Melee Firearms in regards to feats and abilities.

[blackbloodtroll]

Do the Pistol Dagger, Sword Cane Pistol, Axe Musket, and Warhammer Musket, when used in melee, count as their melee weapon counterparts(Dagger, Sword Cane, Battleaxe, and Warhammer), in regards to feats and class abilities?

[blackbloodtroll]

Has this never been addressed?

[Skylancer4]

RAW, looks like no. It is treated as a double weapon for purposes of masterwork/enhancement, but has no clause regarding feats and its use for those parts seperately. The other side of that is feats like weapon focus would be in effect 'double dipping' giving a bonus to hit on both melee and ranged attacks.

[blackbloodtroll]

Under which Fighter weapon group would the melee portion of these weapons fall into?

[DonDuckie]

I would rule they fall into the group with melee part namesake. But RAW they don't fall into any. Based on ultimate combat, which has firearms and expanded weapon groups, but none are mentioned.

EDIT: except the group firearms: all one-handed, two-handed and siege firearms.

[Skylancer4]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Under which Fighter weapon group would the melee portion of these weapons fall into?

RAW, it would fall under the heading of the weapon (1H/2H firearm). The weapon is listed as firearm, not melee, though it can function as a melee weapon due to its write up.

[blackbloodtroll]

So, a Pistol Dagger could be wielded in two hands for x1.5 strength to damage, when attacking in melee?

[Kazaan]

They all have some clause to the effect of "can be used as a <melee weapon>" so I'd say they qualify as that weapon when being used in such a manner. For example, Weapon Focus (Dagger) would give +1 to attack with a Pistol Dagger only for melee attacks and it would benefit as part of any fighter weapon group that contains Daggers. However, it isn't a double weapon so you don't get "two ends" to fight with; you couldn't use TWF to make main-hand attacks with the pistol and dagger attacks as off-hand.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, it they do seem to function as one, or the other, but can't be used as both, at the same time.

[RedDogMT]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Has this never been addressed?

It doesn't need to be addressed. The description for each weapon states that they can be used as both weapons. There is nothing that needs to be addressed.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Under which Fighter weapon group would the melee portion of these weapons fall into?

Under the Fighter archetype section in Ultimate Combat, it shows where the weapons from Ultimate Combat are assigned. All of the firearm weapons are part of the 'firearms' weapon group; and since each of those 'combo' weapons can be used as a melee weapon, they fit into their respective melee group.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, a Pistol Dagger could be wielded in two hands for x1.5 strength to damage, when attacking in melee?

Now you are just trolling...and you know it. ;)

[blackbloodtroll]

No, I am not.

These are real questions, and these are confusing items.

They may seem "like, totally obvious, man" to some, but not to all.

These weapons are different than any other weapon in form and function.

Do not trivialize and mock those who do not have such a clear grasp on how they are supposed to treat these unique items with regards to the rules.

[Crash_00]

The weapons all have a clause in them that tells us how they work:

It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe
which allows it to be used as both a musket and a warhammer
the dagger pistol can be used as both weapons
this gun mixes a coat pistol with a sword cane

The weapons can be used as the gun version or the melee version. They count as whichever part you are using them as.

So if you are using a dagger pistol as a dagger, it is used as a dagger. It is a light weapon (as daggers are) and benefits from abilities and feats that trigger when you are using a dagger.

If you are using it as a pistol, then it is a one handed weapon (as pistols are) and benefits from abilities and feats that trigger when you are using a pistol.

You can't mix it (applying weapon focus (dagger) when using it as a pistol for instance) though.

The only one that could be iffy is the sword cane pistol since it does not have an actual clause that it is used as a sword cane (just says that the weapon mixes the two together), but it is ambiguous and the best interpretation is that one that causes it to work like the other weapons.

[Lord Pendragon]

RedDogMT wrote:

Under the Fighter archetype section in Ultimate Combat, it shows where the weapons from Ultimate Combat are assigned. All of the firearm weapons are part of the 'firearms' weapon group; and since each of those 'combo' weapons can be used as a melee weapon, they fit into their respective melee group.

While there is definitely a 'firearms' weapon group as you described, I could find no mention of the 'combo weapons' also being included in any melee weapon groups.

Indeed, none of the melee weapon groups, which are expanded in that section to include new weapons, include any of the 'combo weapons' in their lists.

[blackbloodtroll]

So, one could apply Weapon Finesse when attacking with a Dagger Pistol, or Sword Cane Pistol?

[Kazaan]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, one could apply Weapon Finesse when attacking with a Dagger Pistol, or Sword Cane Pistol?

Only when making melee attacks with the Dagger Pistol as a dagger (a sword cane is neither light nor is it an "exceptional 1-h weapon" like a rapier). If you have Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (Dagger), you could make a melee attack with the Dagger Pistol with Dex to attack instead of Str and +1 to attack, but you make ranged attacks with it as a firearm following normal ranged attack rules (still dex to attack, but not from weapon finesse and no +1 from Weapon Focus). Conversely, if you had Weapon Focus (Dagger Pistol), you'd get +1 to both melee and ranged attacks with the dagger pistol, but not to attacks with a plain pistol or a plain dagger.

[blackbloodtroll]

Actually, a Sword Cane is very much like a Rapier:

Ultimate Equipment wrote:

Sword cane

Cost 45 gp Weight 4 lbs.
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type P; Special —
Description
This slender light blade lies within a wooden container that serves as both its scabbard and hiding place. You can draw the blade as a swift action (or a free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). An observer must succeed at a DC 20 Perception check to realize an undrawn sword cane is a weapon rather than a walking stick; the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a sword cane sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. You can’t wield a sword cane in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage.

[Crash_00]

I don't think he was saying no to the sword cane, I think he was just using the dagger pistol as the example for how the rules work. It applies equally to the sword can pistol as well.

[blackbloodtroll]

I very much like the idea of an Agile Pistol Dagger or Sword Cane Pistol.

Also, it's good to know what adds to my attack roll when using these weapons in melee combat.

[Kazaan]

Ok, the Finesseable quality was added on in UE (it isn't in the APG entry that I was reading). So you can apply Finesse to melee attacks with the sword cane pistol and enchant the Melee Weapon portion with Agile (again, enchanted as a double weapon even though it isn't treated as a double weapon in actual use).