Is this like some version of the stormwind fallacy? Building a fighter is mutually exclusive with building a character that can contribute to a campaign in any other way than besplatting thine enemies and soaking up their attempts to lay a besplatting on all the 'real characters'?I don't know what more you want out of a martial. They hit hard and are tanky. What more do you want?Stuff. I want them to do stuff. Most importantly I'd like them to play a role outside of combat and not be overshadowed(or even replaced!) by casters.
Pretty much. The area my fighters have the least trouble is out of combat.
Pretty much. The area my fighters have the least trouble is out of combat.
I have no trouble playing my wizard out of combat without spells either. He just happens to have more class features that let him do things out of combat well. Which is sort of part of the point. Fighter's still lack options inside of combat which can sting, and they absolutely lack them out of combat so even the barbarian comes off as more skilled.
I don't know what more you want out of a martial. They hit hard and are tanky. What more do you want?Whirlwind attack being a standard action and easier to get.
Taking a move action or two and tripping/disarming/etc one enemy per square moved.
Easier ways to debuff entire groups enemies via intimidation and/or awesomeness.
Much easier time jumping and other extreme feats of athleticism.
Easier time tossing one enemy into one or more other enemies.
Much easier time defending others while still being able to attack.
Really there are tons of things that should be options for the AVERAGE martial character. The problem is that most of them require a specific build and a high level to perform...so your options end up extremely limited.
Edit: And this doesn't even touch on the fact they all need a slew of out-of-combat options.
I think I have worked on this a bit in my houserules. Which I need to revisit. Basically, the fighter can do things faster than they can currently, in a sense.
i simply think there is a vast difference between pfs/modules and people who create there own adventures.Of course there is, and it is not a bad thing. But there is just as much difference between two people who create their own adventures. And none of it changes the facts of the game as written, regardless of what you think those facts are.
interestingly enough I think he has a point. I have noticed it in aps as well.
Stoneskin lasts 10min/level, and Mirror Image is low enough you can have plenty of castings. Lots of other defensive spells that last quite a while.
Druids, Summoners, Clerics, and Oracles can all do a great job of replacing martials. They have good summons, Druids have their AC, and then they have buffs. Summoners, of course, do this best from the back, but their Eidolon or Summons can be out pretty much all the time.
At mid to high levels, it is easy to avoid needing AC to have a good defense. You just stack a lot of difference kinds of forced miss chance like Displacement and Mirror Image. Add to those summons, and area spells that incapacitate enemies and you are pretty darn safe.
I suspect you've never seen a caster really played to the hilt.
Buff buff buff buff buff. Why do you have all these rounds to buff unmolested?
Stoneskin lasts 3 hours and 20 minutes at level 20. That's out of 8 hours of adventuring. Aaand it has an expensive material component. Why do you have all this money to burn?
Summons only last rounds and take 1 round to cast. How did you get this free time? Does the door have a big "the boss is behind here" sign?
You buff before combat of course. Even a 10 minutes duration is long enough for a couple encounters and with a trivial bit of magic you can have some idea of what and when you'll be encountering something most of the time. At higher levels, some of these buffs will be active all the time due to magic. Quickened spells can cover the rest. It is not hard to have two to three or more buffs active pretty much all the time at mid levels.
Stoneskin might seem expensive, but it really isn't when you take into account WBL. And 3 hours and 20 minutes is long enough for most dungeon crawls. You just need to time it right. Sure, you won't have it out every combat in the game, but it'll be there most of the time.
Lastly, beyond the Summoner, Clerics and Oracles can get access to summons that just...
hm. What if you don't have the opportunity? Or the cash?
The game actually isn't that great for a low magic game. Casters tend to throw things around too much, and the classes require magic items to keep up with the magic item treadmill(expectations put in place, that happens to deny items from being cool bonuses and instead makes them expected to kill whatever your up against next to get the upgrade to fight what you kill next to get the upgrade...)
My game is not low magic. I just like magic items meaning something. I like how The Genius Guide to: Relics of the Godlings handles magic items. They scale by level.
That +1 sword you found at level 2, might eventually scale to be a +5 Shocking Burst Vorpal sword at level 20 with a few other powers added in. A character would not need to find 5 or 6 weapons during their career if they get 1 or 2 that are useful at all levels.
You can give someone 2 or 3 well designed scaling items during their career that provide 90% of what they need and replace a set of 12 to 15 items that most campaigns would give. Then you would only need a few minor items to fill in the gaps.
God I would love some scaling magical gear. As a DM and watching people GM managing the loot flow is hardest most cumbersome part. Eventually I go with the "here's gold buy stuff" approach.
I don't know what more you want out of a martial. They hit hard and are tanky. What more do you want?Whirlwind attack being a standard action and easier to get.
It is Standard is in 3.5 if you have ToB sourcebook. You'll need to dip in the classes to get 7 initator (well 1/2 from non-ToB) to get Mithral Tornado.
But not easier to get.
Easier ways to debuff entire groups enemies via intimidation and/or awesomeness.
Never Outnumbered Skill Trick from 3.5.
Really there are tons of things that should be options for the AVERAGE martial character. The problem is that most of them require a specific build and a high level to perform...so your options end up extremely limited.Edit: And this doesn't even touch on the fact they all need a slew of out-of-combat options.
I agree on this.
I agree on this.Really there are tons of things that should be options for the AVERAGE martial character. The problem is that most of them require a specific build and a high level to perform...so your options end up extremely limited.
Edit: And this doesn't even touch on the fact they all need a slew of out-of-combat options.
Who wouldn't? There are entirely too many feat chain traps.
Who ever is saying that casters can't tank is horridly mistaken. Ill give you 3 examples:
Scarred Witch Doctor (Half-Orc Witch Archetype): Con as a primary casting stat???? Say WAT? So now the witch has stupid high con (and effectively makes reflex her only bad save). Well witches only really need their primary casting stat so then you are free to pump up your Str. Well what about armor? Simple, either take the Armor Casting feats and wear Mithril Chain, or wear and enchanted Harimaki. Oh, and this doesn't include your effectively all day buffs. In addition you have your wall of hexes that can do some really nasty things (since tehy do not trigger attacks of opportunity).
Master Summoner: being able to pop out a new monster every turn that lasts for MINUTES per level as opposed to rounds is back breaking. Being able to do it as a standard action gets even nastier. Anyone who says that a caster cannot do the tanks job has never played with a Master Summoner. Oh and he is doing this without even touching his spells. Just saying
Synthesist Summoner: This guy is the bane of some people's existance. He will have a higher HP than the tank, most probably have a higher AC than the tank, be bigger than the tank (thereby making him harder to get around), have higher strength than the tank, and have the ability to rend/pounce/rake with a wall of natural attacks. Oh! and we can't forget that he also still has his spell casting...
Oh and just 1 more:
Dragon Disciple Sorcerer: This guy is very easy to build as a tank. With huge str buffs, con buffs, nat armor, flight, and full spellcasting he makes a very lethal machine in melee. Add in the ability to sponateously turn into a dragon and he can actually get pretty lethal as a tank.
Hmm encounter where I can't prebuff spells that are not 10min/lvl or 1hour/level
Hmmmmm, I believe all of them. I may have had a handful of encounter EVER that I could precast a 1 round/lvl buff.
Do you realize that this is extremely a-typical? I can count on one hand the number of times I didn't have at least a round's worth of warning about an upcoming fight.
Is your game just an endless string of ambushes? Does nobody in your party scout or use divination magic or even just have decent perception scores?
Combine this with you talking in another thread about how you have 6 or 8 or some other high number of encounters every day, and I think it's clear that you are playing a very different game than the one that is written in the books, and that is why your perception of power here are skewed.
Keep in mind, I also play a game very different from the one in the books, but I still understand what the game I'm not playing is like (in fact, it is that understanding that led me to deviate so greatly), so when I discuss things on the forum, I use the common ground of the books, not my personal game with all my houserules and stylistic changes.
Another thread that turned into a caster classes vs Martials classes. I guess it couldn’t be avoided considering the naming of the thread.
Turned into? What, pray tell, was it before?
Yeah that about sums it up. It never was anything but that.
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Hmm encounter where I can't prebuff spells that are not 10min/lvl or 1hour/level
Hmmmmm, I believe all of them. I may have had a handful of encounter EVER that I could precast a 1 round/lvl buff.
Do you realize that this is extremely a-typical? I can count on one hand the number of times I didn't have at least a round's worth of warning about an upcoming fight.
Is your game just an endless string of ambushes? Does nobody in your party scout or use divination magic or even just have decent perception scores?
Combine this with you talking in another thread about how you have 6 or 8 or some other high number of encounters every day, and I think it's clear that you are playing a very different game than the one that is written in the books, and that is why your perception of power here are skewed.
Keep in mind, I also play a game very different from the one in the books, but I still understand what the game I'm not playing is like (in fact, it is that understanding that led me to deviate so greatly), so when I discuss things on the forum, I use the common ground of the books, not my personal game with all my houserules and stylistic changes.
In ALL the games I play, you see an enemy, they see you, roll initiative. Not you see an enemy, they see you, both sides have a free round, roll initiative.
Another thread that turned into a caster classes vs Martials classes. I guess it couldn’t be avoided considering the naming of the thread.
It's not meant to be that, and I don't believe it is that. Both roles have their place in a symbiotic type of fashion. It's when people forget that it's martials AND casters vs monsters not martials vs casters, that conflict arises.
Some people have fun playing martials, some casters.
There are many battles where the casters are much, much tougher. Recently I ran a witch that slept martials left and right. With their low will save, she basically slept some powerful martial enemy every battle. He was easily killed and not much of a challenge. This happens every single battle when fighting any group of creatures affected by sleep. This happens a ton.
I have a caster player that goes after the biggest melee guy every single battle. I designed this guy to take on the melee PCs. He knows that melee has weak will and reflex saves. So the goes after those save and incapacitates the big melee guy. Then the other casters hammer on the PC martials who usually can't touch them while the caster player doesn't bother to buff up and help the martial guys get at the enemy casters.
That's when you start realizing your martial character is seriously lacking. When the party caster has a huge amount of spells and has at least a few spells to take out any enemy.
My martial PCs don't much care for it. I always toss them some bags of meat to beat on to keep them happy.
No need to buff so much when your caster has the most hp in the party. Sure my AC isn't as high as the martial's but then I can just cast some spells to get rid of those annoying enemies who want to melee. Or debuff them so bad they can't hit my low AC.
I even tanked one boss battle because he wat attacking touch AC so armor didn't matter and our martials were busy running around feared. Casters can be squishy but they don't have to be.How did you get more HP than martials? Did they sack CON? All things being equal, they're rolling a higher HD than you and should have more on that alone.
And since you admit your AC is lower, you're hit more often making it, at best, a wash. I assume you weren't in the front, with the martials, all the time?
I did get more hp than the martials because I have a con of 22 and I put some of my favored class points in hp. Uncommon for casters but you said that casters are squishy, and this one isn't.
About being in the front: During the one encounter in which I acted as the tank and the main dd because the martials had been feared I was at the front most of the time. But as the enemy did touch attacks my AC wasn't really that mouch lower. If at all.
Here's a real question: how often do you have combats where you can't pre-buff? What's the proportion of encounters? Let's say you have reasonable scouting capability (rogue/ninja/ranger/class with stealth ranks, familiar, invisibility, divination). Would you claim that that the proportion of pre-meditated (at least one buff round) combats is more than 50%? Less than 50%? About 50%?
I hear a lot of dialogue to the degree of "what about when you CAN'T buff? What then, casters?". And I'm certainly not saying that this never comes up, but in my experience it's not all that rare to have opportunities to pre-cast buff spells. This isn't even considering hour/level spells like Overland Flight that are almost permanent by the time you're able to cast them.
95% of our battles are done without any prebuffs that lasts less than 1h/level. And who rocks the fights? Most of the time not the martials. But really we only have 2 left, one of which ia a cohort.
Another thread that turned into a caster classes vs Martials classes. I guess it couldn’t be avoided considering the naming of the thread.It's not meant to be that, and I don't believe it is that. Both roles have their place in a symbiotic type of fashion. It's when people forget that it's martials AND casters vs monsters not martials vs casters, that conflict arises.
My conflict arises when I play a fighter (something I once loved doing) and just can't help being jealous of all the cool thing others can do, while I can't do crap except swing my sword. (yes it's exaggerated in it's core its what I feel). I lost me respect for matials and especially fighters when I decided that they are not good enough for me to play.
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Response to three arguments I have seen that make no sense to me:
1. To those that say a party of completely (or mostly) martials can not function I am currently playing in a game with a Monk, Gunslinger (Musket), natural attack cat folk ninja (with dirty trick), natural attack half orc barbarian (with grapple) and a rogue (thug)/ inquisitor (intimidate base. Yes the inquisitor can cast spells but besides the fire + intimate one (can not remember the name right now) she relies on her thug abilities and judgement. I am hard pressed to think of any encounter (within CR) in combat or out that the group can not handle. The only issue is teleportation which doesn't usually come into play until late lvls anyways and we are lvl 8. So please tell me what this group can't do that a group of casters could?
2. To those that say the whole " and I full attack...again" and how boring it is. But the same thing applies to Save and Suck/Die spells. You just use a "newer" version but still are stuck doing the "same thing" again and again. I fail to see the difference. At least the martial had the joy of rolling some dice.
3. I just swing my sword while the caster is bending reality. Yes the caster can EVENTUALLY bend reality and do all sorts of weird voodoo crap. And the martial is expected to be able to single handily fight off entire armies or huge creatures like people of legend. It might not be as cool (to some people) as the caster sending the tarasque to the plane of fire but thats not what the martial trained for. He trained to fight things... and doing the whole hold the pass against the invading horde is also cool in my opinion.
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In ALL the games I play, you see an enemy, they see you, roll initiative. Not you see an enemy, they see you, both sides have a free round, roll initiative.
That is a rather disingenuous response. You can't really think that's what I'm referring to. No, I find that 95% of the time, it's more like...
...you hear through the door that there's something on the other side--with your absurdly high perception check, you think it might be X
...it appears you've tracked the creature back to it's lair--with your Survival check, you can tell that the tracks are rather fresh, so it's almost certainly home.
...[familiar, animal companion, trained bird, arcane eye, or stealthy scout character] spots a group of foes. They are [unaware of you/unconcerned with some random bird that doesn't look special/etc.]. The scout can then return to the party and tell them what they saw.
...[one of several divination spells] gives you some indication that there's definitely some combat going down soon.
...it's pretty damn obvious that the BBEG is coming up imminently for one of many different reasons.
Seriously, it's extremely rare to not have some kind of warning a fight is coming--I can't even imagine the sort of game where you wouldn't. Maybe I just play more cautiously than you?
So please tell me what this group can't do that a group of casters could?
At level 8? Not much. At level 12+? You won't have this question any more, unless the GM changes things to accommodate your party--he'll basically have to throw CR out the window, for example.
2. To those that say the whole " and I full attack...again" and how boring it is. But the same thing applies to Save and Suck/Die spells. You just use a "newer" version but still are stuck doing the "same thing" again and again. I fail to see the difference. At least the martial had the joy of rolling some dice.
I'm with you--I don't think full attacking is boring. It's just the only choice you have--even if your only choice is fun, it's better to have choices.
He trained to fight things... and doing the whole hold the pass against the invading horde is also cool in my opinion.
I agree that's it's cool, until you realize the wizard created the pass in the first place--and the only reason he included the pass was to make you feel needed, because he could have done it without the defendable gap, too.
I've notice people are starting to call campaigns homebrew again...
Or trying to say they have houserules, when they have nothing of the kind...
It's rather sad that your argument for why casters are better is "in certain campaigns played a curtain way with plenty of pre-buffing rounds, caster are LOL hax!"
I've notice people are starting to call campaigns homebrew again...
Or trying to say they have houserules, when they have nothing of the kind...
It's rather sad that your argument for why casters are better is "in certain campaigns played a curtain way with plenty of pre-buffing rounds, caster are LOL hax!"
You have that backwards. Its sad that your argument is "If the DM does not let you use tools build into the game like scouting, tracking, scrying, or perception checks then its balanced!"
There is no reason in any game not to get warning of an encounter unless something goes horribly wrong (happens to the best of us.) or your DM is railroading you.
Disallowing these things or altering their effectiveness is in fact houseruleing.
In ALL the games I play, you see an enemy, they see you, roll initiative. Not you see an enemy, they see you, both sides have a free round, roll initiative.Hmm encounter where I can't prebuff spells that are not 10min/lvl or 1hour/level
Hmmmmm, I believe all of them. I may have had a handful of encounter EVER that I could precast a 1 round/lvl buff.
Do you realize that this is extremely a-typical? I can count on one hand the number of times I didn't have at least a round's worth of warning about an upcoming fight.
Is your game just an endless string of ambushes? Does nobody in your party scout or use divination magic or even just have decent perception scores?
Combine this with you talking in another thread about how you have 6 or 8 or some other high number of encounters every day, and I think it's clear that you are playing a very different game than the one that is written in the books, and that is why your perception of power here are skewed.
Keep in mind, I also play a game very different from the one in the books, but I still understand what the game I'm not playing is like (in fact, it is that understanding that led me to deviate so greatly), so when I discuss things on the forum, I use the common ground of the books, not my personal game with all my houserules and stylistic changes.
That's not how warning works. Using perception, scouting, and/or divination, you see enemy, they don't see you, you spend a bit of time getting ready and attack them.
I've notice people are starting to call campaigns homebrew again...
Or trying to say they have houserules, when they have nothing of the kind...
It's rather sad that your argument for why casters are better is "in certain campaigns played a curtain way with plenty of pre-buffing rounds, caster are LOL hax!"
You have that backwards. Its sad that your argument is "If the DM does not let you use tools build into the game like scouting, tracking, scrying, or perception checks then its balanced!"
There is no reason in any game not to get warning of an encounter unless something goes horribly wrong (happens to the best of us.) or your DM is railroading you.
Disallowing these things or altering their effectiveness is in fact houseruleing.
Ah I see now. You assume I am disallowing things. Well that's your problem.
Ah I see now. You assume I am disallowing things. Well that's your problem.
"If your game is unbalanced, it's because of bad DMing!"
It's not an "assumption" when you state point-blank that that's what happens. You can't have it both ways. Either you follow the rules as written in an unbiased fashion (i.e., are a "bad DM"), or you maintain balance in your game by your rulings (i.e., are a "good DM" by disallowing things). Which one is it?
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The whole "Its fine with enough DM tampering so its balanced" argument is nothing short of idiotic. Yes with enough tampering anything can be done... freaking duh. That in no way means the game is balanced.
...you hear through the door that there's something on the other side--with your absurdly high perception check, you think it might be X
My group/s: Listen through a door? Ha! We kick that b#@%& open! (sometimes literally)
...it appears you've tracked the creature back to it's lair--with your Survival check, you can tell that the tracks are rather fresh, so it's almost certainly home.
Can happen.
......[familiar, animal companion, trained bird, arcane eye, or stealthy scout character] spots a group of foes. They are [unaware of you/unconcerned with some random bird that doesn't look special/etc.]. The scout can then return to the party and tell them what they saw.
My group/s: That's WAY more trouble than it's worth. We just walk our path. If we walk into a clearing and there's an enemy camp there, we see each other at the same time...and then we kick their ass.
...[one of several divination spells] gives you some indication that there's definitely some combat going down soon.
My group/s: WASTE a spell LOOKING at something when you could spend that spell blasting or Hasting???? LOL!
...it's pretty damn obvious that the BBEG is coming up imminently for one of many different reasons.
Happens sometimes.
Seriously, it's extremely rare to not have some kind of warning a fight is coming--I can't even imagine the sort of game where you wouldn't. Maybe I just play more cautiously than you?
Our groups play VERY differently. My group would see your style as tedious and a little cowardly. You would probably see mine as foolhardy.
I agree that with a chance to buff often, that helps casters who want to pretend to be martials. Still, why not just buff the martial? You know what's better than casting Barkskin so your AC is closer to the Fighters? Giving the Fighter 2 more AC. YMMV I guess.
In ALL the games I play, you see an enemy, they see you, roll initiative. Not you see an enemy, they see you, both sides have a free round, roll initiative.Hmm encounter where I can't prebuff spells that are not 10min/lvl or 1hour/level
Hmmmmm, I believe all of them. I may have had a handful of encounter EVER that I could precast a 1 round/lvl buff.
Do you realize that this is extremely a-typical? I can count on one hand the number of times I didn't have at least a round's worth of warning about an upcoming fight.
Is your game just an endless string of ambushes? Does nobody in your party scout or use divination magic or even just have decent perception scores?
Combine this with you talking in another thread about how you have 6 or 8 or some other high number of encounters every day, and I think it's clear that you are playing a very different game than the one that is written in the books, and that is why your perception of power here are skewed.
Keep in mind, I also play a game very different from the one in the books, but I still understand what the game I'm not playing is like (in fact, it is that understanding that led me to deviate so greatly), so when I discuss things on the forum, I use the common ground of the books, not my personal game with all my houserules and stylistic changes.
Man, rogues using stealth must have it tough in your games. In my mind, scouting is one of the main ways that ninjas and rogues contribute. The added utility of allowing the rest of the group to pre-buff is substantial.
No they don't. Not even if you have an infinite CLW wand.
Barbarians run out of rage. Cavaliers run out of challenges and tactician uses. Gunslingers run out of grit. Monks run out of ki and stunning fists. Paladins run out of smites and spells. Rangers run out of spells. Samurai run out of challenges and resolve.
And fighters and rogues either suck it up and stay with the party or die horribly because every other class in the game goes back to camp when they get close to the point where a random encounter is a mortal threat.
Being resourceless isn't an advantage when you have to adventure with people that have resources. All it means is that a class is a bit easier for absent minded people to play.
When the Dwarf slows down the rest of the party because we can all move 30ft and he can only move 20ft, sure we slow down for him. But let's not pretend he's not slowing us all down.
The fact that casters who nova all the time run out of spells way before Rage, Grit, Ki, etc. IS a fault on their part. They ARE slowing down the entire party. That should not be forgotten.
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The fact that casters who nova all the time run out of spells way before Rage, Grit, Ki, etc. IS a fault on their part. They ARE slowing down the entire party. That should not be forgotten.
Which completely misses the point? Movement speed is something else entirely. Are you really going to tell someone they can't play a dwarf its too slow? The dwarf wizards disagrees anyway. His teleport spell really sped things up. At first a level a wizard who throws out a color spray has a chance to end the encounter in a single action. Not slowing anyone down. Haste speeds things up usually! Besides, at later levels by the time you run totally out the adventuring day is already over.
Its not the fault of the players that their classes have few ways to recharge their abilities. That sort of lies on the system and those who made it. x/day is horrendously balanced and forces the DM to plan around it, rather than doing their own gig. Never made me happy.
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Which completely misses the point? Movement speed is something else entirely. Are you really going to tell someone they can't play a dwarf its too slow? The dwarf wizards disagrees anyway. His teleport spell really sped things up. At first a level a wizard who throws out a color spray has a chance to end the encounter in a single action. Not slowing anyone down. Haste speeds things up usually! Besides, at later levels by the time you run totally out the adventuring day is already over.
Its not the fault of the players that their classes have few ways to recharge their abilities. That sort of lies on the system and those who made it. x/day is horrendously balanced and forces the DM to plan around it, rather than doing their own gig. Never made me happy.
The Dwarf is awesome and I never said no one should play him. His slow speed is a fault when walking. It's ok to acknowledge this. It doesn't mean he doesn't have other positive attributes. That doesn't mean he's not slow.
A Wizard who novas and is empty by encounter 2 of the day looked great for 2 encounters and is now dead weight. To me, that's a bug not a feature. A better Wizard would pace himself. He wouldn't look as good in combat, but he'd have more staying power.
A Wizard who novas and is empty by encounter 2 of the day looked great for 2 encounters and is now dead weight. To me, that's a bug not a feature. A better Wizard would pace himself. He wouldn't look as good in combat, but he'd have more staying power.
I agree, that is a problem, but its one that's been here since forever with this whole vancian casting thing isn't it? Not so experienced with the earlier editions myself, so don't take my word for it. Even if you pace yourself the game still needs to be built around it. Sending a 1st level wizard against 12 encounters is probably going to force him to use a crossbow a lot.
Anyways, doesn't have much to do with martials lack of respect does it? More so its martials having their job emulated by others and their lack of being interesting. Fighters just hit things. Great! Everyone hits things. Do you do cool things when you hit things? Do it in a special way? Useful out of combat? Umm... social skills? Well at least he's useful in combat. Wait, difficult terrain or flying foe? Darn! Invisible foe? Still not good. Umm... well... yeah. Meanwhile the wizard cast summon monster, fly, charm, glitterdust, and invisibility(a few of those from a scroll preferably). Not a big fan of wizard/fighter comparisons, but they are pretty straightforward.
"lack of respect" feels like a really negative way to put it. I really want the martial classes to be fun and interesting. When I was a kid they were all I wanted to play, but they just don't do much. Even between each other they still end up full attacking a lot. However if I play a cleric or a wizard I have a lot of options, and I can build them in lots of ways and still go back to others if I want because its not really that punishing to use spells outside of your schools or specialization. That's why I jump on Gish or ToB, its not perfect, but it does have a different feel than the other martials. I have options, that's important in DnD. ToB made me feel like a physical exemplar more than the fighter class in pathfinder ever did. I also was useful outside of combat, which is what all my fighters felt like they lack. I could roleplay all I want, but when my paladin or fighter had to roll a skill check he was just doomed from the start. Set up for failure. At best I could hope the DM designed a good way for me to get around it without a skill check.
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The whole argument about martials being useless comes from theory craft based in a perfect scenario in which you'll have everything you need as a caster prepped and ready for the encounter before hand and your gm allows you to buff before the initiative roll and you still somehow have enough spells per day to use on damage spells that have been metamagiced the crap out of to do a lot of damage. Then the idea is that once your resourses are depleted for the day you use magic to go somewhere safe to rest and use magic to travel right back 8 hours later and nothing has changed like someone hit pause on the world while you were gone.
Simply put, it never happens that way. A martial is better prepared for any eventuality rather than one perfect encounter what realistically never happens. Bad guy caught the party with its pants down? Martial can grab their weapon and proceed to attack the enemy head on while the casters have to waist 3-5 rounds just buffing the party and themselves (assuming they have the spells left to do so).
Magic is great, sure. but it isn't infinite. A sword can be swung forever.
And the whole argument about battlefield control being a casters means of making the martial job "janitor work" is strupid because martial can do that too. Its called using combat maneuvers. Grapple>pin>tie up>move on. If you build a fighter right, he can acomplish all that in 1 round, same as a sleep spell, except now what determines success is the fighters stats, not the dice roll for a save....better if you ask me.
Any class can excel at something if you build it to do that. No class can excel at Everything. I tried to make a caster that could fill the role of any other party member at any given time...I found that although the are spells that allow me to accomplish this, I can't have access to all of them and still be a spontaneous caster.
So there you have it. A caster can be anything he wants, but not everything. Materials can too, they just build differently.
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...you hear through the door that there's something on the other side--with your absurdly high perception check, you think it might be XMy group/s: Listen through a door? Ha! We kick that b#@%& open! (sometimes literally)
...it appears you've tracked the creature back to it's lair--with your Survival check, you can tell that the tracks are rather fresh, so it's almost certainly home.Can happen.
......[familiar, animal companion, trained bird, arcane eye, or stealthy scout character] spots a group of foes. They are [unaware of you/unconcerned with some random bird that doesn't look special/etc.]. The scout can then return to the party and tell them what they saw.My group/s: That's WAY more trouble than it's worth. We just walk our path. If we walk into a clearing and there's an enemy camp there, we see each other at the same time...and then we kick their ass.
...[one of several divination spells] gives you some indication that there's definitely some combat going down soon.My group/s: WASTE a spell LOOKING at something when you could spend that spell blasting or Hasting???? LOL!
...it's pretty damn obvious that the BBEG is coming up imminently for one of many different reasons.Happens sometimes.
Seriously, it's extremely rare to not have some kind of warning a fight is coming--I can't even imagine the sort of game where you wouldn't. Maybe I just play more cautiously than you?
Our groups play VERY differently. My group would see your style as tedious and a little cowardly. You would probably see mine as foolhardy.
I agree that with a chance to buff often, that helps casters who want to pretend to be martials. Still, why not just buff the martial? You know what's better than casting Barkskin so your AC is closer to the Fighters? Giving the Fighter 2 more AC. YMMV I guess.
Wow.. just wow.. So your whole argument for martails being fine is completely based on "My group plays like impatient meatheads so your tactics are invalid everywhere always!!11!"
Seriously the fact that your group/s do not use the tools built into the system does not have any weight on weather there is balance in the system.
Honestly, playing a level 9 Conjurer right now. 1 Summon Monster 5 to get 3 Hound Archons is enough to make a pretty solid contribution to most fights. I can do that 2 more times, and then for the rest of the fights I'm "stuck" with my level 3 and 4 spell slots. These summons aren't subject to saves or SR. Sure, they might not win a fight by themselves-- but if I get lucky and score 4 of them, then haste them, then they actually probably will win a fight all by themselves.
Also, by the time I've expended my levels 3, 4, and 5 spells, the Paladin's probably running low on Smite Evil and Lay on Hands as well. And there's no scroll for Smite Evil. This "glass cannon" or "limited use" caster is such a myth.
I'm definitely not saying that casters win every encounter all of the time. I'm just saying that they have more situations in which they can make substantive contributions. That's why I'm honestly asking about different poster's experiences with "pre-buffs". In my experience, for example, it breaks down like this:
60% of the time: we know combat is about to occur and at least have an opportunity to pre-buff, even if we don't get a surprise round. A large part of the credit for this goes to the party ninja who takes his scouting role very seriously. Could my wizard do the scouting? Sure, I suppose, but not without expending resources. So personally I find the Ninja valuable.
5-10%: pure "bandit in the woods" ambushes. No time for buffs, the enemies possibly get a surprise round. Not a good time to be a caster, but honestly not a good time to be anybody. But I've never been dropped without being able to do something in this case, so I've never felt "screwed".
30-35%: we know combat is possible, but little time to prepare. Like if a captain of the thieves' guild invites you into his cellar for a "chat". The party can talk their way out of it and avoid combat. If they fail, combat occurs. No pre-buff (except for long term 10 min/level hour/level buffs) but no "ambush" scenario either.
So honestly, I'm assuming most games have some balance between prepared and unprepared combats. In prepared, casters are pretty amazing. In unprepared, slightly less efficient, but can still be strong contributors. YMMV
Except that the casters don't need to Nova, one, maybe two well placed high DC or Persistent spells will end the encounter before it begins. A persistent Glitterdust or Stinking Cloud or a Dazing Fireball leaves the enemies near to helpless. They can then be mopped up by the Druid's summons or melee from a martially orientated Oracle or Cleric.
The martial characters could do the same but they don't bring anything more to the table. The martially orientated casters do the mop up and bring full casting to the table.
Yes sometimes things will save against your spell but if you bring a group of, say, a Teleportation Wizard, Battlefield Control Sorcerer, Battle Oracle and Druid will have four chances on that first turn to negate the enemies actions so making all four saves will be a rarity.
Daze lasts one round those summons or martially inclined casters have lower attack bonuses an less damage when they do hit. The enemies will recover before that caster party can drop them all.
And then what? Cast another one? How many resources will you waste per fight to keep enemies pinned down for "mop up"? A Fighter likes pinned down enemies but doesn't need them. He can fight enemies, and win handily, even if the casters all take a nap.
A Wizard who novas and is empty by encounter 2 of the day looked great for 2 encounters and is now dead weight. To me, that's a bug not a feature. A better Wizard would pace himself. He wouldn't look as good in combat, but he'd have more staying power.I agree, that is a problem, but its one that's been here since forever with this whole vancian casting thing isn't it? Not so experienced with the earlier editions myself, so don't take my word for it. Even if you pace yourself the game still needs to be built around it. Sending a 1st level wizard against 12 encounters is probably going to force him to use a crossbow a lot.
Anyways, doesn't have much to do with martials lack of respect does it? More so its martials having their job emulated by others and their lack of being interesting. Fighters just hit things. Great! Everyone hits things. Do you do cool things when you hit things? Do it in a special way? Useful out of combat? Umm... social skills? Well at least he's useful in combat. Wait, difficult terrain or flying foe? Darn! Invisible foe? Still not good. Umm... well... yeah. Meanwhile the wizard cast summon monster, fly, charm, glitterdust, and invisibility(a few of those from a scroll preferably). Not a big fan of wizard/fighter comparisons, but they are pretty straightforward.
"lack of respect" feels like a really negative way to put it. I really want the martial classes to be fun and interesting. When I was a kid they were all I wanted to play, but they just don't do much. Even between each other they still end up full attacking a lot. However if I play a cleric or a wizard I have a lot of options, and I can build them in lots of ways and still go back to others if I want because its not really that punishing to use spells outside of your schools or specialization. That's why I jump on Gish or ToB, its not perfect, but it does have a different feel than the other martials. I have options, that's important in DnD. ToB made me feel like a physical exemplar more than the...
The "lack of respect" comes in because people look at what the novaer can do and pretend like that's "normal". Hence the always prepared caster. The always has the right item caster. The always has infinite money caster.
If that were normal than martials really do become "janitors". But it doesn't work that way. The idea of normal needs to be brought back down to reality.
The "lack of respect" comes in because people look at what the novaer can do and pretend like that's "normal". Hence the always prepared caster. The always has the right item caster. The always has infinite money caster.
The "novaer" isn't the one who sets everyone up to be a janitor. A single color spray isn't a nova. A single persistent glitterdust isn't a nova. No ones given an infinite money caster or right item caster.
Both of those spells have rather limited AOE's there's nothing wrong with "debuffing" a few enemies. If you "end the encounter", I question why the enemies were so clumped together.
Color Spray requires the caster to walk right up to the enemy practically. They pass, and now the caster needs the martial to bail him out. Unless of course this is one of those melee casters, which of course he is. Or he'll Teleport. Or cast another spell. You're at the "always prepared caster" stage.
I am not a fan of th book keeping required for prepared casters. As such my examples almost always use sorcerers and oracles and are therefore not subject to the schroedinger effect.
I totally hear you. Prepared spellcaster bookkeeping is a pain. In general, I stick to a pretty specific spell-list. So if a poster brings up a situation in which my prepared spells won't suffice, then I'm more than willing to admit that I'm boned. If the combat is one in which spamming Summon Spells and webbing dudes will work, then I'm feeling good. So far this has applied to pretty much every combat. I also keep spell slots with no spells prepared and have Fast Study, so if there's an out-of-combat situation and I have (literally) one minute, I can prepare any known spell. So that's where I'm coming from when I talk about caster utility.
Granted, I'm arguing from a premise that states that casters will be substantially more effective substantially more often than non-casters. I'm more than willing to concede that there are cases in which this won't be the case. So if you ask me what I'll do in an encounter where the bad guy drops an Anti-Magic field, I'll say "twiddle my thumbs, I guess". I don't have the 3 or 4 conjuration spells that will still allow me to do something, so I'm kind of screwed. But this doesn't really change anything about caster/martial disparities. You might as well ask how my party paladin will fare if he's forced to fight underwater. Well, poorly, I would assume. But we don't have a rash of underwater encounters, so what does that point demonstrate?
That said, wizards with a Bonded Object get to legitimately act as Schroedinger's Wizard twice a day! And really, that's going to be enough 80-90% of the time.
You're at the "always prepared caster" stage.
Now your just being picky. I was giving examples of commonly used spells. Metamagic elemental rime fireball is another option. There are a lot of options. You know what martials don't get? Options!