
gustavo iglesias |

gustavo iglesias wrote:Yes ,but he can use that in the others 99% of encouters. So he won´t miss a lot of combats anymore...just one or two.
None of those would had worked against the Shoggoths.
With the rest of my extensive modifications to the rules, maybe. With the regular rules? Not really.
In a recap of what they have fought last few levels, I find:
shoggoths (oozes)
Banshees (incorporeals)
a lich which casted dustform (incorporeal)
a silver dragon who uses clouds and fog-vision (concealment)
a fight with blur (concealment)
a character with a ring of blink (incorporeal)
a Swarm (immune to sneaks)
a barbarian (with uncanny dodge)
Elder earth elementals (immune to sneak)
Elder negative elementals (immune to sneak)
carnivorous blob (ooze)
Dread Wraith (incorporeal)
a fight vs a Kraken (60' reach, can't be sneaked with ranged attacks that far)
Ghaeles (incorporeal)
A guy with an armor of fortification 75%
Water elementals
a sorcerer Xorn (can't be flanked)
Carnivorous crystals (oozes)
A *HUGE* amount of enemies with initative in 2 digits and/or tremorsense, blindsense, etc, which don't make easy for 2 of your steps (stealthing, and winning initiative)
And that's just a selection of creatures they have fought since they are 13th level to now they are 20th (the last 3 books of the AP). Granted, there have been several other combats where he was able to sneak. Like the Immolation Devil he killed in 1 round of knife-throwing. But a fast recap give me 16 combats in the last 7 levels, not counting the combats with enemies with high Initiative, high CMD, Reach, and improved senses (like a Linnorm), who also make really hard to sneak attack. That's a big share. Too big.

gustavo iglesias |

and, of course, you can flank almost all the time.
At levels 1 to 6, maybe. At higher levels, that's not true.
Creatures have reach, powerful CMB (to trip/grab you while you go into position), can fly (making flanking harder), etc. See a Linnorm, for example. Except with summon monster, it's not that easy to get a character in front of him, and another character in the back, getting through a barrage of AOO, combat reflexes, grab, etc.

andreww |
Magic Butterfly wrote:Agreed. Razh's build is a sexy build.I think the oracle was sexier. I mean, look at that charisma! Anyways, should I try to make a wizard with lots of skills for this, or is that playing with fire?
I couldn't be bothered with a Wizard but I gave it a go with the Sage Sorcerer. Assuming we take the Rogue role to mean a mixture of stealth, trap detecting, information gathering and general spying then I think he fulfils that role pretty well.
Stealth and scouting: OK his stealth skill isn't great at +12 but with Invisibility and day long Flight giving it a significant boost he can explore most places relatively undetected. Darkvision lasts hours per level so he can happily operate in the dark. He can also operate in other environments with Elemental Body allowing him to scout underwater, in aerial locations and also move through walls. Arcane Eye also allows him to scout without ever placing himself in danger.
Trap Detection: Perception of +21 and Detect Magic means he is spotting a lot of traps and given he is flying may well not actually be setting some off. +25 Disable Device is decent for clearing mundane traps. Magical ones can be Dispelled or Dimension Doored past.
Information Gathering: This is a definite strong point. His Knowledge skills are focused on understanding the political realities of the area he is working in rather than identifying monsters. Knowledge Local gives him a decent information gathering ability which, combined with a range of enchantments and Contact Other Plane for back up means ferreting out secrets isn't difficult.
Magical Spy: Disguise Self give him a starting skill of +21 to Disguise. Bluff is a little on the low end at +14 but I wouldn't expect him to be trying to use a mundane skill against the main antagonists. It is more than enough to sneak into the bad guys hideout concealed as a servant or something against his guards sense motive. A mixture of Silent Charm and Suggestion spells once he is in there will do the job. Memory Lapse may even make them forget what happened and Misdirection will help him avoid being detected. Tongues makes for a pretty crucial addition to the spy role. No point in overhearing a conversation if you have no idea what is being said.
Combat: Well I wont be doing any HP damage but I have the standard suite of buffs from Mage Armour for squishies, Haste, Greater Invis or Darkvision for everyone, Daylight against annoying Deeper Darkness users, persistent battlefield control with Glitterdust, Create Pit and Stinking Cloud and high DC enchantments against anyone who is susceptible to them.
Overall I would happily play this sort of character in any game which had a fair share of intrigue, politics and scheming over pretty much any Rogue. Not so great for extensive dungeon delving but can still contribute even then.
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+4 armor, +4 shield, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 72 (10d6+30)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +10
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Sorcerer (Wildblooded) Spells Known (CL 10):
5 (4/day) Overland Flight, Contact Other Plane, Teleport
4 (7/day) Elemental Body I, Invisibility, Greater, Charm Monster (DC 24), Dimension Door, Arcane Eye
3 (8/day) Tongues, Stinking Cloud (DC 21), Dispel Magic, Haste, Daylight, Suggestion (DC 23)
2 (8/day) Create Pit (DC 20), Darkvision, Resist Energy, Mirror Image, Glitterdust (DC 20), Invisibility, Misdirection
1 (8/day) Protection from Evil, Mage Armor, Memory Lapse (DC 21), Identify, Grease (DC 19), Charm Person (DC 21), Disguise Self, Air Bubble
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Message, Daze (DC 20), Light, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 18), Detect Poison
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 26, Wis 11, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 16
Feats: Eschew Materials, Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Disable Device) (Focused Study), Skill Focus (Perception) (Focused Study), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Penetration
Traits: Magical Lineage (Suggestion), Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
Skills: Appraise +12, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +1, Disable Device +25, Disguise +11, Escape Artist +18, Fly +6, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +18, Knowledge (history) +18, Knowledge (local) +18, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (nobility) +18, Knowledge (planes) +12, Knowledge (religion) +9, Perception +21, Spellcraft +16, Stealth +12, Survival +0 (+2 to avoid becoming lost), Use Magic Device +5
Languages Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Kelish, Osiriani, Osiriani, Ancient, Thassilonian, Varisian
Special Qualities arcane bolt (1d4+7) (11/day), metamagic adept (3/day), mutated bloodlines (sage)
Gear: +3 Mithral Buckler, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of mighty constitution +2, Circlet of persuasion, Cloak of resistance +3, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (1 @ 19 lbs), Headband of vast intelligence +4, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +1, Robe of arcane heritage, Vest of escape, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Thieves' tools, masterwork

Claxon |

Stealth allow you make the surprise round.
High Initiative will allow you to get Sneak Attack for that one round,that is what i said.
Hunter´s Initiative you are right...i´m post it to fast so i don´t check.
Yes, it is Improved, not great. but the bluff check is easy and that attack can be replaced by haste...
and, of course, you can flank almost all the time.
Stealth doesn't really create a surprise round, but it will allow you to make an enemy an "unaware combatant", but that is exactly the purpose of stealth since the change in rules regarding stealth. Still, it requires you to have concealment or something else that block line of sight. Then you must move up to the enemy. If you attack the same turn you will only get one attack, of course baring certain abilities you will no longer be hidden by stealth without something to maintain your concealment. And, in any event you will still only end up with 1 attack in most cases.
I've looked through the math for making the bluff check to feint, most of the time you have about a 50% chance of success for an equal CR creature (provided you're not super specializing in it). To me thats not a good chance of success. And sure that attack can be replaced by haste, but that represents one less attack you get to make compared to what someone who doesn't need any setup can do. You can't compare the rogue with haste to the fighter without. Consider that the fighter or barbarian will still do on average the same amount of damage as the rogue (because 10d6 at level 20 is still only 35 avaerage damage) and they require no setup to do it. They also have a much better chance to hit the enemy than the rogue does.
Maybe you play with a different kind of group, but I find that in many cases getting into position to flank is not a cake walk, at least not with intelligent creatures. They position themsleves such that you can't flank without being flanked. Not only that but getting other players to cooperate with you in such a way that you can get flanking isn't normally a high priority for them.

gustavo iglesias |

Trap Detection: Perception of +21 and Detect Magic means he is spotting a lot of traps and given he is flying may well not actually be setting some off. +25 Disable Device is decent for clearing mundane traps. Magical ones can be Dispelled or Dimension Doored past.
Why not seeker?
+30 to Disable Device is nearly autosuccess, and +26 to perception vs traps is close too.
MrSin |

Student of Philosophy is an intrigue wizards friend imo. That trait is almost brokenly good. If skills could be broken anyway. Would give the sage sorcerer up top a full +10 to his diplomacy and bluff.

gustavo iglesias |

Student of Philosophy is an intrigue wizards friend imo. That trait is almost brokenly good. If skills could be broken anyway. Would give the sage sorcerer up top a full +10 to his diplomacy and bluff.
Good trait...

andreww |
Why not seeker?
+30 to Disable Device is nearly autosuccess, and +26 to perception vs traps is close too.
Probably because I don't have the HeroLab pack which it appeared in. It is very nice but it would mean losing Metamagic adept and School Power. If I knew the game wasn't going to higher levels I might well be tempted.

gustavo iglesias |

gustavo iglesias wrote:Probably because I don't have the HeroLab pack which it appeared in. It is very nice but it would mean losing Metamagic adept and School Power. If I knew the game wasn't going to higher levels I might well be tempted.Why not seeker?
+30 to Disable Device is nearly autosuccess, and +26 to perception vs traps is close too.
I think the standard sage is better. But for a character with a given purpose, like a sorcerer replacing a rogue, it's very cool. With that, and the trait Mr Sin has suggested, it really covers every possible hole.

andreww |
Student of Philosophy is an intrigue wizards friend imo. That trait is almost brokenly good. If skills could be broken anyway. Would give the sage sorcerer up top a full +10 to his diplomacy and bluff.
That is very saucy and I would totally drop Vagabond for it. I might even take Seeker as well to get Disable Device back as a class skill along with an arbitrarily high bonus to it and perception.

Chengar Qordath |

andreww wrote:Trap Detection: Perception of +21 and Detect Magic means he is spotting a lot of traps and given he is flying may well not actually be setting some off. +25 Disable Device is decent for clearing mundane traps. Magical ones can be Dispelled or Dimension Doored past.Why not seeker?
+30 to Disable Device is nearly autosuccess, and +26 to perception vs traps is close too.
Unless traps are a common threat in your particular game, I really don't find the Seeker archetypes all that effective. The rest of the archetype trade-outs for Seeker can easily be complete dumps, and pretty much are for a Sage/Arcane bloodline caster since most of his bloodline spells are utility ones. Losing your level 3 and 15 bloodlines powers (plus Eschew Materials) is a very hefty price to pay for Trapfinding.

gustavo iglesias |

gustavo iglesias wrote:Unless traps are a common threat in your particular game, I really don't find the Seeker archetypes all that effective. The rest of the archetype trade-outs for Seeker can easily be complete dumps, and pretty much are for a Sage/Arcane bloodline caster since most of his bloodline spells are utility ones. Losing your level 3 and 15 bloodlines powers (plus Eschew Materials) is a very hefty price to pay for Trapfinding.andreww wrote:Trap Detection: Perception of +21 and Detect Magic means he is spotting a lot of traps and given he is flying may well not actually be setting some off. +25 Disable Device is decent for clearing mundane traps. Magical ones can be Dispelled or Dimension Doored past.Why not seeker?
+30 to Disable Device is nearly autosuccess, and +26 to perception vs traps is close too.
It is not worth it in 99% of the campaigns. But as this is a character built to replace a rogue, it's useful for him

Chengar Qordath |

Rogues play up their high dex to get checks no one else can match, while still doing decent, but not fighter levels of damage while SAing. Good AC being dex focused.
Nothing inherent to the rogue class gives them higher dexterity than any other class. When it comes to AC, I'd hesitate to say that any class does better than the fighter at rewarding dexterity-focus. Armor Training increasing the maximum dexterity on armor is a huge boon for a dex-based character. Thanks to the Agile enchantment, pretty much any class can be built for dex-based melee if they really want to.

gustavo iglesias |

Rogues play up their high dex to get checks no one else can match, while still doing decent, but not fighter levels of damage while SAing. Good AC being dex focused.
As Chengar has said:
Nothing in the game gives rogues a higher DEX, and actually, nothing in the game gives rogues an advantage for going with high DEX instead of, say, STR. Players ussually go with high DEX for legacy reasons, because they "feel" rogues should be dexterous. Just like they "feel" monks should have high Dex, or druids should have more WIS than STR. Rogues don't have better DEX than scimitar wielding magi, archer fighters, or dex-based characters. In fact, some classes (like alchemist and urban barbarians), DO have higher DEX than rogues, thanks to class features.A rogue gets few benefits from DEX for their skill-monkey role. Stealth, acrobatics and disable device, that's all. Any character with a focus in DEX (like an archer, or scimitar-wielding dervish of some kind) would get the same kind of bonuses.