The Final Fight, is it possible? (SPOILERS)

[Parable]

Hey everyone, was just skimming ahead through runelords anniversary edition, and was looking at the last fight... It looks different than the orignal edition by quite a bit and just wondering...is how it written correct? The encounter involves

Spoiler:

Karzoug The Claimer (cr21), Adult blue dragon (Cr13), Warden of Runes (Cr17), and 2 Wardens of Thunder (cr14).

Has anyone ran this encounter yet? Curious of how it went.

[Daethor]

Well...

Spoiler:

It's definitely supposed to be a hard encounter. I haven't run it, but it seems doable considering that you get several chances to weaken Karzoug and should have weapons that are super effective (and provide defenses) against him. The Wardens of Thunder and the dragon should be taken out fairly easily considering that PCs should be 17th level at that point (if I recall correctly), but it's definitely a tricky one. Also remember that even if some people die, at the end of the encounter, they'll be resurrected!

I'd like to hear other people's opinions on it as well. Even more, I want to hear actual experiences with it!

[mcbobbo]

I haven't run it yet either, and likely never will because I am using a different mechanical system. But it does seem a bit off the charts to me. Plus it strains disbelief a bit to see so many enemies gathered in that specific place.

[Misroi]

According to this guy, yes.

[Sc8rpi8n_mjd]

Well this encounter needed an update because the original was either a TPK or totally anticlimatic. Players can still kill Karzoug fast if they have good tactics, but at least now there are more enemies to target the PCs.

In terms of difficulty level, I consider this a low-hard encounter for experienced players, regardless of what the CR says (CR 22). Take into account the following:

Spoiler:

- The PCs will probably have allies, summoned/called or freed (the planetar/champion of greed).

- At this level, casters have access to high level magic. One wish o heal (mass) and all the damage done to the party is gone. That alone makes a huge difference.

- The two storm giants are dominated. If the players are smart, they will notice this. They have seen what rune giants do to lesser giants. They can kill the rune giant or dispel the domination. That adds two allies.

- If combat is run as written, the wardens of thunder are supposed to cast chain lightning (low DC for this level) and then shoot arrows (crap bonus to hit due to big difference between Str and Dex scores; no feats to support ranged attacks). That's not the most optimized tactic, and will likely result in the giants doing next to nothing in the combat. Of course, if run as they should be (Int 20, very intelligent), then they will have a bigger impact.

- The giants don't have spell resistance, and are susceptible to powerful mind-affecting effects like hold monster. I still don't know why the designers removed the rune giant's immunity to mind affecting effects, that makes perfect sense considering they dominate other giants.

- Once the party has cleared the pinnacle of avarice, they can buff themselves before entering the eye.

- The dragon is easy to hit at this level, and that's why he spends the second and third round buffing himself with mage armor/shield, that's two turns not attacking the party. Of course, if he gets into melee range with the low-bab casters things can get ugly fast.

Remember that (IMHO) at this level the CR system just doesn't work anymore. You know better than anyone what your party can handle. In my group, I have these PCs:

- A fighter that can deal a ton of damage with his nodachi (he rolls a ton of critical hits). He will probably take the "X Critical", feats, so I expect to see a lot of blinded/staggered enemies.

- An oracle of life that can keep the rest of the group up even on the direst situations.

- A witch with slumber and debuffing hexes, and lots of nasty SoS spells.

- A paladin. That can give smite evil to the group. That is all.