I wanted to get you guy's opinion on some rules that I'm afriad are being misinterperated at my table.
First this...
My interperatation is that this increases the base speed. Meaning when running, charging, or withdrawing, the character is treated as having a speed of 40. So when he withdraws or charges he can move 80 ft, and when running he can move at 160.
Next issue...
The problem is that combined with
You can charge and make an attack with your paws.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Dex 15, Nimble Striker, base attack bonus +10, catfolk, cat's claws racial trait or Aspect of the Beast (claws of the beast manifestation).
Benefit: When you make a charge, you can make a full attack with your claws.
Normal: Charging is a special full-round action that limits you to a single attack.
Basically one of my players had a concept for playing a Catfolk rogue who's an assassin who basically hunts his targets like a hunting cat would. To his credit it has taken 14 levels for this build to pan out and for the first few levels it was a pretty bumpy road.
Between
Your feline traits are more defined and prominent than those of other members of your race.
Prerequisite: Catfolk.
Benefit: You can take the Aspect of the Beast feat even if you do not meet the normal prerequisites. Furthermore, your catlike nature manifests in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you take this feat, and cannot change it later.
Sharp Claws (Ex): If you do not have the cat's claws racial trait or the claws of the beast manifestation from the Aspect of the Beast feat , you gain the cat's claws racial trait. If you have either the cat's claws racial trait or the claws of the beast manifestation, your claw damage increases to 1d6.
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.
He finally hit 14 level a couple of nights ago and I didn't realize just how nasty this buil was until at the end of the session the catfolk rogue (Tash) and a Aldori swordlord 7/duelist 7 (Sianne) had a little fight. Basically Tash had just hit 14 and finnished his build but it was late and the session had ended. He wanted to try out the build he'd spent almost a month putting together so his buddy Sianne agreed to an Ooc duel. It was a boodbath. Having previously purchased Catfolk Exemplar a second time he was able to increase his running speed
I figure something has to be wrong if Tash can pretty much murder a fighter/duelist (she's specialized in one on one fights against living opponents) of his same CR, and in a situation where she actually had an opportunity to defend herself. So is this OP? Or was it just a case of Paper vs. Scissors?
We haven't met up since so I haven't had a chance to if this build is the encounter killer that I suspect it might be. It's just that that Scout's Charge give him the opportunity to deal out crazy damage if he hits with both attacks. It basically comes down to whether or not Scout's Charge and Claw Pounce can allow him to do 2 sneak attacks on a charge. I would hate to nerf it seeing how he spent so much patient work on this build, but Im afraid it could be a gamebreaker.
Any thoughts?
Scout charge allow to deliver the sneak attack but do not deny the targer dex bonus. the flat-fotted wording is to allow certain abilityes that do not trigger with only flanking.
Otherwise the situation seems legal to me.
Okay! That would have made a huge differance seeing how half of the Aldori swordlord/Duelist's AC goes away when she's denied her Dex bonus.
By the way if the catfolk is using natural weapon he do not gain any iteratives.
By the way what are iteratives?
However, it doesn't work in difficult terrain, (can't charge) in close quarters with allies in the way (can't charge).
This is true, and up to this point about 1 in 3 of my encounters contain difficult terrain althoug not always the entire map.
If I understand you correctly, he hit her from stealth with a partial charge (which would give 2 full sneak attacks from claw pounce, but only allow you to move single speed in a surprise round charge), then took the AoO to run away, charged back in for another double claw sneak?
No, actaully he hit her w/ 1 attack in the suprise round, then made inititiatve landed two in the first round. Round two he sprinted back, she Aoo'd then ran after him but only got half way (120 feet), round three he charged with Claw Pounce and annihalated her w/ two sneak attacks (however we were under the misconception that she was denied her Dex and Int bonuses to AC, both of thse attacks actaully might have missed.)
Lets see how he compares against other 14th level characters.
A Sorcerer at the same level would do 4d6+12 x 3 as a touch attack (minimum 48 max 108), a beast totem barbarian would get around d6+20 x 4 (min 84 max 104), greatsword Barbarian 2d6+30 x3 (min 93 max 126), an archer would get 2d6+15 x5 (min 85 max 135). All 4 of these would have much higher chance to hit, (from either touch AC or much better BAB).
It's a concept build, that is actually effective in certain situations. It's good, but not really powerful.
Yeah I guess you're right. It just seemed pretty nasty because he get's two attacks at his full attack bonus, which I believe is about 22 when charging and thanks to a combination of
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1, catfolk, sprinter racial trait.
Benefit: You do not take a –2 penalty to AC when you use the Cleave feat, Lunge feat, or when you charge.
But yeah, I guess it isn't that bad. I was just a little alarming watching it in action the first time.
Do not forget that the catfolk is using natural weapon he do not gain any iteratives, so two claw attacks and that is all.Okay! That would have made a huge differance seeing how half of the Aldori swordlord/Duelist's AC goes away when she's denied her Dex bonus.Scout charge allow to deliver the sneak attack but do not deny the targer dex bonus. the flat-fotted wording is to allow certain abilityes that do not trigger with only flanking.
Otherwise the situation seems legal to me.
Yeah but it's actually a great tradeoff for a rogue once I looked into it. The most attacks a rogue will ever get is 3 at a progressive -5 penalty. With the natural weapon he only get's two, but at his full bonus for both! Plus if he ever goes the multi-attack route he can get his three weapon attacks (at the proper level) and still get one claw attack... and he could all three on a charge covering 120 feet!
But it's ggod to know about the Dex bonus thing, thank you.
Just a note: With Dragon Style (2 more feats) he can charge in difficult terrain and through allies. So he still isnt as buffed out (featwise) as he could be.
Regarding charge+pounce in the surprise round the Rogue can make two attacks while pouncing even in a surprise round. This was recently the subject of a FAQ.
Regarding Scout's Charge, I think it does remove the dex bonus. "as if the target were flat-footed" seems to me that for that attack all rules for flat-footed apply. However, I can see this going either way. Perhaps it should be the subject of a FAQ.
- Gauss
Just be glad this catfolk didn't do this build with Scout Ninja instead of Scout Rogue. With Greater Invisibility things get even deadlier.
Like I said, I can see it going either way. The way I stated my opinion was that it was not a certainty.
My rationale regarding it only applied to the damage roll is that leaves a huge question as to what does and does not apply. It is contrary to how Flat-footed works. Either you do, or do not count as flat-footed. There are no half measures. So, this could be an exception, or it could be bad wording. Hence my thinking it could be FAQ worthy.
Note: this debate came up in my own gaming group months ago. We saw that it could go either way.
- Gauss
Regarding Scout's Charge, I think it does remove the dex bonus. "as if the target were flat-footed" seems to me that for that attack all rules for flat-footed apply.The full clause is, "[...] her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed."
So the condition is only applied to the damage roll, not the attack roll. I think it would probably have more general language if the intent was to deny the dex bonus to AC, or specifically state that.
I think you're right Highbad, I think "as if" is key. It would porbably read something like "target is flatfooted against this attack" if the intention was for the target to actaully lose her dex bonus.
Honestly I'm surprised the Catfolk didn't have Rending Claws factored into his build for even more bonus damage dice. It still works with the Catfolk Scout Pounce mechanic perfectly.
(I have a Catfolk Ninja with this exact build. It takes 16 levels to achieve it's full capacity, but when it does, it's frightening.)