Synthesis, Toughness in depth discussion.

[DMDark]

So in my research of the feat toughness for synthesis it came quick to realise a lot of people say the Eidolon doesn't get it. But why?

I'm pretty sure any other feat is transferred. like weapon finesse. Or am I wrong and no feats are transferred?

I think the main reason why people say no is because of the double 3 HP bonus. an extra 18 hit points at level 3 is pretty insane.

Would it be overruled so the Eidolon only gets 1 extra? But then that gets complicated in the lower levels.

A standard Summoner can get toughness and his Eidolon can get it as well. Giving a better bonus to HP than the synthesis.

The standard Summoner also has a much better action economy, buffing and attacking in the same round! The synthesist's only major bonus is the HP. So why is it so quick to nerf and deny improving their strongest feature. I mean the Eidolon can ONLY be healed by the Summoner rejuvenate spells anyway!

[A Ninja]

The summoner can take the feat no problems.

Synthesized Eidolon does not get feats, therefore can't take it.

[DMDark]

so any feats the Summoner takes the Eidolon receives zero benefit?

[chaoseffect]

I'm a little confused... "double 3 HP bonus. an extra 18 hit points at level 3 is pretty insane." Toughness gives you one extra HP per level (essentially). If it applies to both you and your Eidolon suit then that's 6 extra HP at level 3, not 18.

As for whether or not it applies to the Eidolon itself, I don't know. I could see it argued either way to be honest.

[DMDark]

Toughness is 3 extra hitpoints for the first 3 HD. It is then reduced to 1 extra hitpoint for each HD after the 3rd. The

[chaoseffect]

I understand that it gives +3 HP and the 1 more for every HD after, so at level 3 it would be 3 for you and 3 for the eidolon (if it applied to both). I'm asking how you're getting 18 extra HP from it.

[DMDark]

 You gain +3 hit points. For every Hit Die you possess beyond 3, you gain an additional +1 hit point. If you have more than 3 Hit Dice, you gain +1 hit points whenever you gain a Hit Die (such as when you gain a level).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/toughness---final

[chaoseffect]

I understand completely how Toughness works. You said:

"I think the main reason why people say no is because of the double 3 HP bonus. an extra 18 hit points at level 3 is pretty insane."

At level 3 you have 3 HD, so Toughness is giving you an extra 3 HP.

At level 3 your Eidolon has 3 HD, so toughness it giving it an extra 3 HP.

I feel like you're telling me 3 + 3 = 18. That is why I am confused and asking what how you are getting that number.

[DMDark]

you gain +3 hit points for every hit dice you possess. beyond the third you gain +1.
3 HD means +3 for each one then a +1 for each HD after. a static +1 is dnd3.5 not pathfinder.

[chaoseffect]

That's not what Toughness does. It says you get +3 HP. And then +1 for every HD beyond 3. So essentially is gives you 1 extra HP per level.

Toughness in 3.5 was +3 HP, period.

[DMDark]

Then I misunderstood the description of toughness. But my original maths from my understanding was correct :-P

[Brandon Hodge]

DMDark wrote:

you gain +3 hit points for every hit dice you possess. beyond the third you gain +1.

3 HD means +3 for each one then a +1 for each HD after. a static +1 is dnd3.5 not pathfinder.

You are reading Toughness incorrectly. Here's a breakdown by sentence:

PRD says: wrote:

Toughness

You have enhanced physical stamina.

Benefit: You gain +3 hit points. For every Hit Die you possess beyond 3, you gain an additional +1 hit point. If you have more than 3 Hit Dice, you gain +1 hit points whenever you gain a Hit Die (such as when you gain a level).

1. Your character qualifies for a new feat at X level.

2. First Sentence: "You gain +3 hit points."

3. Add 3 hit points to your character.

4. Second Sentence: "For every Hit Die you possess beyond 3, you gain an additional +1 hit point."

5. Does your character possess more than 3 Hit Die? If so, add an additional hit point for each Hit Dice your character has over 3.

6. Third Sentence: "If you have more than 3 Hit Dice, you gain +1 hit points whenever you gain a Hit Die (such as when you gain a level)"

7. From now one, when your character gains a Hit Dice, such as when you gain a level, you add an additional hit point to your hit point total.

Examples:

You are 1st level. You take the Toughness feat. Add 3 hit points to your character sheet. When you reach 2nd level, do nothing. As per the second sentence, you do not yet possess more than 3 Hit Dice, and gain no additional hit points.

You are now 2nd level and leveling up to 3rd. Again, do nothing. Again, you do not yet possess more than 3 Hit Dice, and gain no additional hit points as per the feat.

You are now 3rd level and leveling up to 4th. You have now gained a Hit Die and now possess Hit Dice beyond 3. Add 1 hit point to your hit point total.

Repeat for each additional level you attain.

EDIT: Of course you get your misreading before I can publish a breakdown for you. Ah, well--not doing anything better at 4:30 in the morning. =-)

[DMDark]

I appreciate the breakdown a lot! You've certainly made it more clear to how it works. Now if I can just find out if the Eidolon shares my feats like it shares my skill points!

[CWheezy]

The eidolon for a synthesis is just a suit that the summoner uses.

You use the natural weapons as if they were your own, etc.

It basically is not separate being. You are counted as one thing

[A Ninja]

Wait, just caught on to what you were trying to say.

If the summoner takes toughness, does he get extra temp hp from the hit dice of the eidolon when fused with his eidolon.

Answer: No

The eidolon is not a seperate being at all it is ,the closest equivalent, being rage. Just a series of character bonuses that are able to be turned on and off.

[Leisner]

An Eidolon on a Synthesist is not extra HDs, but temporary HPs. Toughness grants HPs, not temporary HPs.

Another way of looking at it, is that the Eidolon grants you stuff, you don't grant it stuff.

[Artanthos]

DMDark wrote:

I appreciate the breakdown a lot! You've certainly made it more clear to how it works. Now if I can just find out if the Eidolon shares my feats like it shares my skill points!

You can use your feats while fused. Your eidolon has no feats of its own.

In the case of Toughness, The eidolon has no hit points. It has temporary hit points.

The Character gains the benefits of toughness, fused or not, but does not double dip.

[DMDark]

That explains my confusion! Thank you for your help!