GM's That Like to Munchkin (Power-Game)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Sczarni

(The problem I'm having is below my definition of munchkin.)

Many people tend to run into power-gamers, min/max'ers, and in some rarer instances, a munchkin. These people can sometimes be troublesome and even an entropic field for fun, making the game far less enjoyable than it should be for those that aren't following the same or similar mechanics-heavy build.

My definitions of the three:

Power-Gamer: A player that optimizes their character for a very specific role without sacrificing too many of the rest of their statistics. While these gamers will help their fellow party members in their niche, they fall short in the fields outside of their focus. They can easily be overlooked and forgotten with some effort at ignoring their character's numerical stats. Generally, their stats can be argued to reflect their character's personality. Examples: The Two-handed Fighter, the Switch-Hitter Ranger, the Two-Weapon Rogue.

Min/Max Gamer: A player that willingly, and without any regard for roleplaying purpose, lowers the non-essential stats for their class to maximize their necessary stats to very high levels. They often off-balance the game by taking a mechanical concept to an extreme to maximize on the few strengths of their class. If their stats are revealed to the rest of the group, they tend to inspire annoyance and general dislike due to their over the top mechanical focus. They are also not easily forgotten due to their ability to sometimes solo an encounter. When confronted about how their stats reflect in roleplay, they simply build their character's personality around it on paper and forget to actually roleplay that personality. Examples: The uncouth, oblivious, idiot Fighter, The uncouth and oblivious Thug Rogue.

Munchkin: A player who takes the desire of a Power-Gamer and mixes it with a Min/Max gamer's mechanical superiority. They take a very, very specific mechanic of their class that can be amplified and abused by the numerous content supplements, and focus all of their effort on raising it even higher or supplementing it with another improbably amplified ability. They tend to ruin the experience of other gamers due to their ability to control the game; they can take on most encounters alone, and should the party do something the player doesn't want, that player can wipe out the party or player that conflicted with the Munchkin. Their roleplay is usually non-existent, and their claims to match their statistics with the character's personality are hollow. Examples: Alpha Strike Magus, Dumb and uncouth Raptor Wildshape Druid

If you think those are bad, try having a DM that falls into one of those categories. Which brings me to my issue.

Issue: I'm having a problem with my DM at the moment, but the issue is only just budding. We're playing PFS in a home game where players are extremely scarce, so if we die, we can bring in a new character of the same level (they aren't legal for other PFS games if they're "spawned into the game," but we don't really get to play them anywhere else anyway). The DM has fallen for the trap of his own "respawn" logic and is creating statistically legal NPC's to run as homemade Pregen's. Thing is, he has munchkin'ed them to oblivion (60-180 Damage/round at level 6-7 if he hits in melee with the +10 or more on his attacks; he has multiple characters of different classes that do this). He's making everyone else feel pointless when he can one-shot the main encounter of a scenario himself (and does sometimes). Talking with him about it is already in consideration, but leaving the group is out of the question. Any advice in dealing with the situation other than that?

Sovereign Court

Ask him to let the players run the DMNPCs. Better yet ask him not to use them at all. Offer to trade GM duties so he can get "building" out of his system and GM a game that suits his/her players better. You definitely should be talking about this together though.


1st rule of GMing (in my opinion), let the players shine at what they do, and don't steal their thunder, they are the heroes.

I would definitely approach him and bring the issue with his DM style, he might not even realize what he is doing and might think he is just "helping" the party. I've played with a DM who did something similar, eventually it was just the DM in combat against himself, DMNPC vs DM is not fun for the group. Once we let him know that it wasn't fun any more we had no more issues.


I had a GM for a 3.5 campaign who decided to bring in his barbarian/blah/blah monkey grip dual wield greatswords character as an npc. basically the game got off two sessions before I said something rather off color to ensure I wouldn't get requested to come back. We (three characters) literally spent a full game session following the GM's wonderbra with a blade, who carried everything, told us where to go and what to do, and juuuuuuust happened to know details about the dungeon we were the 'first' to explore.

I am commiserating with you on having this guy being in the lead position, but cannot recommend any feasible way out for you. It's really hard to get these people to let go of their power. If you're feeling a tad snarky, start claiming his 'character's' deeds as your own, and then tell him to deny it. If the whole group's in on it, deflating the grandeur of his character might take the wind out of his sails.


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Pathfinder Society Online Collective


This is one of the reasons I think a GMPC is almost always a bad idea. (This is from someone that previously used GMPC's to help the party.)

Any more, I would much rather let the players run 2 PC each rather than use a GMPC.

A few exceptions.

If there are a bunch of new players, players without a lot of system skill mastery, or just players that can't keep track of more than 1 PC at a time.

Sometimes it is part of the plot line that a NPC is with the group for an extended period of time and the GM will have to run it.

When that happens I always make sure that the GMPC does NOT overshadow the PC's. Things like:

1 - Warrior moderately high con and dex, heavy armor, and improved iron will. Now a halfway decent tank but not going to steal anyone's thunder.

2 - If the absolutely have to have some healing, I give them access to a moderate adept. Won't change the game and can't become a major powerhouse.

3 - They have to travel with an aristocrat. But he has been hit with a high CL level ability curse that gives him penalties to nearly everything he tries to do.

Liberty's Edge

Players are probably scarce because your GM doesn't seem to understand that it isn't player vs GM, and frankly may no be suited to be in the chair.

But you put him there...


I had a lot of combat type npc allies for the party in my game at various points. They were able to step in and help where needed, but they never suggested strategies for the party unless specifically asked for their opinion. It was also a pleasure to have the players control the character because, frankly, I had enough to do. It can be hard to strike a balance between a powerful ally who helps but who doesn't overshadow. One of the ways I tried using was to have the npc allies start out stronger individually than the party (one was initially an APL+3 encounter) but as the PCs gained levels they quickly overtook the npcs and became the deciding factors for how events transpired in the region. They were also only very occasionally present for combat etc., and were mostly the quest givers/major powers in the area.

One thing your GM could try if he's set on having his characters in the combats (after toning them down a fair bit) is to split the action in two parts, so that nominally the party are fighting with the npc ally but functionally they each have their own battles to take care of or something.


In '76, I decided no NPC in party would ever equal the lowest PC in level. No probs since.


Except in very rare cases any GMPC I introduce is always less powerful than the PCs. Usually they are only necessary for guidance or information, if you need a GMPC for combat worthiness or party viability, you have a different issue than having a GMPC.

The last exception to my rule was when I had a three person party and nobody was willing to play anyone with healing power. I did introduce a GMPC cleric. Since this was first level, I had to introduce him as first level.

I killed him off when the party leveled up and replaced him with a lower level healbot.

The one unbreakable rule I have with GMPCs is that the GMPC should never direct party activities or challenge the decision of a PC.


Ah yes the old player-DM problem. When I player-DM, my NPC is practically worthless. Making an NPC to roll over the monsters I'm playing is just sad. From a PC's prospective, it's the DM playing with himself.

When other DMs pull similar stunts, I jokingly remark how it's awkward for the party to watch the DM play with himself. We've had more tame player DMs since then.


I only add in a GMPC when everybody refuses to play a healer or frontliner, i.e., all the Special Snowflakes need some basic support to survive.


Calybos1 wrote:

I only add in a GMPC when everybody refuses to play a healer or frontliner, i.e., all the Special Snowflakes need some basic support to survive.

That can be ok as long as the support is not that great and doesn't steal the spotlight from the PC's.

I once saw someone who said he always used a summoner for the GMPC. The reason was that he didn't always know what was going to be needed and a well built summoner can do anything.
So there is a GMPC that can do anything and is one of the most complex and time concuming build that exist. Plus you know a few other PC's are along for the ride.

The Exchange

No point in doing anything other than talking with your GM - actually just showing him the last paragraph of your post here is a great way to present the problem - let the GM know you are bothered, and see where it goes from there.

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