Trolforb Stealthaxe, The Dwarven Rogue that doesn't suck.

[ArmouredMonk13]

OK, so while reading the threads, I noticed that a lot of people don't seem to think that rogues, fighters, or monks are very good classes. I admitted that they were rather sub-par and thought about possible builds to make them better. Someone beat me to the Fighter, but the Rogue I drew up earlier today and wanted to hear some opinions.

Trolforb Stealthaxe:

Fighter1/Roguex

Stats:
STR:16
DEX:12
CON:18
INT:10
WIS:14
CHA:5

HP:26

Saves:
Fort=+6
Ref=+3
Will=+2

Attacks
Battleaxe: +3 (1d8+1d6 sneak attack+5/x3 crit) average DPR~14
Warhammer: +3 (1d8+1d6 sneak attack+5/x3 crit) average DPR~14
Heavy Pick: +3 (1d6+1d6 sneak attack+5/x4 crit) average DPR~13
CMB+4

Defense:
AC20 (+1 Dex, +2 shield, +6 armor, +1 natural armor)
Hardy (+2 on saves vs. spells, spell-like abilities, and poison)
Defensive Training (+4 dodge bonus vs. monsters with giant subtype)
CMD15 (19 vs. trip or bull rush)

Feats:
Power Attack (fighter bonus feat)
Ironhide

Skills:
+2 acrobatics
+3 climb
+3 swim
+7 perception
+7 proffesion Stonemason
+7 proffesion Sailor
+1 disable device
+1 stealth

Initiative:+3

Traits/Racial Abilities:
Reactionary [trait(+2 intiative)]
Armor Expert [trait(-1 to Armor Check Penalty)]
Hardy
Stonecunning (+2 vs. unusual stone)
Stability
Hatred (+1 attack vs. orcs and goblinoids)
Greed (+2 appraise with precious gems)
Weapon Familiarity

Class features:
Bonus Feat
Trapfinding
Sneak Attack

Power Attack is already worked into stats

I realize that by wearing armor I give up some rogue abilities, and that this "technically" is a fighter rogue and not a rogue, but I thought this build might interest some of those people who say that rogues suck in general. This I made to be PFS legal, though it will have to wait untill I get enough GM credits to make it 2nd level to start playing it, so feel free to try it if anyone feels like testing it, and please let me know via this thread how it works. The con is so high because rogues need HP. Open to suggestions about archetypes/alternate racial traits/stat changes (to some extent). The feat tree is pretty much wide open as he wears a shield and has low dex (so no TWFing), and uses hammers, axes and picks (for DR overcoming). Any thoughts?

[Kiinyan]

I don't think it works as well as a normal rogue because you're not addressing the rogue's weaknesses. They are: to-hit, defenses, and damage (really in just gonna mix it all into attacks).

Defenses: Low armor, crappy saves, few ways to boost. Saves are somewhat done well addressing that with dwarf, a decent wisdom, and the fighter dip, but you will still be the slave of the first enchanter you meet. You gave him armor, but by negating a large amount of rogue abilities, he's no more than a 3/4 BaB fighter with very inconsistent damage.

Offense: there's a lot here that I don't see addressed (really, I see the opposite). A rogue's damage comes from his/her sneak attack. Static bonuses, like power attack, are a lot weaker for them, especially as it penalizes to hit. Prioritize hitting before you prioritize damage. Damage is where another problems lies. How often can you make an enemy sneak attackable? It's tough for any enemies to survive full attacks Fron your main melee long enough to get multiple SAs and move into position, and then you have to waste a turn or two getting into position. To maximize sneak attack potential you need more attacks: AKA TWF. However, TWF gets a penalty to hit that a 3/4 BaB class that doesn't get bonuses to hit will suck even more. Also, how are you calculating DPR? That to-hit is terrible, and you're always calculating sneak attack, which is not an often case.

[blackbloodtroll]

Why not Ranger?

Actually, the Dwarf can be a very sneaky Inquisitor as well.

Even in Full-plate, with a low dex.

[Rudolf Kraus]

You don't need power attack, and you certainly don't need it at first level.

+1 for trapper or urban ranger instead.

[blackbloodtroll]

Freebooter/Trapper Ranger is a good choice.

Heretic Inquisitor Dwarf of Irori can have x2 wisdom to Stealth, with the Wisdom in the Flesh trait.

Nab some Creeping Fullplate, and be the sneakiest tank out there.

[TGMaxMaxer]

If you want a Rogue that doesn't suck, and you want it on a Dwarf chasis, take advantage of the Dwarf only feats for the cleave line (normally a sub par option, on a rogue only using your highest BAB attack is a good thing)

Str 16 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 5.

Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, Cleave and Great Cleave, with Surprise Follow Thru/Imp Surprise Follow Thru, and a Dwarven Double Axe (+2 on cleave attacks) or a reach weapon. Now you can go in, attack anyone in reach, and cleave to non-adjacent targets anywhere in reach and apply sneak attack to all the secondary targets. Toss in Cleaving Finish/Imp Cleaving Finish, and you get to start the fun all over again

I truly like it combined with Fast Getaway (rogue talent). As a standard action, you attack. If it hits, you cleave, and apply sneak damage. Now you get a withdraw (as a move action, only a single move distance).

I set it up with a Phalanx Fighter 4/Thug Rogue X. Yes, still a fighter rogue, but a mad-debuffer and crowd control specialist.

Can have Power attack, cleave, goblin cleaver, orc hewer, surprise follow thru at 4th level Dwarf Fighter.

Then, if you go rogue from there, at 11th level you have: Great cleave, Imp surprise follow thru, cleaving finish, and Combat Reflexes. You have 3 rogue talents, Fast Getaway, Befuddling strike, and Offensive Defense. You have 3d6 sneak applied to every cleave target you hit(giving up 1d6 for the sickened condition), and gain 4AC, plus give them a -4 to hit you. You have a reach weapon and a shield, making up for your Light Armor, (to keep evasion and uncanny dodge.)

[GeneticDrift]

Str rogue + crane style + ninja trick for improved invisibility = awesome

Add UMD for spring loaded wristnsheaths of your favorite multiple ranged attack spell for more surprise fun (fiery shuricans, or something). Also carry shield and mage armor and a few scrolls of utility.

[blackbloodtroll]

Still, you can be a better Rogue, by not being a Rogue.