Grenadier question


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

So i admit to this being a RAW question vs a logical question. But from what i can tell per the rules this is possible.

So take the Grenadier 2nd level Power. Which to this point i have considered rather useless.

Alchemical Weapon (Su)

At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.

The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.

This ability replaces poison resistance.

So ok seems nice on the surface, but why would i just not throw the alchemist fire since range beyond 20 is all but non existent in PFS (thus the ever increasing number of gun slingers).
So i have never used this ability in game. not once. Its a very expense arrow and turns a perfectly good range touch attack into a 3.3 gp arrow with a high chance to miss. Not worth it.

Today i started to wonder how far this rule goes.
Could i take the properties of a Sky Rocket and add it to an arrow? I can see some situation where that might be useful.
What about the ridiculously flexible ammo a gunslinger can use, could that suddenly be used with arrows per this ability?
Please let me know, trying to find an in game use for this ability and 5 levels in not seeing the point, using the item as is has always been the better choice. if it enables other capabilities as questioned above i will need to re-examine that.


You will find some ranges of 100 or so feet in pfs. Anything past this medium range is pretty rare from what I've seen.

Tanglewood bags also could be useful with that class feature.


I just looked through the available alchemical items. There is nothing of worth for this ability. I'm sorry. Just ignore it and move on.


Well, I believe the alchemist would still be dealing Int modifier to damage with splash weapons (even if they don't splash) so that's a little dmg increase. Since they don't splash you don't have to worry about hitting allies. Not their best ability probably but certainly could be helpful if you've run out of bombs.


You can use it on a melee weapon.

Sometimes, people are more than 20' away, and if you do have the action to spare, it's a nice bit of oomph. 3.3 gp is nothing.

It combines nicely with Explosive Missile.


Shane LeRose wrote:
I just looked through the available alchemical items. There is nothing of worth for this ability. I'm sorry. Just ignore it and move on.

Where did you see that list? I'm making a grenadier and I would like to know what's available.


I've considered using the ability to combine alchemical effects with nets, haven't tested it out yet though.


I have a gunslinger/grenadier... I still get the touch attack.


Hmm... does this ability work with improvised weapons... and if so, can we combine an acid flask with a gnome companion wielded as an improvised cudgel?


Tanglefoot Bags and Sneezing Powder could probably be pretty good with this.

Also, Smog or Pepper pellets if you need extra range on 'em. I don't think 40 GP is too bad for an emergency Glitterdust.

Liberty's Edge

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
I have a gunslinger/grenadier... I still get the touch attack.

yeah gunslingers are making bow users obsolete, i am learning that lesson every time i play an event. Some dont seem to believe that but its so true. Seems to be the way they want it.

Liberty's Edge

so the consensus seems to be that this power is pointless. I still did not get an answer as to whether or not it could be used with say a skyrocket. That might make it worth it.


neferphras wrote:
so the consensus seems to be that this power is pointless. I still did not get an answer as to whether or not it could be used with say a skyrocket. That might make it worth it.

I use it all the time.. It's very helpful last game we were being hammered by trolls I alternated between tanglefoot (entangled no save) alchemists fire and acid on my pistol bullets.

You get to debuff and damage at the same time also it lasts a minute so at the beging of combat you can set up some ammo to use when the opportunity arises.

Bows over distance an extra d6 damage is always handy.


IMO, it's pretty strong, especially if you have say, proficiency with nets.

With a net, that's a ranged touch attack (at -4 if non-proficient), which both entangles (the net), and with an added flask of Ghast Retch (UE P107), sickens (nauseates if they fail the save!)...

That's a strong set of debuffs...No save, No SR...


Actually, now I'm wondering...

What if you applied it to a weapon with the scatter quality? One piece of ammunition in that instance technically hits every creature within its cone...

[edit]

[ad300 wrote:
With a net, that's a ranged touch attack (at -4 if non-proficient), which both entangles (the net), and with an added flask of Ghast Retch (UE P107), sickens (nauseates if they fail the save!)...

Net plus alchemical glue, followed up by a bladder containing several doses of glue accelerant?


I always thought what made it good was the swift action part at level 6. You get the benefit of an alchemical item plus a weapon attack as part of the same standard action. Rather than two rounds, you can spend one to do the same thing, and potentially at longer range.

The Exchange

My Alchemist uses it all he time too. Combine 2 liquid alchemical items with hybridization funnel, use Explosive Missile discovery, and tangle shot arrows for a 50' touch attack range increment and its a good single shot boom.

Liberty's Edge

The Todd wrote:
My Alchemist uses it all he time too. Combine 2 liquid alchemical items with hybridization funnel, use Explosive Missile discovery, and tangle shot arrows for a 50' touch attack range increment and its a good single shot boom.

the Missile discovery sadly does not make your arrow range touch. I wish it did, but it doesn't.

Also tangleshot arrows are, stupidly in my view, not PFS legal. But thats a different thread.

Shadow Lodge

The Todd wrote:
My Alchemist uses it all he time too. Combine 2 liquid alchemical items with hybridization funnel, use Explosive Missile discovery, and tangle shot arrows for a 50' touch attack range increment and its a good single shot boom.

Replace a the bow with a +1 distance pistol, and the tangle shot arrows with the Tanglefoot Bomb discovery, and you've got my alchemist 4/gunslinger 1/alchemist X in a nutshell. :P

Silver Crusade

IQuarent wrote:
Shane LeRose wrote:
I just looked through the available alchemical items. There is nothing of worth for this ability. I'm sorry. Just ignore it and move on.
Where did you see that list? I'm making a grenadier and I would like to know what's available.

Post 8 of my Alchemist Guide has a pretty solid list of everything available, although I can't vouch for which are PFS legal since I don't play that.

There's quite a few really great things to combine to your weapon, Ghast Retch Flask and Tanglefoot bags being two. It's honestly a great ability that makes you a solid ranged debuffer.

neferphras wrote:

the Missile discovery sadly does not make your arrow range touch. I wish it did, but it doesn't.

Also tangleshot arrows are, stupidly in my view, not PFS legal. But thats a different thread.

The thing that's making the tangleshot arrows a touch attack are the arrows themselves, which specifically are called out as touch attacks.


Xaratherus wrote:

Actually, now I'm wondering...

What if you applied it to a weapon with the scatter quality? One piece of ammunition in that instance technically hits every creature within its cone...

Given how the ability is worded, I would just take it literally: The next creature struck takes the effect; the effect does not affect other creatures.

The Exchange

@ neferas: Hadn't checked on the availability of the tangleshot arrows for PFS. Also found the dye arrows that are touch attack and not PFS legal. Sadness I tell you. Sadness

Another use for alchemical weapon is to give the away. It lasts for a minute and doesn't say who has to fire it. Your Ranger Archer might like having a hybridized acid/alchemists fire that adds you INT damage on it.

A seperate possibility is to have true strike as one of the extracts in your sipping jacket. Although this particular extract being used might need GM permission as its duration is special and not rds or instant.

Liberty's Edge

The Todd wrote:

@ neferas: Hadn't checked on the availability of the tangleshot arrows for PFS. Also found the dye arrows that are touch attack and not PFS legal. Sadness I tell you. Sadness

Another use for alchemical weapon is to give the away. It lasts for a minute and doesn't say who has to fire it. Your Ranger Archer might like having a hybridized acid/alchemists fire that adds you INT damage on it.

A seperate possibility is to have true strike as one of the extracts in your sipping jacket. Although this particular extract being used might need GM permission as its duration is special and not rds or instant.

yeah none of the actually interesting arrows are pfS legal. As i said a few times as a separate thread, it is clear that the campaign heads WANT bow use to go the way of the dinosaur, and they are getting their wish. I see 10 gunslingers to every 1 archer played. Asking around 10 to 1 seems to be high. Several people I asked have never seen an archer type played, all gunslingers. Again this seems to be what they want to have happen, makes me sad. Loved the classic D&D archer.

Liberty's Edge

BTW i posted this as a rules question that was my intent.

Can Skyrocket be used with this ability?
could an archer use this ability to steal say an dragon breath ammo charge and apply it to a bow??

Again per RAW i dont see why not, but thought i would ask.

The Exchange

Could you post the link to sky rocket. All I could find was the sky rocket cross bow and wasn't sure that is what the subject was.

Liberty's Edge

The Todd wrote:
Could you post the link to sky rocket. All I could find was the sky rocket cross bow and wasn't sure that is what the subject was.

all academical weapons

Alchemical Weapon (Su)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/alchemical-weapons

Skyrocket

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/alchemical-weapons#TOC-Sk yrocket-Firework

its listed right before sneezing power on the site and sneezing power is mentioned in the power so i am thinking yes.


Some dms are very generous and let throw anything bonuses apply to non-thrown alchemicalweapons that dont splash. Just like some dms let these bonuses stack with the hybridization funnel.

I would expect that most dms allow neither. As a result I would never try this in pfs.

Liberty's Edge

ok no response and its been a few days now. Is this the kind of question that needs to wait for Gencon to be over. Do we need Michael?


I would say no.

Alchemical Weapon wrote:
a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder,
Skyrocket Firework wrote:
this foot-long wooden tube

The Skyrocket firework is not a liquid or powder. It's the whole setup: rocket body, propulsion, explosive.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:

I would say no.

Alchemical Weapon wrote:
a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder,
Skyrocket Firework wrote:
this foot-long wooden tube
The Skyrocket firework is not a liquid or powder. It's the whole setup: rocket body, propulsion, explosive.

its the powder in the tube that give the bang, so to speak. So not sure this holds water. It would be like saying you cant use alchemist fire because its in the flask. Its a SU ability that allows you to take the properties of a substance and add it to another object.

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