I think the main difference between them is that Redneck has had sort of a reclamation effort from the people it once targeted and is now a term they wear willingly - see Jeff Foxworthy et.al.
Not so much with the other.
True to a point. You could say the same about almost all racial slurs, when used by the groups once targeted by them.
As with all such terms, it is completely different when used by members of the group compared to being used as a term targeting the group by outsiders.
Right. I live in southern TN right along the GA border and there's a great deal of the "Redneck and proud of it" culture here. Quite different from coming from someone outside said culture.
Bullshiznit. I understand quite well what the term implied and how it was used....yes, the slaveowners needed a handy term to refer to the poor that weren't their chattel...You clearly don't understand what the term implied and how it was used, and I don't feel like trying to educate you.
Your comments don't indicate to me that you do.
From WIKI:
The term white trash first came into common use in the 1830s as a pejorative used by house slaves against poor whites
It was very much a racial slur used by blacks against whites. Your comment about it's origins was dead wrong and demonstrated, to me, a complete lack of understanding of the fundamentally racist use of the term.
Oh yeah? Which ones?
I feel like a bit of context matters. Somebody spits at me and calls me a "dirty k!ke" and I'm likely to go all Kinky Friedman on them (MUSICAL INTERLUDE!). On the flip side, when my Reformed jewish friend proudly tells me, "That place tried to rip me off, but I Jewed them down to something reasonable!" I'm not offended, because he's a mensch. Looking at my other heritage, my mother calls me a "little Kraut-Mick bastard" as a term of endearment. Again, I don't go ape or anything.
So, when I come into an on-topic thread and see people like Kryzbyn, Hama, and Comrade Goblin de Galt posting, I sort of come in with the expectation that it's going to be fairly cool because we're all friends here. Then other people pop in and are HORRIBLY OFFENDED and want to "educate" everyone in it -- meh. If it bugs you, flag it and move on.
Kirth, I'm not "horribly offended" at all.
I'm just pointing out the double standards and how they are enabled by people.
I'm willing to throw Paizo at least a bone on this, as they pretty heavily rely on the flagging system to sort out problematic posts - if not many people are flagging, an erroneous or offensive post can easily go unnoticed, and they have other jobs to do that take priority over forum moderation. (See the Website Feedback forum for details on this - Liz, Chris, Gary and others have mentioned such repeatedly.) If anyone's enabling, it's the people who haven't felt bothered enough to flag down the problematic post.
The only "double" standard I'm seeing is:
With an in-group or among friends, the type of stuff that outsiders use as slurs isn't really that offensive when you co-opt it. It remains offensive, however, when used that way by outsiders.
"The term white trash first came into common use in the 1830s as a pejorative used by house slaves against poor whites. In 1833 Fanny Kemble, an English actress visiting Georgia, noted in her journal: "The slaves themselves entertain the very highest contempt for white servants, whom they designate as 'poor white trash'".[8][9]
In 1854, Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote the chapter "Poor White Trash" in her book A Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin. Stowe tells the reader that slavery not only produces "degraded, miserable slaves", but also poor whites who are even more degraded and miserable. The plantation system forced those whites to struggle for subsistence. Beyond economic factors, Stowe traces this class to the shortage of schools and churches in their community, and says that both blacks and whites in the area look down on these "poor white trash".[10]
By 1855 the term had passed into common usage by upper class whites, and was common usage among all Southerners, regardless of race, throughout the rest of the 19th century."
Well, I was wrong about the derivation. It wasn't until two decades after some house slave coined the phrase that it became common usage among slaveowners. Glad you set me straight.
Well, I was wrong about the derivation. It wasn't until two decades after some house slave coined the phrase that it became common usage among slaveowners. Glad you set me straight.
It's more than historical accuracy Comrade. I still don't think you clearly understand why the term is as offensive as it is to people who actually had it used against them in a racist context as a preamble to being physically assaulted.
Like, for instance, me.
The only "double" standard I'm seeing is:
With an in-group or among friends, the type of stuff that outsiders use as slurs isn't really that offensive when you co-opt it. It remains offensive, however, when used that way by outsiders.
Then you aren't looking very hard Kirth.
The only "double" standard I'm seeing is:
With an in-group or among friends, the type of stuff that outsiders use as slurs isn't really that offensive when you co-opt it. It remains offensive, however, when used that way by outsiders.
To put it plainly:
If this topic had been on the subject of any other slur, or a slur against any other social group of almost any sort, it would have been flagged by many more people in a far swifter amount of time, bringing more than enough attention to the thread to draw in a moderator to deal with the problem.
But because it is what it is and not something else, too few people felt it worth noting as offensive, thus leading to fewer flags and less attention from the staff. Which gives the double standard of "this group is okay to insult and slur, because nobody cares about them enough to get offended about it and see something done about the insult being tossed around like it is".
Orthos, you can add to that double standard the "oh, quit whining about it" attitude expressed by many in the thread.
Then you aren't looking very hard Kirth.
Exactly so! I came into the thread, formerly populated by the above-mentioned people, and I saw no need to go looking for things to be offended about, or for nefarious agendas, or for possible double standards, or whatever. That might make me a Bad Person, but so be it.
I should, in fairness, mention that I myself am caucasian, I work in the sun a lot so my neck usually is actually red, and although I'm from Troy, NY (about which Wikipedia succinctly says "Troy, like many older industrial cities, has been battered by industrial decline and the migration of jobs to the suburbs"), I've lived half my life in the south -- VA (where I actually lived out in a marsh), GA, SC, TX. So if I roll up a "redneck ranger," I'm not really looking at myself as a racist who hates myself. YMMV.
Well, I was wrong about the derivation. It wasn't until two decades after some house slave coined the phrase that it became common usage among slaveowners. Glad you set me straight.It's more than historical accuracy Comrade. I still don't think you clearly understand why the term is as offensive as it is to people who actually had it used against them in a racist context as a preamble to being physically assaulted.
Like, for instance, me.
Well, I disagree. I am well aware of the offensiveness of the term and I'm not telling you to stop whining about it. If you've read any of my posts as in some way condoning the use of the term, well, you read them wrong.
I studied racism in college. Here's one of the most important things I learned.
Slurs are harmful, no matter who uses them. Simply hearing a slur used (whether by a member of the majority or a member of the targeted group):
1) causes negative consequences (feelings and behavior) for people in the targeted group who hear the slur, and
2) makes it more likely for members of the majority who hear that language, even if they disagree with it, to have more negative feelings about the targeted group, and to act negatively toward the targeted group.
So before you tell yourself or others that using offensive language is all in good fun, or okay among friends, or whatever - realize that it has a cost, to you and to those who hear it.
Comrade, in general when dealing with posts from me, you don't have to wonder what I mean. I am usually, almost unfailingly, very specific and say exactly what I mean.
I did not say you don't find the term offensive. I said that you don't seem to understand how and why it was used and why it IS so offensive. So far every one of your responses where you claim that you do understand have been accompanied by other comments that clearly indicate that even while asserting that you do, you actually do not.
But enough with this. I only popped in to point out the double standard. I think it's been noted and now I'll just wait to see if the mods continue to let the slur stand not only unchallenged, but right there in the title of the thread.
And, again, I say bullshiznit.
My father's family were hillfolk from outside Pittsburgh who went to work in the steel factories. My mother's were Italian immigrants who settled in western Massachusetts. You don't need to have been raised in a trailer park in Louisiana and beat up by, I'm assuming, black people to understand the offensiveness of "poor white trash."
Anyway, if you are so unfailingly specific, you should have no problem pointing to a post where I fail to understand the offensiveness of the term other than not previously knowing that between 1830 and 1850 it was allegedly used by house slaves and not wealthy whites.
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Damn Honkies....gonna screw up a good ol' boy's thread.
(BTW, I am white, I do find slurs to be offensive regardless of who they target and I am only being ridiculous in my usage of them currently. I am, however, flagging this thread because racial slurs are racial slurs, and I think we need to start using equity in how we treat them regardless of which ethnicity is targeted.)
Comrade, my final comment on this thread:
The origination of a term is important. Mischaracterizing it's origins was not merely an historical error, it implied that the term was originated by whites to be used against whites, which you were implying to support a previous assertion that it was more of a class slur than a racial slur. So not only were you wrong, but your "error" was being used to promote a further incorrect assertion that you had made.
Such things matter Comrade. The fact that black people incorporated racist slurs originated by white people into their own vernacular does not in any way change the nature, origin or meaning of the term when used by white people. A point that I believe is very clearly understood when contemplating most racist slurs, and which applies to this one as well.
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I'm not sure locking a thread based on pejorative terms is a precedent I'd be comfortable with. Racism is a touchy subject and of course nobody wants a thread to degenerate to mere name-calling, but I don't really know that the original poster's declaration of intent to create a barefoot, overall-wearing, moonshine-swilling dullard is deserving of censorship. Nor is the original topic really worth all the anger that's shaping up on the thread now. Above all, please don't compare family histories in a quest for moral ascendancy... I've never seen that end prettily.
On the other end, imagine how quickly a thread titled "Help me build a N-----" would end up being locked. Especially if there was a declaration of intent of creating a half-monkey warrior who specializes in throwing spears, and gets extra gp from a government organization for each out-of-wedlock child he ignores.
[wonders if just this post will be deleted, or if they'll actually do something about the entire thread]
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I'm not sure locking a thread based on pejorative terms is a precedent I'd be comfortable with. Racism is a touchy subject and of course nobody wants a thread to degenerate to mere name-calling, but I don't really know that the original poster's declaration of intent to create a barefoot, overall-wearing, moonshine-swilling dullard is deserving of censorship. Nor is the original topic really worth all the anger that's shaping up on the thread now. Above all, please don't compare family histories in a quest for moral ascendancy... I've never seen that end prettily.On the other end, imagine how quickly a thread titled "Help me build a N-----" would end up being locked. Especially if there was a declaration of intent of creating a half-monkey warrior who specializes in throwing spears, and gets extra gp from a government organization for each out-of-wedlock child he ignores.
[wonders if just this post will be deleted, or if they'll actually do something about the entire thread]
I don't get it, none of that has -anything- to do with Nebraska.
Well, allegedly that was your final comment, but:
The origination of a term is important. Mischaracterizing it's origins was not merely an historical error, it implied that the term was originated by whites to be used against whites, which you were implying to support a previous assertion that it was more of a class slur than a racial slur. So not only were you wrong, but your "error" was being used to promote a further incorrect assertion that you had made.
Actually, the only assertion that I made before mischaracterizing (or, as I prefer, getting it wrong) its origins was that all pinkskins, regardless of color, suck. I stand by that assertion. I also said Dicey the House Goblin would be along shortly. That was, it turns out, also incorrect.
And, to be honest, a phrase invented by house slaves, i.e., the "priviliged" segment of black slaves, against poor whites? Still sounds like a classist slur to me. Nevermind that the wikipedia article that you quoted (selectively, I might add) goes on to say "By 1855 the term had passed into common usage by upper class whites, and was common usage among all Southerners, regardless of race, throughout the rest of the 19th century." And what's up with putting "error" in quotes?
Such things matter Comrade. The fact that black people incorporated racist slurs originated by white people into their own language does not in any way change the nature, origin or meaning of the term when used by white people. A point that I believe is very clearly understood when contemplating most racist slurs, and which applies to this one as well.
Don't really have much to say about this paragraph.
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I wan't aware of the origins of the term before now. And I find them a bit ridiculous. It's essentially someone saying something bad about someone else because they aren't rich enough to own them as property.
In which case, to me, all of you are white trash. [Unless Bill Gates happens to be reading this.] Some of you are just white trash with a different cover.
I wan't aware of the origins of the term before now. And I find them a bit ridiculous. It's essentially someone saying something bad about someone else because they aren't rich enough to own them as property.
Close. If we take the wikipedia article as gospel (and I have no reason not to), it's house slaves identifying with their masters and looking down on white people not rich enough to own field "hands". Except that's not the word they would have used.
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I'm not sure locking a thread based on pejorative terms is a precedent I'd be comfortable with. Racism is a touchy subject and of course nobody wants a thread to degenerate to mere name-calling, but I don't really know that the original poster's declaration of intent to create a barefoot, overall-wearing, moonshine-swilling dullard is deserving of censorship. Nor is the original topic really worth all the anger that's shaping up on the thread now. Above all, please don't compare family histories in a quest for moral ascendancy... I've never seen that end prettily.
C'mon, folks. Let's yell at each other over attacks of opportunity instead, as Mods intended. ;)
They don't have to lock the thread. They can and do change thread titles if the only problem with the thread is its incendiary title.
Of course, now they would have to change the title AND clean up a page full of posts engaging in an off-topic debate on racial slurs (which would no longer make any sense if you change the thread title to something less incendiary).
Flagged it,
We have no equivalent in Australia - Bogan or Westie being closest but that is a class and location thing rather than a racial thing.
If I see you in ugg boots (flipflops(thongs) in summer), acid wash jeans, a Megadeath tshirt, a flanny, with a cigaret in one hand and a can (tinny) of VB in the other, doing circle work in a V8 Holden Kingswood, then yeh you are a Westie or Bogan.
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I wanna base a character off of Sam Jackson's butler in Django!
What class should he be?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
<crickets>
expert. Duh.
A less scary 'redneck bard' option would be one inspired by The Devil Went Down to Georgia.
A necromancer inspired by Legend of the Wooly Swamp could also be neat.
love that song.
Just fwiw, "redneck" has a similar vile history. The etymology of the term is very similar to "poor white trash". The term grew from the observation that poor rural white folk tended to have red necks from working in fields all day.
But again, no worries with using that term either. All in good fun.
that doesn't jive with my knowledge of its origins, something about a protest against being paid unfair wages- something I think anklebiter would know of. Still I could be wrong.
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Bullshiznit. I understand quite well what the term implied and how it was used....yes, the slaveowners needed a handy term to refer to the poor that weren't their chattel...You clearly don't understand what the term implied and how it was used, and I don't feel like trying to educate you.Your comments don't indicate to me that you do.
From WIKI:
The term white trash first came into common use in the 1830s as a pejorative used by house slaves against poor whitesIt was very much a racial slur used by blacks against whites. Your comment about it's origins was dead wrong and demonstrated, to me, a complete lack of understanding of the fundamentally racist use of the term.
I'm as black as they come and the only people Ihave ever heard use the term were white. The only time I have heard the term used other than on tv was when I was living in Pennsylvania. Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people?
"The term white trash first came into common use in the 1830s as a pejorative used by house slaves against poor whites. In 1833 Fanny Kemble, an English actress visiting Georgia, noted in her journal: "The slaves themselves entertain the very highest contempt for white servants, whom they designate as 'poor white trash'".[8][9]
In 1854, Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote the chapter "Poor White Trash" in her book A Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin. Stowe tells the reader that slavery not only produces "degraded, miserable slaves", but also poor whites who are even more degraded and miserable. The plantation system forced those whites to struggle for subsistence. Beyond economic factors, Stowe traces this class to the shortage of schools and churches in their community, and says that both blacks and whites in the area look down on these "poor white trash".[10]
By 1855 the term had passed into common usage by upper class whites, and was common usage among all Southerners, regardless of race, throughout the rest of the 19th century."
Well, I was wrong about the derivation. It wasn't until two decades after some house slave coined the phrase that it became common usage among slaveowners. Glad you set me straight.
learn something new every day. Wow.
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Funny how people who are knee jerk considered the most racist of whites, were at one time looked down upon by slaves.
I think the main difference between them is that Redneck has had sort of a reclamation effort from the people it once targeted and is now a term they wear willingly - see Jeff Foxworthy et.al.
Not so much with the other.
Like the "N word"?
There's no need. There was once a thread called "Spear Chucker." It got it's name changed to Spear Hurler or something.
Funny how people who are knee jerk considered the most racist of whites, were at one time looked down upon by slaves.
Interestingly, during Nat Turner's rebellion where they slaughtered every slaveowner they could find (including children), they let the "pwt" go.
Anyway, it might look funny to us, 100 and something years later, but it's not terribly surprising. There was a long tradition of slaves identifying their social status with the status of their masters. So, a house slave of a master who owned 100 slaves could look down his nose at the house slave of a master who owned only 50 slaves. Also, on skin tone. Etc., etc. The fact that they also looked down on non-slaveholding whites? Antebellum Helsinki (EDIT: Er, Stockholm, that is) Syndrome, if you ask me.
Then, of course, there's the fact that slaves had some intrinsic worth to their masters because they represented capital. "Pwt," eh, who needs 'em? They could live and die, who cares? There's a reason there was very little in the way of, say, public schools, in the South before the Civil War.
Hey Freehold, regionally around where I reside "pwt" is used as a racial epithet from blacks to whites. I suspect it's a regional variance. If I recall you live in New York? Anyway. It's also used from white to white as a classist epithet as well, like the goblin says. I think that probably dilutes its strength as a racial one though. *shrug*
The reality is, that the use of language from minority to majority group seems to lack the same staying power or strength in usage. We don't hear the H word that's similar to a goose sound, or the saltine word either. None of which makes anyone making racial slurs to anyone else acceptable. I just kinda think there's a variance in degree. When whites use words like the N word its backed up by several hundred years of government imposed oppression. (I bet comrade anklebiter could point out the same argument could be made for classist slurs).
Nonetheless, as a guy whose opinion I respect I wonder what your take is on Samuel L Jackson, when he was asked by a white reporter to discuss the N word in Django Unchained by a white reporter. Mr. Jackson told him he wouldn't discuss it until the reporter said the word, which he refused to do.
As a white guy, I'd not feel comfortable using the word. But I guess I can see some limited times when it would be ok (like a frank discussion about the word among friends who were black, or the interview as above). I'd still be hesitant though. How do we even address these issues if we lack the capacity to talk about them?
I don't mean to put you on the spot, but as I said, I respect your opinion.
