| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Text from the Lead Blades spell:
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are.Text from the Impact magic weapon special ability:
An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger.
There's no Named Bonus for this kind of buff, so do they stack, or not?
hm... really? Why does that matter? in other words: where does it say that a weapon ability's prereq doesnt stack with the weapon ability?
Two abilities that have the exact same effect generally don't stack. As an example energy resistance from different sources does not stack.
A better example is protection from energy and energy resistance. They both reduce incoming energy damage, but in a different way, but you will have to burn through protection from energy before energy resistance comes into play.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They still both increase what the base weapon. So even if they did stack, Impact takes the medium weapon to large, Lead Blades goes from the medium weapon to large.
|
Another example is that a Belt of Mighty Strength and the spell Bull's Strength don't stack. It keeps people from doing ridiculously overpowered things like raising an earthbreaker's base damage to 4d6 or so damage with Lead Blades and Impact Special Weapon Quality. It would be incredibly fun if it worked like that though, because then I'd have a Metal Oracle... never mind.
yeah, i was familiar with the concept of what stacks and what doesn't. I got it for spells and bonuses of the same name and such. I guess I just don't see Impact and Lead Blades that way. Not saying you guys are wrong, just seems weird to me.
For example, the Speed effect has specific text indicating that it doesn't stack with Haste. I had always been under the impression that if not for this text, the effects would stack. According to you, this text is unnecessary.
Is it any better if I say I used "Bulls Strength" to create the Impact item instead of Lead Blades?
|
|
| 45 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You make a good point awp832, that metal oracle may just see the light of day. It does list multiple ways of increasing the base damage. For the purpose of FAQing, I'll put
Do effects that increase the base damage of a weapon, such as the Impact Special Weapon Quality, stack with other effects that increase the base damage of a weapon, such as Lead Blades?
Please hit FAQ people who have posted here or people reading this post who don't plan on posting anything, or do plan on posting something.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Both spells deal with the weapon. Lead Blades increases the damage of the weapon by one size category larger than they actually are, so a medium weapon does damage as if it was one step larger. It doesn't make the weapon a large weapon. Impact does the same thing. It increases the damage of the weapon as if it were one size larger, so the medium weapon does large damage. Both of them are affecting the base weapon, not what the weapon may be doing.
Actually there is precedence for these two effects not stacking with one another written in the enlarge person spell where it states: Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Though I suppose you could argue that this only applies to creatures because it's the enlarge person spell.
Both of them are affecting the base weapon, not what the weapon may be doing.
Good point, neither are actually changing the size of the weapon. Y'all can ignore my earlier post :)
Spellblade: I see what you're saying, I can still read it both ways though, so not sure.
Blitterbug: So, would Enlarge Person stack with Lead Blades then?
So, would Enlarge Person stack with Lead Blades then?
Yes, Enlarge Person and Lead Blades stack.
Do effects that increase the base damage of a weapon, such as the Impact Special Weapon Quality, stack with other effects that increase the base damage of a weapon, such as Lead Blades?
You could probably add things like the Improved Natural Attack feat and the Strong Jaw spell into that as well.
Both spells deal with the weapon. Lead Blades increases the damage of the weapon by one size category larger than they actually are, so a medium weapon does damage as if it was one step larger. It doesn't make the weapon a large weapon. Impact does the same thing. It increases the damage of the weapon as if it were one size larger, so the medium weapon does large damage. Both of them are affecting the base weapon, not what the weapon may be doing.
My only complaint about that interpretation would be that Lead Blades doesn't actually target the weapon. It's a buff cast on yourself that makes all your weapons swing harder.
EDIT: Double post
This is one of the most frequently asked questions in the rules forum
Then it should be in the FAQ shouldn't it.
hm... really? Why does that matter? in other words: where does it say that a weapon ability's prereq doesnt stack with the weapon ability?
It's not that it's a "prerequisite" per se. It's that the Impact weapon ability is a specialized implementation of the Lead Blades spell. So you functionally end up with two castings of the same spell.
So, for example, the Belt of Thunderous Charging increases your Strength by 2 and makes your weapons deal damage as if they are one size category larger when you charge. The spells used to make the belt are Bull's Strength and Lead Blades, so the enhancements from this belt won't stack with either those spells.
The spell requirement for a magic item is actually the best indication of whether or not two magic items will stack. Two items that have the same underlying spell requirement will almost never stack unless there's some specific wording in the item that says it does. For example, the pink rhomboid ioun stone uses Bear's Endurance to increase your Constitution by 2 for 8000 gp. The onyx rhomboid ioun stone also uses Bear's Endurance to increase Constitution by 2, but it also says "The bonuses from multiple onyx rhomboid stones stack, up to a total of +6 Constitution"--which is why the onyx rhomboid costs 24,000 gp.
No, it means people need to search before they post. This question has been answered ad nauseum.This is one of the most frequently asked questions in the rules forumThen it should be in the FAQ shouldn't it.
Actually it means that a whole bunch of people are having the same question at different times and have different levels of threadfu. Not sure how starting a new thread hurt anyone.
No
Yes. You said it's one of the most Frequently Asked Questions. That's LITERALLY what the F, A and Q in FAQ stands for. So why doesn't it belong there?
it means people need to search before they post.
Which does nothing, because I did.
You get a bunch of threads(of which only one was actually Lead Blades+Impact related) with users giving their interpretations which conflict with each other, with no one of any authority giving a definitive answer.
|
...with no one of any authority giving a definitive answer...
This is what bugs me the most about people asking the same question over and over and over again. Unless Sean K Reynolds himself addresses you, no other answer will suffice. Even if 90% of the responses you get are reasonable and in agreement, to hell with them.
Never hurts to ask. If someone is tired of this question (it really does get asked a lot), then just ignore the thread. I review them to see if there is some new look at the rules or logic that I have missed.
Either way, the message boards are for everyone to ask whatever questions they want and they can do so even if the topic has been covered before.
The general consensus is that Lead Blades and Impact weapons will not stack, but until there is an official answer, that is just the majority viewpoint per our understanding of the rules.
As far as I know, both lead blades and impact cause the weapon to be treated as one size larger than it actually is for the purpose of damage. Neither effect changes the actual size of the weapon.
As a result, casting lead blades on an impact weapon would have no effect, since it simply duplicates an ability the item already has.
For example, I have a medium-sized heavy mace which normally does 1d8 damage. I have it upgraded to an Impact mace, so now it does damage as if it were a large mace (2d6) but it still is a medium mace. Now I cast lead blades. Lead blades causes it to do damage as if it is one size larger than it actually is. It is still medium size, so lead blades causes it to do damage as if large. Since it already does that much damage lead blades does not actually improve anything.
Peet
|
|
This is one of the most frequently asked questions in the rules forum, and it has been answered more times than I can remember. Do people seriously not know there is a "search" function?
No, it means people need to search before they post. This question has been answered ad nauseum.
Maybe you should provide a link to a thread or post where this has been discussed?
This is what bugs me the most about people asking the same question over and over and over again. Unless Sean K Reynolds himself addresses you, no other answer will suffice. Even if 90% of the responses you get are reasonable and in agreement, to hell with them.
Or maybe some one is looking for an official ruling and not other people's interpretations of the ruling, which if it had been post and you know about maybe you'd be a kind person and provide the link.
Anyway, to contribute, I'd say no, they don't stack, Peet's explanation is fine, however both of these spells will stack with enlarge person since the size category for the weapon is actually changing, rather than being treated as a size category larger
Even if 90% of the responses you get are reasonable and in agreement, to hell with them.
Except it's not even close to that.
This is the only other thread that came up when I searched for the exact question I wanted to know. Of which there were only 6 responses, 3 of which didn't even know what Impact was because it was right after Ultimate Equipment was released.
Or maybe some one is looking for an official ruling and not other people's interpretations of the ruling
That would be ideal, yes. But isn't necessarily a requirement.
1, 2, 3.
The first and third links are asking different questions, so they wouldn't necessarily show up in a search.
|
|
This is what bugs me the most about people asking the same question over and over and over again. Unless Sean K Reynolds himself addresses you, no other answer will suffice. Even if 90% of the responses you get are reasonable and in agreement, to hell with them.
Looking at some of the other posts about this question, it seems less like 90% of everyone agrees with YOUR view, and more like 190% of YOU agrees with YOUR view. Maybe the OP was looking for an official ruling to make a PFS character, that has no ruling about Impact or lead blades. Ruling that lead blades and impact don't stack in homebrew games is fine, ruling it in Society isn't.
The arguement that lead blades and impact both would treat a medium weapon as a large weapon makes sense, but playing devils advocate, if the weapon is treated as being large from impact, so the now large sized weapon would be treated as huge.
I searched "Lead Blades" and got those results. I find that the less words you use the less likely the Paizo search engine is to find something totally irrelevant. (Personally, I still think the search engine is a pain to deal with even if you are willing to do a little digging)
EDIT: No. Read the ability, ArmouredMonk13. They both use the wording "deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are". The weapon does not increase in size. The weapon damage is treated as one size category larger. Since they both calculate damage increases off the base size they do not stack.
No. Read the ability, ArmouredMonk13. They both use the wording "deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are". The weapon does not increase in size.
The description for Impact DOESN'T contain the "than they actually are" terminology.
It is a distinction, though maybe not one that's relevant.
Woops my bad, even so Lead Blades still has it which means they can't stack because that changes the weapon to base size category +1.
If neither of them had it you might have an argument for it, I would have to check the wording on stacking magical effects.
That'd be hard to do, though. You'd have to cast Lead Blades and then enchant the weapon to have the Impact quality and have the CL on Lead Blades be high enough to last long enough through the crafting process to be usable afterwards. It'd also only work once per weapon.
Lead Blades only applies to weapons you're carrying at the time of the casting.
EDIT: Nevermind, you guys JUST said the same things I was going to say. Impact might stack if it came second, but can't since it's a weapon ability, yadayadayada.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK here's the actual text of the Impact Weapon Property and the Lead Blades Spell for comparison.
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons that are not light weapons. An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger. In addition...(snip)
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are.
I put the relevant bits in bold.
The wording is not exactly the same, but honestly I don't think the difference is significant. Both descriptions say "as if one size category larger." Lead blades uses the words "than they actually are" and impact does not, but I don't think this matters, since in the case of impact, the sentence ends. If you have to ask "larger than what?" well, obviously the answer is "larger than itself."
So I don't think it will matter what order the abilities are gained. They both do exactly the same thing and won't stack.
As has been pointed out though, if you wanted +2 size categories you could cast any size-increasing spell like enlarge person and then the weapon actually is one size larger, so the effect would stack. If you can get form of the giant II then you go up to huge size.
Peet
honestly I don't think the difference is significant.
Neither do I. I think they intended them to be the same, but made the mistake of wording it inconsistently.
It would certainly be nice if they actually gave these buffs a name like "Weight Bonus to Weapon Size Damage" so it would be obvious that they were all the same type of Bonus.
As to how to get them to stack, I forgot to add a vital part to what I was thinking earlier. This is the way I see that it could work.
Lead Blades is cast on Hero wielding impact weapon (weapon does not increase at the moment because impact is already in effect).
Hero drops impact weapon. Lead blades is still in effect. Hero picks up the Impact Weapon. Impact goes on top of Lead Blades. Weapon damage increases to base size +2.
That wouldn't work simply because neither Impact nor Lead Blades goes away just because you let go of the weapon.
Impact doesn't disappear and reappear when you drop and pick up the weapon, so it's not going to suddenly rebuff when you pick it up after already casting Lead Blades.
Official Rules Response
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9qx4
Weapon Special Ability, Impact: Does this stack with the lead blades spell?
No. The weapon special ability and the spell are similar effects; note that impact lists lead blades as a construction requirement.