|
I've googled this about fifty times in the last week and gotten fifty different answers.
If you have a rapier in one hand, and a bite attack, and a BAB of +6/+1, and you do a Full Attack, what attacks do you get?
As far as I can tell, you get a Rapier attack at +6 (+6 for BAB), a Rapier attack at +1 (+1 for BAB), and a Bite attack at +1 (+6 for BAB, -5 for secondary natural attack).
The bite is secondary because using a natural attack along with manufactured weapons automatically makes all natural attacks secondary.
The Bestiary rules seem to indicate that you take your weapon attacks normally, and that you take all Natural attacks at a -5 for being secondary. So that means no penalties to the weapon attacks, right?
You are correct, and if your doing only natural attack routines and had bite/claw/claw they would each be at +6 but none at +1, and if it was bite/claw/claw/wing/wing the bite and claw attacks would be +6 but the wings would be +1.
Also note: secondary attacks only get 1/2 strength bonus to damage.
There are also specific rules for when you only have one attack (always primary and it gets x1.5 strength bonus to damage), but that is trumped by the rule with weapons. So it would get full power if you did a standard attack with the bite, but it would be far weaker with the rapier since the manufactured weapon takes up much more of your attention.
|
|
Also note: secondary attacks only get 1/2 strength bonus to damage.
There are also specific rules for when you only have one attack (always primary and it gets x1.5 strength bonus to damage), but that is trumped by the rule with weapons. So it would get full power if you did a standard attack with the bite, but it would be far weaker with the rapier since the manufactured weapon takes up much more of your attention.
My Weapon Finesse feat and my 10 Strength are okay with this. :)
Thanks for the help everybody!
(P.S. Weapon Finesse works on natural attacks, right?)
(P.S. Weapon Finesse works on natural attacks, right?)
That it does!
Muahahahhaha! Now if only I could enchant my teeth as Agile...
You can actually, with an amulet of mighty fist. If you get someone to cast Magic Fang or greater magic fang on you then you can bypass DR/magic without paying for the +1. 4000 gold to make all my natural attacks go off dex with my 26 dex/10 strength character? Yes please! You can also put menacing and cruelty on it if you happen to flank a lot or give foes the shaken condition often. Lots of cool tricks with that amulet.
Does this qualify as teaching someone bad things behind their GMs back?
|
|
Muahahahhaha! Now if only I could enchant my teeth as Agile...You can actually, with an amulet of mighty fist. If you get someone to cast Magic Fang or greater magic fang on you then you can bypass DR/magic without paying for the +1. 4000 gold to make all my natural attacks go off dex with my 26 dex/10 strength character? Yes please! You can also put menacing and cruelty on it if you happen to flank a lot or give foes the shaken condition often. Lots of cool tricks with that amulet.
Does this qualify as teaching someone bad things behind their GMs back?
Oh my. :3
Would an Amulet of Agile Fists be a viable Pathfinder Society item? I'm still quite new to PFS and not certain whether that would be something I could purchase.
What an interesting item. I had no idea it could grant special qualities.
Fascinating... now I just need to figure out the best way to get multiple natural attacks. Tieflings can get two claws, does anybody get more?Would an Amulet of Agile Fists be a viable Pathfinder Society item?Absolutely =)
Go Tiefling and get a 1d6 bite and then go Barbarian and pick up Lesser Beast Totem. That will give you claws whenever you rage.
Another way to get claws would be to go Natural Weapon Ranger and pick up Claws of the Beast. Those claws do 1d4 but you don't have to worry about running out of rage.
Then get an Amulet of Mighty Fists and that one item will allow you to have magic abilities on all of your natural attacks. On top of that, you can get Magic Fang for extra bonuses to hit and damage.
Fascinating... now I just need to figure out the best way to get multiple natural attacks. Tieflings can get two claws, does anybody get more?Would an Amulet of Agile Fists be a viable Pathfinder Society item?Absolutely =)
Claw/claw/bite is pretty easy to get and there are dozens of ways to get it. Helm of the mammoth lord gives a gore. Cloak of the Manta Ray gives a tail, but it eats up your cloak slot which is pretty valuable. Barbarian can get a bite from animal fury, and beast totem line gives claws, natural armor, and pounce so you can get all of your attacks off almost all the time and at full BAB. Assimar can get wings and attack with them, but you need to be at least 13th level so its not viable for society.
Seven I think is the most I've gotten on a character, but I know there's a build somewhere with 11 or so. 11 natural attacks would probably get the book thrown at you.
Oh and if you get Speed on your Amulet of Mighty Fists that would add an extra attack to each of your natural attacks (unless that's been ruled on otherwise in PFS) so claw/claw/bite becomes claw/claw/claw/claw/bite/bite.
If you are 2wf and also have a bite attack (like a Tengu), would the bite be at -7 (-5 for secondary, -2 for 2wf)?
Oh and if you get Speed on your Amulet of Mighty Fists that would add an extra attack to each of your natural attacks (unless that's been ruled on otherwise in PFS) so claw/claw/bite becomes claw/claw/claw/claw/bite/bite.
Negative on that, Houston.
Amulet of Mighty Fists: If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as bite/claw/claw) wears an amulet with the speed property, does it get one extra attack with each of its natural weapons?
No... mainly because that combination is way too good for monsters with multiple attacks, and gets better the more natural attacks a monster has. Doubling a creature's attacks per round is really powerful, even for 80,000 gp (the price of a +4 amulet).
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11
Also, if for the sake of flavor you wanted to go unarmored and be a savage beast running around naked you could get a decent AC if you go high dex/wis Monk/Ranger. Tieflings can get +1 natural AC.
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 10
1st level Monk1
Feat: Weapon Finesse
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike/Bite +3/-2 1d6/1d6 OR Flurry +2/+2 1d6/1d6
AC: 17
2nd level Monk1/Ranger1
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike/Bite +4/-1 1d6/1d6 OR Flurry +3/+3 1d6/1d6
AC: 17
3rd level Monk1/Ranger2
Feat: Aspect of the Beast (Claws)
Feat: Dodge
Full Attack: Claw/Claw/Bite +5/+5/+5 1d4/1d4/1d6
AC: 18
Also if you went shapeshifter Ranger you could use Shifter's Blessing to gain +2 to AC or +4str. At 12th level you can both at the same time.
Plus you can get an animal companion to flank with and provide extra damage.
If you are 2wf and also have a bite attack (like a Tengu), would the bite be at -7 (-5 for secondary, -2 for 2wf)?
Nope, the bite stays at -5.
TWF reduces the penalties for using two manufactured weapons to get an additional attack within the turn. Improved TWF gives additional off-hand attacks.
None of these interact with natural attacks in any way. The only thing that happens to your natural attacks is that they all are demoted to secondary (-5 to hit, Str/2 to damage) if you use any non-zero number of manufactured weapon attacks during your full attack pattern, regardless whether you are using only one weapon, two weapons with or without TWF, or a bajillion weapons using MWF.
Oh and if you get Speed on your Amulet of Mighty Fists that would add an extra attack to each of your natural attacks (unless that's been ruled on otherwise in PFS) so claw/claw/bite becomes claw/claw/claw/claw/bite/bite.Negative on that, Houston.
Amulet of Mighty Fists: If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as bite/claw/claw) wears an amulet with the speed property, does it get one extra attack with each of its natural weapons?
No... mainly because that combination is way too good for monsters with multiple attacks, and gets better the more natural attacks a monster has. Doubling a creature's attacks per round is really powerful, even for 80,000 gp (the price of a +4 amulet).
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11
I figured it had probably been ruled on at some point but hadn't seen it yet. Thanks. :)
Also, if for the sake of flavor you wanted to go unarmored and be a savage beast running around naked you could get a decent AC if you go high dex/wis Monk/Ranger.
Alternatively, be a straight superstitious/beast totem barbarian and wear a chainmail bikini called a breastplate. I've seen artist draw monks with more armor than their fighters... Not that I mind a shirtless barbarians at all.
Also, if for the sake of flavor you wanted to go unarmored and be a savage beast running around naked you could get a decent AC if you go high dex/wis Monk/Ranger.Alternatively, be a straight superstitious/beast totem barbarian and wear a chainmail bikini called a breastplate. I've seen artist draw monks with more armor than their fighters... Not that I mind a shirtless barbarians at all.
Oh or add Savage/Beast Totem Barbarian after the Monk1/Ranger2 and gain Rage on top of the Shapeshifter Ranger. Plus when you get your first Rage Power at Barb2 you could pick up Lesser Fiend Totem and gain a 1d8 Gore attack. At Barb 3 & 9 you get an extra +1 to AC for Savage Barb.
Claw/Claw/Bite/Gore all at full attack bonus 1d4/1d4/1d6/1d8.
Since it's been ruled that Speed won't give you an extra attack for each natural weapon (I'm assuming it will give you an extra attack with any one of them though) you could still use it to get an extra Gore attack while raging or an extra Bite when not raging.
This would of course require an alignment change from Lawful but that won't cause you to lose any Monk abilities. You just won't be able to progress any more as a Monk.
Oh or add superstitious/beast totem barbarian after the Monk1/Ranger2 and gain Rage on top of the Shapeshifter Ranger. Plus when you get your first Rage Power at Barb2 you could pick up Lesser Fiend Totem and gain a 1d8 Gore attack.
]
Fiend totem isn't that great, if you take it, you then can't get beast totem. Pounce and the AC is worth far more than a gore you can buy. You shouldn't multiclass that much in pathfinder anyway, a lot of your scaling abilities suffer. You also have to remember many of the abilities from shapeshifter are typed, which means they won't stack with other abilities. The strength bonus is an enhancement, and isn't any good for someone with agile natural attacks. The +2 armor is natural armor, and doesn't stack with tieflings natural armor, nor beast totems, only enhancement bonuses to natural armor and other armor bonuses.
Since it's been ruled that Speed won't give you an extra attack for each natural weapon (I'm assuming it will give you an extra attack with any one of them though) you could still use it to get an extra Gore attack while raging or an extra Bite when not raging.
The amulet cost 80k if your just going to put speed on it. Its just not worth it. 4000 for agile sure, but 80k is pretty late in the game and definitely not worth it for a single attack that doesn't stack with haste.
Fiend totem isn't that great, if you take it, you then can't get beast totem. Pounce and the AC is worth far more than a gore you can buy.
True. The Beast Totem line would be a better line to go down in this case and he could just get a helm to give him the gore attack.
You shouldn't multiclass that much in pathfinder anyway, a lot of your scaling abilities suffer.
Not really losing much in this instance. The 1 level of Monk gives him 3AC and a good attack for the first two levels. The scaling Ranger abilities aren't that good anyway but he could always lose the Ranger and go 1Monk and then rest Barb and just use the rage powers to get his attacks. Then he has to use a weapon when not raging.
You also have to remember many of the abilities from shapeshifter are typed, which means they won't stack with other abilities. The strength bonus is an enhancement, and isn't any good for someone with agile natural attacks. The +2 armor is natural armor, and doesn't stack with tieflings natural armor, nor beast totems, only enhancement bonuses to natural armor and other armor bonuses...
You're right about the strength bonus but the natural armor bonus is untyped. It's not typed bonus like an enhancement bonus. Natural Armor bonuses always stack.
You shouldn't multiclass that much in pathfinder anyway, a lot of your scaling abilities suffer.Not really losing much in this instance. The 1 level of Monk gives him 3AC and a good attack for the first two levels. The scaling Ranger abilities aren't that good anyway but he could always lose the Ranger and go 1Monk and then rest Barb and just use the rage powers to get his attacks. Then he has to use a weapon when not raging.
Its a fallacy that you get more AC, you don't get 3 AC. You get 3 AC while naked that doesn't scale. Or you can just put on a shirt. Being unarmored in pathfinder is suboptimal except for some straight monk archetypes or a wild shaped druid. Nothing is keeping you from just not wearing much armor but still writing breastplate on your character sheet.
Wasn't complaining about the rangers scaling, that wasn't scaling much if at all anyway. I was stating that if you go straight barbarian your higher level barbarian abilities sooner and they will be scaled better. Same with most classes in pathfinder.
You also have to remember many of the abilities from shapeshifter are typed, which means they won't stack with other abilities. The strength bonus is an enhancement, and isn't any good for someone with agile natural attacks. The +2 armor is natural armor, and doesn't stack with tieflings natural armor, nor beast totems, only enhancement bonuses to natural armor and other armor bonuses...You're right about the strength bonus but the natural armor bonus is untyped. It's not typed bonus like an enhancement bonus. Natural Armor bonuses always stack.
Relevant text.
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
|
|
You're right about the strength bonus but the natural armor bonus is untyped. It's not typed bonus like an enhancement bonus. Natural Armor bonuses always stack.
"Natural armor" is a type. As far as I know, natural armor bonuses do not stack with one another.
Now, an Amulet of Natural Armor, on the other hand, does not grant a Natural Armor bonus to armor class. It gives an enhancement bonus to natural armor (which in turn increases your armor class). So a tiefling's scaled skin stacks just fine with the amulet.
EDIT:Ninja'd!
An Amulet of Mighty Fists with Speed on it is only 36,000gp.
It does! The SKR quote is form before errata then. Still not worth it to get something that doesn't stack with haste imo, that's something the caster usually lays down and that's a lot of gold to put into it.
Its a fallacy that you get more AC, you don't get 3 AC. You get 3 AC while naked that doesn't scale. Or you can just put on a shirt. Being unarmored in pathfinder is suboptimal except for some straight monk archetypes or a wild shaped druid. Nothing is keeping you from just not wearing much armor but still writing breastplate on your character sheet.
It's not a fallacy. You basically give up 1 BAB and pushing your other abilities out one level for 3 AC (the equivalent of 3 feats). It IS armor. I didn't make claim of optimal. Just what could be done. It's always more optimal to wear armor.
I have a personal problem with writing down that my character is wearing armor and saying that it's not. If the armor isn't there then what's causing his movement rate to drop? What's causing him to be fatigued from resting if there's nothing there? It's hard to justify having to remove your armor to rest if the character is described as not wearing any armor. Where's all that extra weight coming from? Plus, mechanically he still counts as wearing metal armor. How is that guy casting Heat Metal on the dude who's not wearing any armor?!
Relevant text.A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to...
Well I stand corrected.
I have a personal problem with writing down that my character is wearing armor and saying that it's not.
I didn't say pretend your literally naked. My example was a chainmail bikini. Invisible breastplate is comparatively silly. There's a way to be who you want to be without shooting yourself in the foot.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you're looking at doing a straight natural attacking build, here's a few other things that might be worth considering. I went ahead and spoilered everything for length/readability.
Classes:
Races:
Other:
Amulet of Mighty Fists: 4000g minimum for a weapon enchantment to all of your natural attacks
Helm of the Mammoth Lord: 8500g for endure elements against the cold and a primary gore attack.
Tentacle Cloak: 14000g for two secondary tentacle attacks with 10ft reach and the grab monster ability.
Wyvern Cloak 78600g for featherfall, fly once perday, and a primary sting attack with poison.
Wand of Monstrous Extremities: 11250g for 50 uses of 2 extra natural attacks (tentacle, hoof or wing) for 3 hours per use. If you used witch to get the white hair, then you can cast this without a check, provided you have an int of 14+
Cracked pale green ioun stone: +1 competence bonus on all attack rolls. Fantastic when you are throwing this many attacks.
I probably forgot something, but oh well. I hope it's useful.
Fascinating... now I just need to figure out the best way to get multiple natural attacks. Tieflings can get two claws, does anybody get more?Would an Amulet of Agile Fists be a viable Pathfinder Society item?Absolutely =)
Tengu can get Claw/Claw/Beak. Which qualfies them for Multiattack.
Kobolds can get Bite/Tail and can pick up claw/claw from Aspect of the Beast.
Catfolk can get claw/claw (nicely upgradable), pick up bite from traits, plus pounce.
If you're looking at doing a straight natural attacking build, here's a few other things that might be worth considering. I went ahead and spoilered everything for length/readability.
Classes:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
One correction on the Tiefling. They can get a Bite (1d6) or Claw (1d4) attacks with Maw or Claw.
Fascinating... now I just need to figure out the best way to get multiple natural attacks. Tieflings can get two claws, does anybody get more?Would an Amulet of Agile Fists be a viable Pathfinder Society item?Absolutely =)Tengu can get Claw/Claw/Beak. Which qualfies them for Multiattack.
Kobolds can get Bite/Tail and can pick up claw/claw from Aspect of the Beast.
Catfolk can get claw/claw (nicely upgradable), pick up bite from traits, plus pounce.
What trait are you referencing that a Catfolk could get a bite from?
[Advanced Player's Guide] Adopted (Social) + [Orcs of Golarion] Tusked (Race) = Primary Natural 1d4 bite for the cost of both your traits.
To be clear, this works with any race. It's more significant for Catfolk because they can improve their claw damage in more ways than most (and if you're a rogue, sneak attack damage with the claws too).
Most characters with a decent charisma can pick up temporary claws or bite through the eldritch heritage feat. Serpentine bloodline sorcerers have venomous fangs btw, which can go very well on rogues or ninjas (this requires skill focus diplomacy as a feat or from being a half-elf).
Tengu can get Claw/Claw/Beak. Which qualfies them for Multiattack.
But not in PFS.
Boohooo :-(
[Advanced Player's Guide] Adopted (Social) + [Orcs of Golarion] Tusked (Race) = Primary Natural 1d4 bite for the cost of both your traits.
Just as a quick note cause it dose seem relevant here, Adopted gives you an extra third trait when you take it, here is James Jacobs Post on the Adopted Trait giving a clarification to its wording.
So using Adopted to get a free race trait (such as Tusked), then you still have your second trait you may still choose.
Tengu can get Claw/Claw/Beak. Which qualfies them for Multiattack.But not in PFS.
Boohooo :-(
No loss. Its really hard to get secondary attacks in pathfinder and bite and claw aren't secondary. Unless the feat also gives you a bonus attack at -5 anyway.