
So if you need diamond dust in the real world (it's useful as a grinding agent) it's made from the cheapest, mankiest, ugliest, most flawed diamonds out there. And if you take your 25,000gp diamond and grind it into dust, you're probably going to end up with 100gp worth or so,(or even less) because diamond dust is only valuable by weight (at least in the real world).
How should diamonds value be discerned and more importantly, diamond dust.
That's what the Appraise skill is for. In the real world, appraising diamonds is a difficult skill that is beyond my ability to teach over an internet forum. In Pathfinder, it's a DC 20 check.
I need to know because i intent to look for naturally occuring diamond more than buying it straight. Finding a hunk of diamond isn't worth the value of that diamond were it proffessionally cut, but i could still turn it into valuable dust right?...
If you had the capacity to crush diamonds to powder. That's not as easy as you might think, but not unreasonably difficult. And dust-quality diamonds are pretty easy to find. I can buy them by the hundredweight at less than $1 per carat.
Realistically, the way material components are handled for spells, they are 'fluff' and in most cases as long as the funds are available the spell can be cast. The material component isn't meant to be a way to make it hard for a spell caster to do what they are capable of, it is meant to be a resource drain for significantly potent results.
... or an adventure hook. The GM is encouraged to say "you don't have a 25,000 gp diamond, and none of the jewelers in town have one to sell you, but you heard about this Tower of Dread Cheese...."
But 25k of diamond dust is simply an industrial abrasive. You should be able to buy it at any mining town.
I'm a wizard. Making (or finding) a spell that functionally cuts a diamond or turns it to dust is not hard. As for cutting a diamond to specified value, i could by an expensive diamond as a reference point and just use transmutation to make a copy of its cut if i have a sufficiently large diamond that i harvested. Color and clarity would be my concern in this process because finding a diamond that matches another diamond on those qualifications might be hard but again knowledge checks regarding gemology/geology plus transmutation is a sufficient answer to removing impurities.
Process:
1.buy a diamond of the quality i need (thus named, the reference point).
2.harvest diamonds from the earth / plane of earth.
3. Research the properties that determine diamond value and the scientific relevance.
4. Research magical methods of restructuring a substance (such as diamonds)
5. make copies of the reference point by altering the structure (and possibly purity) of harvested diamonds.
Before questioning this, consider that spells already do this stuff to lesser items, like turning a steel beam into a steel sword (Fabricate, Wizard5). I may have to make checks but ultimately, I could theoretically duplicate the quality of the component i need as long as I'm not creating the material itself.
The answers so far tell me that a whole diamond is measured on 4 basis', while dust is measure on all but "cut". Legit? If so then my question is answered.
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Unless you and your DM desire to make this part of the game, it is not part of the game. Forget any "real-life" examples, this is a world where mages throw fireballs and dragons terrorize the countryside and if anyone uses that most ridiculous and stupid word that is thrown around these forums, I will reach through my screen and choke you (FYI the word is verisimilitude).
Anyway, 2,000gp of diamond will make 2,000gp of dust. It really is just that easy. If you want to make it harder, that is your call, but it should not be on the rules question forum as it goes from a rules question to a homebrew or advice question from there.
You should be able to just go to the diamond shop keeper and ask for 2,000gp worth of diamond dust and he will get it for you. Done, end of discussion there as far as the rules are concerned.
You can, and I have in both AD&D and now in Pathfinder, used or made rules for gemcutters to improve the value of certain uncut gems that they find. Again, that is homebrew as there are no rules beyond saying that there are skills that would cover crafting or doing something of that nature.
Good luck!
Unless you and your DM desire to make this part of the game, it is not part of the game. Forget any "real-life" examples, this is a world where mages throw fireballs and dragons terrorize the countryside and if anyone uses that most ridiculous and stupid word that is thrown around these forums, I will reach through my screen and choke you (FYI the word is verisimilitude).
Anyway, 2,000gp of diamond will make 2,000gp of dust. It really is just that easy. If you want to make it harder, that is your call, but it should not be on the rules question forum as it goes from a rules question to a homebrew or advice question from there.
You should be able to just go to the diamond shop keeper and ask for 2,000gp worth of diamond dust and he will get it for you. Done, end of discussion there as far as the rules are concerned.
You can, and I have in both AD&D and now in Pathfinder, used or made rules for gemcutters to improve the value of certain uncut gems that they find. Again, that is homebrew as there are no rules beyond saying that there are skills that would cover crafting or doing something of that nature.
Good luck!
Not what i want to hear, but fair 'nough.
Well by RAW if you take a 2000 GP diamond and use it to craft Diamond dust you get 6k worth of diamond dust. Now that may affect the verisimilitude of your game in reference to it's economy. But yoru finished product is basically worth 3x the raw product when using craft.
Examples:
To make 1500 GP Plate Armor costs 500 GP in materials from the crafting rules.
To make a 30 GP Sword costs 10 GP in materials from the crafting rules.
To make 6k worth of Diamond Dust takes 2k in materials from the crafting rules.
Here is me reaching through my screen and throttling Ughbash...:)
While I see what you are doing with the 1/3rd base price for crafting, I might argue that Plate Armor is a finished product that requires craftsmanship to construct so the whole is equal to more than the sum of the parts. Reverse engineering this into deconstructing a diamond does not have to follow these same rules. You can interpret it and make it RAI but it is a stretch to call it RAW in regards to diamonds and dust. Again, it comes down to a DM interpretation and nothing that is actually covered by a rule.
Realistically, the way material components are handled for spells, they are 'fluff' and in most cases as long as the funds are available the spell can be cast. The material component isn't meant to be a way to make it hard for a spell caster to do what they are capable of, it is meant to be a resource drain for significantly potent results.... or an adventure hook. The GM is encouraged to say "you don't have a 25,000 gp diamond, and none of the jewelers in town have one to sell you, but you heard about this Tower of Dread Cheese...."
But 25k of diamond dust is simply an industrial abrasive. You should be able to buy it at any mining town.
And if it is an adventure hook for a game where that diamond is outside the expected wealth of the party, that is cool, that is helping the party. The general rules of the game give gp limits for goods depending on the size of the community, the GM limiting access to something that is supposed to be available means he isn't running the same game the book is detailing and is limiting the party in a way the game isn't intending.
Well by RAW if you take a 2000 GP diamond and use it to craft Diamond dust you get 6k worth of diamond dust. Now that may affect the verisimilitude of your game in reference to it's economy. But yoru finished product is basically worth 3x the raw product when using craft.
Examples:
To make 1500 GP Plate Armor costs 500 GP in materials from the crafting rules.
To make a 30 GP Sword costs 10 GP in materials from the crafting rules.
To make 6k worth of Diamond Dust takes 2k in materials from the crafting rules.Here is me reaching through my screen and throttling Ughbash...:)
While I see what you are doing with the 1/3rd base price for crafting, I might argue that Plate Armor is a finished product that requires craftsmanship to construct so the whole is equal to more than the sum of the parts. Reverse engineering this into deconstructing a diamond does not have to follow these same rules. You can interpret it and make it RAI but it is a stretch to call it RAW in regards to diamonds and dust. Again, it comes down to a DM interpretation and nothing that is actually covered by a rule.
I like where this little conversation went but i would make a slightly different interpretation if just going by the 3:1 craft price ratio. Because clearly large sized diamonds are harder to get your hands on and dust could be made out of any diamond, the formulae should be switched if not 1:1. An example would be a 6000gp diamond making 2000gp diamond dust. It uses the original craft ratio but instead takes a realistic approach. Just my 2 cents
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I just assumed the whole thing was made of handwavium, and that as long as the appropriate amount of GP was spent I don't care if my players are pulling diamonds or diamond dust out of their ass.
I just assumed the whole thing was made of handwavium, and that as long as the appropriate amount of GP was spent I don't care if my players are pulling diamonds or diamond dust out of their ass.
Sure but having some idea of how this stuff works matters, at least in my case. Simply put, all the stuff i have said leads into a character who could theoretically get as much Diamond(gp 25000) and dust (gp ANY) as long as he put in the insane effort required to understand the factors that determine diamond value, had a source a cheap diamond, and enough of the right spell(s) available that day/week/month/year/Xamount of downtime. The rules don't prevent this, they hinder it and otherwise don't consider it.
I like where this little conversation went but i would make a slightly different interpretation if just going by the 3:1 craft price ratio. Because clearly large sized diamonds are harder to get your hands on and dust could be made out of any diamond, the formulae should be switched if not 1:1. An example would be a 6000gp diamond making 2000gp diamond dust. It uses the original craft ratio but instead takes a realistic approach. Just my 2 cents
Except that normally 500gp or raw material can make a 1500gp suit of plate mail because of the craftsmanship that goes into it. A diamond would seem to go the opposite direction. A 3000gp diamond only making a 1000gp of dust seems expensive. So should a 3000gp diamond make 9000gp in dust? I still don't think so, but I do not feel the need to get to that level of detail in my games.
Do you run a market system where the price of gold goes up and down versus silver or platinum? Is a gold piece worth a different amount in each kingdom?
Or can we not just walk into a store and say I want 1000gp in diamond dust and get it? It doesn't matter if my 1000gp diamond dust weighs 5 ounces and your 1000gp diamond dust weighs 8 ounces, they both are worth 1000gp and work as a material component.
Just my two coppers as well, but I do not know what the exchange rate is for these coppers so they may not be worth much...
I just assumed the whole thing was made of handwavium, and that as long as the appropriate amount of GP was spent I don't care if my players are pulling diamonds or diamond dust out of their ass.Sure but having some idea of how this stuff works matters, at least in my case. Simply put, all the stuff i have said leads into a character who could theoretically get as much Diamond(gp 25000) and dust (gp ANY) as long as he put in the insane effort required to understand the factors that determine diamond value, had a source a cheap diamond, and enough of the right spell(s) available that day/week/month/year/Xamount of downtime. The rules don't prevent this, they hinder it and otherwise don't consider it.
Does it really matter or are you trying to break the game by shoe horning this into rules in place for specific other reasons?
Crafting is in place to grant discounted prices to characters who invest quantifiable character resources. Feeding this formula something it isn't intended is going to not give expected results, not following the Wealth by Level will also require adjustments to the game. The rules of the game don't encompass crafting true trade goods and micro managing micro/macro economics. The game gives prices for purchasing trade goods and 'commonly' needed items. You need a diamond, you buy it. You have a diamond and need diamond dust, you sell the diamond and buy the diamond dust. Even the profession skills give silver/gold, not trade goods as reward.
RAW, at best, having a diamond means getting acces to 3x's the amount of diamond dust. Sell the diamond for its worth, invest that into crafting diamond dust and some point in the future after some downtime and crafting checks, collect your reward.
The characters having a mine, is a house rule. There is nothing in the CRB about ownership of land or buisness. Granting the PC such a reward means the GM house ruling accordingly as needed.
I just assumed the whole thing was made of handwavium, and that as long as the appropriate amount of GP was spent I don't care if my players are pulling diamonds or diamond dust out of their ass.Sure but having some idea of how this stuff works matters, at least in my case. Simply put, all the stuff i have said leads into a character who could theoretically get as much Diamond(gp 25000) and dust (gp ANY) as long as he put in the insane effort required to understand the factors that determine diamond value, had a source a cheap diamond, and enough of the right spell(s) available that day/week/month/year/Xamount of downtime. The rules don't prevent this, they hinder it and otherwise don't consider it.
Skylancer, this part you are quoting is not me continuing the original question but explaining to Claxon why I even asked. The answer to your question is technically that while what I intend to do if unmoderated (by my GM of course) could theoretically break the game, I'm searching for details in the rules and game that suggest how I might go about this in a way that doesn't just say, 'F the rules, I've got magic!'
If pathfinder were the rules for "real-life" then it would be lacking in details on how the "NPCs" are actually harvesting/ acquiring diamond, since you can't walk up to a mine and throw money at the entrance and expect the diamond to mine and cut itself, appearing before your very eyes.Yes, this is homebrew. I didn't quite realize that at first. I just figured at first that inferences made regarding the rules also fell under "the rules". Thanks for the replies guys :)