That was how I was raised. In the deep south.
Interesting! That implies it's state- or local- or even family-specific, as opposed to being regional.
See, for me growing up in Texas, it was Mr./Ms./Mrs. whatever. "sir" and "ma'am" weren't substitutes for names.
Is that what we've been arguing this entire time? I thought this was more in the veins of things like "Yes/No sir/ma'am" or "Can I [insert helpful action here], sir/ma'am?" type comments.
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That was how I was raised. In the deep south.Interesting! That implies it's state- or local- or even family-specific, as opposed to being regional.
Maybe, all I know is that this is the way it is in Lafayette Parish and the surrounding communities. I saw it in Kansas as well, but only in the black neighborhoods.
See, for me growing up in Texas, it was Mr./Ms./Mrs. whatever. "sir" and "ma'am" weren't substitutes for names.
Is that what we've been arguing this entire time? I thought this was more in the veins of things like "Yes/No sir/ma'am" or "Can I [insert helpful action here], sir/ma'am?" type comments.
Yeah, I've started wondering whether the argument was over a simple misscomunication.
We don't use Señor/Señora/Señorita (Sir/Madam/Miss) in replacement of the name; we use it to refer to someone when we don't know the name or when refering to them without using the name (as in when meeting a complete stranger whose name you don't know and saying "Hello, sir, how are you?" or "Miss, I think this is your wallet").
Is that what we've been arguing this entire time?
Who's "arguing"? I'm interested in cultural anthropology, and looking at different possibilities.
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One of the perks of getting older is being called Sir. It takes the sting out of no longer being carded.
One of the perks of getting older is being called Sir. It takes the sting out of no longer being carded.
Heh, having never bought anything requiring a card, I wouldn't know =)
See, for me growing up in Texas, it was Mr./Ms./Mrs. whatever. "sir" and "ma'am" weren't substitutes for names.
Is that what we've been arguing this entire time? I thought this was more in the veins of things like "Yes/No sir/ma'am" or "Can I [insert helpful action here], sir/ma'am?" type comments.
I also grew up in Texas (Dallas/Ft. Worth area), and as already stated, I was taught to use sir/ma'am for elders and anyone I didn't know. It should probably be noted that my dad is from Canada though, so that may have something to do with it (don't know for sure).
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Well it depends on the subject. Some are harder to drop than others, but waste just as much time.Personally I feel life is too short to fight on a message board over anything.See, I know what these words mean, but put together like that I can't make sense of it.
I was dropped once. My head still has the dent.
Did any Brits comment yet? Their use of "Ma'am" is a bit different, I think.
Anyway, from a German perspective, the abundant use of titles in everyday conversation seems a bit weird. We do have two different forms of address, though: "Du" is second person singular and used among friends, family and university students (odd thing, that). "Sie" is second person plural and the polite way of addressing someone whom you don't know or know only in a professional context.
There exist a few stupid social conventions about the whole thing, as well. For example, if people want to get rid of the distance the "Sie" creates, they have to determine somehow who's the older one, because he/she is to offer the "Du" first. It's impolite if the younger of the two initiates this. Of course, it is pretty old-fashioned doing it this way.
As for the titles, using "Mein Herr" (Sir) or "Meine Dame" (Ma'am) to address someone is incredibly outdated. Both are more like talking to nobility (my lord/lady). Using "Fräulein" (Miss) is considered rude by now, because most women will feel as if you talk down to them.
The farthest we go is using the equivalents of Mr and Mrs ("Herr" and "Frau").
That was how I was raised. In the deep south.Interesting! That implies it's state- or local- or even family-specific, as opposed to being regional.
In Connecticut, I might address a neighbor as "Mrs. Doe" or "Ms. Doe."
In Baltimore, it might be "Mizz Janie."
In Columbus, GA, it would be just "Janie."
In Texas, it would more likely be just "ma'am."
Didn't we talk about this on the FAWTL thread about a year ago?
As a child in New England, I was "encouraged" to address adults Mr/Ms <insert last name here>, but the cool grown-ups would deign to be called by their first name.
Mind you, all I can think of now is that time on Gilmore Girls when they were at the emergency room:
"Ms. Gilmore?"
"That's Mrs. Gilmore, young man; I am not a Cosmo woman!"
We do have two different forms of address, though: "Du" is second person singular and used among friends, family and university students (odd thing, that). "Sie" is second person plural and the polite way of addressing someone whom you don't know or know only in a professional context. There exist a few stupid social conventions about the whole thing, as well. For example, if people want to get rid of the distance the "Sie" creates, they have to determine somehow who's the older one, because he/she is to offer the "Du" first. It's impolite if the younger of the two initiates this. Of course, it is pretty old-fashioned doing it this way.
In French, there's a separate verb, tutoyer, that means, basically, "To insult someone by using the familiar, rather than formal, pronoun."
We do have two different forms of address, though: "Du" is second person singular and used among friends, family and university students (odd thing, that). "Sie" is second person plural and the polite way of addressing someone whom you don't know or know only in a professional context. There exist a few stupid social conventions about the whole thing, as well. For example, if people want to get rid of the distance the "Sie" creates, they have to determine somehow who's the older one, because he/she is to offer the "Du" first. It's impolite if the younger of the two initiates this. Of course, it is pretty old-fashioned doing it this way.In French, there's a separate verb, tutoyer, that means, basically, "To insult someone by using the familiar, rather than formal, pronoun."
Fine man, I'll just shut up. :(
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Fine man, I'll just shut up. :(
"Look, dude, I'm just totally like, trying to find the right title for you, OK, Chief?"
Seriously though, I don't follow the "fawtl" threads.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We do have two different forms of address, though: "Du" is second person singular and used among friends, family and university students (odd thing, that). "Sie" is second person plural and the polite way of addressing someone whom you don't know or know only in a professional context. There exist a few stupid social conventions about the whole thing, as well. For example, if people want to get rid of the distance the "Sie" creates, they have to determine somehow who's the older one, because he/she is to offer the "Du" first. It's impolite if the younger of the two initiates this. Of course, it is pretty old-fashioned doing it this way.In French, there's a separate verb, tutoyer, that means, basically, "To insult someone by using the familiar, rather than formal, pronoun."
Yeah, we call that "Tutear" in Castillian ("Tu" being the informal singular second-person, ie informal You), which sort of means "You-ing" (informally).
Probably the customs come from the same origin, since the process here is the same (though still in common current use rather than outdated): Young people often treat elder ones as "Usted" (formal of You), while elders treat young people of "Tu".
It's similar on most formal instances: A teacher can use "Tu" when talking to students in a friendly manner, while the student is supposed to treat the teached with an "Usted". Though in formal circumstances both the teacher and the student are supposed to refer to each other as "Usted".
Interestingly enough, switching places is considered condescending: If someone you would normally expect to call you "Usted" instead uses "Tu" (say, a student speaking to a teacher during class), but you answer using "Usted" rather than "You", it is implied that you are not allowing the person to treat you with familiarity. In some cases this can be seen as being hostile/pretentious and is ill-advised, but in others it can be an acceptable way of expressing annoyance at a mistreatment or insult.
I suppose it works like the "Good day to you, sir!" way of showing bother.
Actually, my real question was, in languages with formal and informal terms of address, is there a verb that means "To insult someone by using the formal, rather than the familiar, pronoun?"
'Cause in English we don't even have a singular second person (unless you're Quaker), but we do have the word "supercilious."
I don't post regularly on the "fawtl" thread either, I just stumbled in there one time when they were talking about regional politeness or something.
EDIT: I think Klaus ninja'd me and answered my question in one fell swoop.
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EDIT: I think Klaus ninja'd me and answered my question in one fell swoop.
Yes!
That increases my Coolness Factor by 1.
But it was about grammar and liguistics, so I suppose it cancels out to 0.
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I was raised in Michigan, and we did use Mr./Ms./Mrs. [ lastname ] all the time, but didn't use "sir" and "ma'am" much. I've been in Texas for 5 years, however, and I use it a lot now. It's much more common here, and I'm sure I unconciously do it to fit in. I've been informed I'm developing a slightly Texas accent as well, so...
I generally use it in situations where I don't know someone and probably won't meet them again - a polite form of address to someone whose name I don't know and won't learn. someone holding a door for me, a helpful worker in the store I'm at, etc.
Actually, my real question was, in languages with formal and informal terms of address, is there a verb that means "To insult someone by using the formal, rather than the familiar, pronoun?"
'Cause in English we don't even have a singular second person (unless you're Quaker), but we do have the word "supercilious."
I don't post regularly on the "fawtl" thread either, I just stumbled in there one time when they were talking about regional politeness or something.
EDIT: I think Klaus ninja'd me and answered my question in one fell swoop.
Maybe it only exists in romanic languages? I don't know of a German verb with the same meaning.
And since you mentioned: I always found it weird that English got rid of the second person singular pronoun. It must have something to do with how polite Anglo-Saxons are compared to continental Europeans.
Yeah, we call that "Tutear" in Castillian ("Tu" being the informal singular second-person, ie informal You), which sort of means "You-ing" (informally)...We do have two different forms of address, though: "Du" is second person singular and used among friends, family and university students (odd thing, that). "Sie" is second person plural and the polite way of addressing someone whom you don't know or know only in a professional context. There exist a few stupid social conventions about the whole thing, as well. For example, if people want to get rid of the distance the "Sie" creates, they have to determine somehow who's the older one, because he/she is to offer the "Du" first. It's impolite if the younger of the two initiates this. Of course, it is pretty old-fashioned doing it this way.In French, there's a separate verb, tutoyer, that means, basically, "To insult someone by using the familiar, rather than formal, pronoun."
And then there’s vouvoiement, which I would probably be guilty of more often if I had more extensive contact with the majority of francophones I meet. I love the expedient of The Anglo Guide to Survival in Québec, which advises that non-native speakers should pick one pronoun and stick with it, based on their personality. Jeans and t-shirt, and prefer beer? Just go with tu. On the other hand, a person who prefers silk skirts and enjoys tea at four o’clock should opt for vous.*
On topic, in the parts of Canada I’ve travelled in, I don’t think I’ve ever heard “Ma’am.” Of course, I’m a young-ish brat; honestly, what springs to my mind is Star Trek, and Janeway saying, “‘Ma’am’ will do in a pinch, but I prefer ‘Captain.’” “Sir” is ubiquitous, though, because “Mister” can sound forced.
Which leads me to my preferences, and issues with “Ma’am.” I prefer a universal “Miss” or “Ms.,” though especially the former, because I dislike the nasal Miz. (Although, thinking a bit more about that, I wonder if it’s a product of my upbringing, because in grade school all the recess monitors were “Misses” rather than “Mizzes.”) Of course, these are just regular titles, as opposed to how often you meet someone who is correctly styled “Sir.” And there’s the sticking point; why is it that the feminine title implies more assumptions about age or marital status? Not in all cases, of course, but most generally…
Which makes me think of my parents’ expedient, to allow for an age distinction without gender bias: kids (most often humorously, and only on formal occasions, but still) are addressed as “Master” and “Mistress,” adult men and women as “Mr./Sir” and “Miss/Ms.”
Again, these are just personal observations for the sake of cultural anthropology, as Mr. Gersen put it, and I don’t mean to insinuate that my way is the only or best way of doing things.
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If you're quibbling over two sounds as similar as an s or a z I think you're obligated to dismiss the difference as your own personal predilections and take the word in the spirit it was given: someone trying to be polite.
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It's amazing how many people mistake rudeness for egalitarianismStrangely, most people seem to think I'm pretty polite despite my not using "sir" or "ma'am."
I don't think I need a "sir" after "pardon me" or "please" or "thank you" to make it polite.
And you avoid misidentifying the person's sex. Also, for all you know the person you are talking to might be a transsexual. It's taking us a while as a race to catch up to the fact that human sex isn't binary.
If you're quibbling over two sounds as similar as an s or a z I think you're obligated to dismiss the difference as your own personal predilections and take the word in the spirit it was given: someone trying to be polite.
No, you're attempting to remedy the fact that until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's. You're not being polite to me by calling me Miss or Mrs. instead of Ms.; you're committing a fairly significant professional faux pas.
If you're quibbling over two sounds as similar as an s or a z I think you're obligated to dismiss the difference as your own personal predilections and take the word in the spirit it was given: someone trying to be polite.
That's assuming that you're either emotionally secure enough to not constantly have to get bent out of shape over stuff that really doesn't matter, or you're not looking to connive a verbal power play situation over somebody.
Jeez, get a grip.
Obligated?.....
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No, you're attempting to remedy the fact that until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's. You're not being polite to me by calling me Miss or Mrs. instead of Ms.; you're committing a fairly significant professional faux pas.
The rules are regional and generational. People are only doing what they were taught was polite, not making any deeper statements.
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Wait srsly has anybody made a
It is Jessica
Or Ms. Price if you're nasty
reference yet
Oh god I am so old I remember when Janet Jackson was relevant
The rules are regional and generational. People are only doing what they were taught was polite, not making any deeper statements.
No, you're attempting to remedy the fact that until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's. You're not being polite to me by calling me Miss or Mrs. instead of Ms.; you're committing a fairly significant professional faux pas.
should I call her Miss, Mrs. or Mizz? Because, y'know,.....I don't want to come on Paizo.com and be all politically incorrect or sexist or nothing.
And,.....do they have plastic surgery on Golarion, or are those permanent levitation spells?
No, you're attempting to remedy the fact that until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's. You're not being polite to me by calling me Miss or Mrs. instead of Ms.; you're committing a fairly significant professional faux pas.If you're quibbling over two sounds as similar as an s or a z I think you're obligated to dismiss the difference as your own personal predilections and take the word in the spirit it was given: someone trying to be polite.
I had hoped that I was clear that I was speaking only to my personal predilections in quibbling over s and z sounds, but I should probably be more explicit. I prefer, non-rationally and not too strongly, the s over the z, but it's not a huge thing for me either way, since people are just trying to be polite. That still makes me an outlier, since, as Ms. Price points out, "Miss" shares baggage with "Mrs." Again, personally, I have no objection to, and even favour, "Miss" because of the "polite" use that ignores possible status cues, and because where I grew up it was normal. I certainly don't mean to make a normative judgement about it, as if I thought everyone should conform to the idiosyncrasies of my neck of the woods.
That said, if I might climb on to a soapbox for a minute, I wouldn't mind quashing the use of "Mrs.," which should, if s and z are really that close, render that question moot. I'm tempted to spend a day pointedly referring to the men I know as Ms. X's husband or Ms. Y's son, but I'll probably resist. :)
until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's.
When did wedding rings come into vogue? Because they usually make it pretty easy to tell the marital status of any person of either gender, even without having to wait for someone to use an honorific.
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So now it's offensive to be polite? Why does everything have to have some ulterior motive?
OMG he called me Missus, how very rude of him to use polite terminology instead of just being a rude turd like the rest of society!
Seconded. I was raised to call people "sir" and "ma'am." This has actually landed me in hot water a few times at various jobs where customers actually complained that I was "patronizing" and "too polite." I've even had people think that I was trying to hide something, or even mocking them. I really don't f#%!ing get this.
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Between so much time in the south, and being raised in the military family, Sir and Ma'am come naturally to me. If I offend, let me know and I'll make an effort to address you as desired. If you don't say something, I'll continue as normal, not realizing I've offended someone.
Edit: Moorluck and Shiny, when are y'all coming out for another PaizoCon?! :D
It'll be another 3-4 years. We're moving to TX the first of the month and it's going to eat up a lot of money.
Shouldn't run into too much trouble there calling folks Mr./Mrs., Sir/Ma'am. :P
We're moving to TX the first of the month and it's going to eat up a lot of money.
Damn! If only you'd done it sooner, or if I'd moved later...
Good luck in the Lone Star State -- hope it's a really good move for you.
Seconded. I was raised to call people "sir" and "ma'am." This has actually landed me in hot water a few times at various jobs where customers actually complained that I was "patronizing" and "too polite." I've even had people think that I was trying to hide something, or even mocking them. I really don't f*@+ing get this.So now it's offensive to be polite? Why does everything have to have some ulterior motive?
OMG he called me Missus, how very rude of him to use polite terminology instead of just being a rude turd like the rest of society!
You're behind a counter. That makes you a target of convenience for a+##+@%s.
I estimate that roughly 60-70% of the general population is an a+~!*!# looking for a target of convenience.If it makes you feel any better,.....it never ends, but you get used to it and it doesn't bother you as much later.
And, also,......the main thing to remember is people like that probably have this whole family of relatives who they've alienated with their trifling b.s. and will die lonely and alone. or, they have this whole family of gnarly backbiting Jersey Shoresque creatures constantly feeding frenzying eachother.
And they'll die lonely and alone.
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This is the first time I've ever heard of ma'am implying marriage. It's just the feminine of sir, as far as I've ever heard.What's "miss" the equivalent of, then?
I know this was waaaay back on the first page, but I thought I'd chime in because I also live in a place where ma'am does not imply marriage.
I live right on the Tn/Al line, and around here, miss/ma'am has nothing to do with marital status and everything to do with age.
"Miss" is attached to a name, and either refers to a child/teenager or a substantially older woman. You stop getting called "Miss" when you're officially a grown up and don't pick it back up again unless being addressed by a much younger person, as a sign of respect, and only in conjunction with your first name. While I would certainly write out "Ms." in correspondence with said older woman, there is no audible difference between "Ms" and "Miss" in my area.
For instance, my MiL is "Miss Sherry," my mother's friends are "Miss Heather" or "Miss Sandy," and my elderly friends are "Miss Frances" and "Miss Lily." It doesn't denote a lack of familiarity...I've known most of these women for at least a decade.
On the flip side, even my 19 month old niece is sometimes "Miss Jessa" (for example: "Hey, Miss Jessa! Come give me hugs!") But I'd NEVER call a woman around my own age "Miss" because that would be insulting. It would imply either that she was old, or that I considered her a child.
"Sir" and "Ma'am" are entirely different. They're absolutely required for pretty much everybody, and denote respect. You use them with "Yes/No" for anyone and everyone, or when addressing a person whose name you do not know ("Excuse me, sir?" or "How may I help you, Ma'am?")
To further complicate things, "Sir" and "Ma'am" are such a part of our cultural vocabulary that we use them in other contexts, too. I've worked with preschoolers since I was a teen, and when scolding a child, I and the people I learned from will often say something like "No Sir! We do NOT do that!" or "No Ma'am...you know better!"
And then there's "Sugar," and "Hun," and even sometimes "Sweetie," and "Darhlin." All four can be either polite, or a horrific insult, depending on the way you draw the word out and the kind of smile you wear when you say it...
The rule of thumb I try to live by is "don't assume someone from a different region speaks the same language as you, even if you're both speaking English." It's saved me from feeling needlessly insulted on many occasion, and I would hope that others would extend that same courtesy of the benefit of the doubt to me,should I accidently insult them by not understanding the unspoken rules of their culture.
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Between so much time in the south, and being raised in the military family, Sir and Ma'am come naturally to me. If I offend, let me know and I'll make an effort to address you as desired. If you don't say something, I'll continue as normal, not realizing I've offended someone.
Edit: Moorluck and Shiny, when are y'all coming out for another PaizoCon?! :D
It'll be another 3-4 years. We're moving to TX the first of the month and it's going to eat up a lot of money.
Shouldn't run into too much trouble there calling folks Mr./Mrs., Sir/Ma'am. :P
FAWTLYCon, however, is another matter......
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The rules are regional and generational. People are only doing what they were taught was polite, not making any deeper statements.
No, you're attempting to remedy the fact that until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's. You're not being polite to me by calling me Miss or Mrs. instead of Ms.; you're committing a fairly significant professional faux pas.
If you're insisting on calling women "Mrs." or "Miss" when you've been told there's a professional title that is actually the equivalent of "Mr.", you are making a deeper statement.
And frankly, when you haven't had to deal with something in your life, you don't get to tell anyone who has whether or not they get to be offended about it. You're not qualified to dismiss or validate their feelings about it.
I found this thread very interesting...
Generaly in a professional setting when dealing with customers or my boss I use sir/Ms. respectively. Unless I know the person well enough...or they request I don't use that.
The odd thing is I personaly don't like getting called Sir. .I think I use it because it is just what I learned and don't know a better way to call strangers...
I like to use "hey you".
that is what I use in informal settings...
At work (early morning/late night paper route) I usually go with, "Oi! Unless you have a really bad memory, you should stop checking the door handles of the cars here!"
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Within my company we address people by first names, sometimes nicknames my managers manager likes us to call her K.K.
Like I said in retail they tried to get us be more formal, it sounded fake, and cloying and grasping.
On the other hand, I like to hear people from other places like the South of the US say Ma'am and Sir because comming from them it's not fake, it's part of a rich cultural history. It is who they are and how they speak.
The world will become sad gray and boring when we are all following the same rules, when we are all so worried that our goodwill will offend.
It's cultural imperialism - we will impose the rules on how people should speak to each-other because we are right good and superior.
It's not difficult for people to say please don't call me sir/Ma'am call me by my name.