Only two days left...oh, f*+! yes.
I have absolutely no idea what race/class combination I want to start with; I really don't think I've looked forward to a game this much since Dragon Age: Origins.
So who else is coming to Seattle 2054 with me and how do you plan on starting off?
I did not care for what I read. Catalyst did not being much of the spirit of shadowrun into the game-I felt I'm many ways I was playing cyberpunk with magic spells. The short stories lacked shadowspeak, and the new corps really don't feel like "corps"- but I admit that could be My old school elitism talking. Shadowrun 5 has some interesting game mechanics and i feel it's easier to pull off some off the wall drek, but since the system is easier, the writers go overboard pigeonholing the things you can do so now there is s system for literally everything-that's going to be some chummers cup of soykaf, but it certainly is not mine, omae. The magic chapter is heavy on mechanics, but I feel like shamans got shafted as they kept some of the more ridiculous totems (dragonslayer, firebringer, etc). There's missing mana from the whole book overall- dunkelzahn is mentioned but you dont really get a feel of why he is important, ditto bug shamans, and otaku (technomancers now), reading it made me glad I had the second and third ed books at home and the sixth world wiki online.
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I did not care for what I read. Catalyst did not being much of the spirit of shadowrun into the game-I felt I'm many ways I was playing cyberpunk with magic spells. The short stories lacked shadowspeak, and the new corps really don't feel like "corps"- but I admit that could be My old school elitism talking. Shadowrun 5 has some interesting game mechanics and i feel it's easier to pull off some off the wall drek, but since the system is easier, the writers go overboard pigeonholing the things you can do so now there is s system for literally everything-that's going to be some chummers cup of soykaf, but it certainly is not mine, omae. The magic chapter is heavy on mechanics, but I feel like shamans got shafted as they kept some of the more ridiculous totems (dragonslayer, firebringer, etc). There's missing mana from the whole book overall- dunkelzahn is mentioned but you dont really get a feel of why he is important, ditto bug shamans, and otaku (technomancers now), reading it made me glad I had the second and third ed books at home and the sixth world wiki online.
Are you talking about the tabletop RPG or the video game?
I am looking forward to downloading it come thursday and spending the night on it.
I'm very excited. I'm trying to get as much session prep done in the next two days, just in case I get sucked into the game.
I did not care for what I read. Catalyst did not being much of the spirit of shadowrun into the game-I felt I'm many ways I was playing cyberpunk with magic spells. The short stories lacked shadowspeak, and the new corps really don't feel like "corps"- but I admit that could be My old school elitism talking. Shadowrun 5 has some interesting game mechanics and i feel it's easier to pull off some off the wall drek, but since the system is easier, the writers go overboard pigeonholing the things you can do so now there is s system for literally everything-that's going to be some chummers cup of soykaf, but it certainly is not mine, omae. The magic chapter is heavy on mechanics, but I feel like shamans got shafted as they kept some of the more ridiculous totems (dragonslayer, firebringer, etc). There's missing mana from the whole book overall- dunkelzahn is mentioned but you dont really get a feel of why he is important, ditto bug shamans, and otaku (technomancers now), reading it made me glad I had the second and third ed books at home and the sixth world wiki online.Are you talking about the tabletop RPG or the video game?
tabletop.
tabletop.
The OP was talking about the new video game, SHADOWRUN RETURNS (check the link for videos and screenshots), created by the guy who created the SHADOWRUN franchise in the first place. It's out on the 25th and looks interesting.
I was all up for it until someone said that the campaign is really short, and the game is really a sandbox for people to create and post their own campaigns using the in-game editor (a bit like NEVERWINTER NIGHTS). My interest plummeted a bit after hearing that. I'll probably wait for reviews, though the price is quite tempting.
tabletop.The OP was talking about the new video game, SHADOWRUN RETURNS (check the link for videos and screenshots), created by the guy who created the SHADOWRUN franchise in the first place. It's out on the 25th and looks interesting.
I was all up for it until someone said that the campaign is really short, and the game is really a sandbox for people to create and post their own campaigns using the in-game editor (a bit like NEVERWINTER NIGHTS). My interest plummeted a bit after hearing that. I'll probably wait for reviews, though the price is quite tempting.
Yeah, this is what I've been waiting on, too. The campaign will be the primary draw for me (I don't much care for fan-made content - sorting the wheat from the chaff is difficult, and the quality is always a shadow of the main game) so if it isn't robust enough to stand on its own I'll wait until it receives a major discount.
Ah, straight from the horse's mouth. The campaign will last about 12 hours.
That's not too bad. Short for a big RPG (the last AAA RPG I completed in 12 hours was MASS EFFECT 1, and felt a bit shortchanged for that), but respectable by the standards of any FPS, for example. And at the price it seems reasonable. There'll be extra official campaigns coming along as well, with apparently the next one being set in Berlin.
That's not too bad. Short for a big RPG (the last AAA RPG I completed in 12 hours was MASS EFFECT 1, and felt a bit shortchanged for that), but respectable by the standards of any FPS, for example.
It makes me really sad for the video game industry that 12 hours of gameplay is considered respectable these days.
Oooh, it sounds like there are people who are redoing all of the old adventures and fan created content for the game.
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Ah, straight from the horse's mouth. The campaign will last about 12 hours.
That's not too bad. Short for a big RPG (the last AAA RPG I completed in 12 hours was MASS EFFECT 1, and felt a bit shortchanged for that), but respectable by the standards of any FPS, for example. And at the price it seems reasonable. There'll be extra official campaigns coming along as well, with apparently the next one being set in Berlin.
How? Did you just plow through the game doing only main quests and very few side quests? I completed the game in 30 hours. I was taking my time doing EVERYTHING and when i explored every world with the mako, i got to 40.
How? Did you just plow through the game doing only main quests and very few side quests? I completed the game in 30 hours. I was taking my time doing EVERYTHING and when i explored every world with the mako, i got to 40.Ah, straight from the horse's mouth. The campaign will last about 12 hours.
That's not too bad. Short for a big RPG (the last AAA RPG I completed in 12 hours was MASS EFFECT 1, and felt a bit shortchanged for that), but respectable by the standards of any FPS, for example. And at the price it seems reasonable. There'll be extra official campaigns coming along as well, with apparently the next one being set in Berlin.
Similar here - I have over a hundred hours logged in ME1 across two and a half playthroughs.
Knowing that Shadowrun Returns is offering about a third of ME1's campaign length doesn't make it seem all that appealing as a day one purchase.
12 hours is sizable for a kickstarted game. I think the biggest draw for many is the level editor, once that takes off really popular/well made runs will be quite easy to find recommended
Overall, I'm salivating to play this game, as I'm the only one who GMs Shadowrun I'm relishing the chance to actually go on a few runs.
How? Did you just plow through the game doing only main quests and very few side quests? I completed the game in 30 hours. I was taking my time doing EVERYTHING and when i explored every world with the mako, i got to 40.Ah, straight from the horse's mouth. The campaign will last about 12 hours.
That's not too bad. Short for a big RPG (the last AAA RPG I completed in 12 hours was MASS EFFECT 1, and felt a bit shortchanged for that), but respectable by the standards of any FPS, for example. And at the price it seems reasonable. There'll be extra official campaigns coming along as well, with apparently the next one being set in Berlin.
Similar here - I have over a hundred hours logged in ME1 across two and a half playthroughs.
Knowing that Shadowrun Returns is offering about a third of ME1's campaign length doesn't make it seem all that appealing as a day one purchase.
ME1 was a $60 game.
Shadowrun Returns is a $20 game$/hour, it's the exact same return for your money by your calculation.
ME1 was a $60 game.
Shadowrun Returns is a $20 game$/hour, it's the exact same return for your money by your calculation.
That's a fair point, but the quality of Mass Effect 1 was leagues higher than Shadowrun Returns could hope to be. You weren't just paying for a longer game. You were paying for a showcase title.
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That's a fair point, but the quality of Mass Effect 1 was leagues higher than Shadowrun Returns could hope to be. You weren't just paying for a longer game. You were paying for a showcase title.ME1 was a $60 game.
Shadowrun Returns is a $20 game$/hour, it's the exact same return for your money by your calculation.
You have to expect to get less for your money when you buy from a small business. They take a greater risk by creating the product and are still expected to sell far less, creating a situation where the product will be more expensive.
First time I played ME1 I got a crazy bug where I couldn't talk to Tali on the Normandy at all, and got quite a few crashes elsewhere. So I blitzed the main mission and a couple of side-missions and got through it in about 11-12 hours.
Later on I replayed ME1 with BRING DOWN THE SKY installed and the patches installed so I could talk to everyone on the Normandy (which triggers a couple more side-missions). I also did a lot more of the random planet exploring thing. That took it up to about 17 hours for the main quest and all of the side-quests, and maybe exploring another six or seven planets before I got bored of it. I can see people getting up to 20+ hours if you really like driving the Mako around and can do so for hours on end without being reduced to a frenzied rage-like state, but I don't see how without doing that. Maybe if you also did PINNACLE STATION, but everyone seems to hate that so I never got it.
In contrast, I got 25 hours out of MASS EFFECT 2 (with the DLCS) and about 30 on ME3 (with the first two DLCs but not CITADEL yet).
It makes me really sad for the video game industry that 12 hours of gameplay is considered respectable these days.
Not sure what you mean by 'these days'. HALF-LIFE was about 12 hours long. DOOM was about 9-10 hours. FPS games have always been about that length because the detailed content-creation for those kind of games is more challenging to make than for an RPG (where you can get away - within limits as DRAGONS AGE 2 found out to its cost - with reusing assets a bit more).
That's a fair point, but the quality of Mass Effect 1 was leagues higher than Shadowrun Returns could hope to be. You weren't just paying for a longer game. You were paying for a showcase title.
In terms of graphics, voice acting etc, sure. MASS EFFECT's budget was probably $30-40 million as a minimum and SHADOWRUN RETURNS's was less than $2 million.
However, that doesn't mean it can't be better-written and have more interesting characters. I am fully expecting both TORMENT and PROJECT ETERNITY to tear BioWare a new one when it comes to dialogue, characterisation and choice/consequence. I'd count it as a disappointment if they aren't at least better than any BioWare game since KotOR in those departments.
12 hours is sizable for a kickstarted game
It is, but I think the disappointment stems from the fact that fellow Kickstarter RPGs WASTELAND 2, PROJECT ETERNITY and TORMENT: TIDES OF NUMENERA all sound like they'll be a lot longer than 12 hours; Brian Fargo even said that WASTELAND 2 is one of the biggest games he's ever worked on, and he worked on FALLOUT 1-2 and BALDUR'S GATE 1-2.
That said, the SHADOWRUN team is much smaller (the others are being made by comparatively very big companies) and they got a lot less money from the Kickstarter, so the scope being smaller is understandable.
looking forward to it as well but i won't be getting it day 1. I'll see about reviews first and get it later.
I have seen a lot of discussion in my gaming circles about game length recently, and a lot of people are looking for shorter RPGs they can get through in a week. Honestly, I'm glad that it is a shorter game. It means I will play through all of it before becoming bored. I have way too many 40+ hour games sitting on my shelf with 15 hours of play on them.
Also, at 12 hours isn't this about the length of Fallout? I'm pretty sure you can rush that in 6.
You have to expect to get less for your money when you buy from a small business. They take a greater risk by creating the product and are still expected to sell far less, creating a situation where the product will be more expensive.
Yeah, I know. But, as Werthead pointed out, a 12-hour campaign is disappointing when held up to the lengths that we'll see from other Kickstarted RPGs. And it seems almost a waste to develop what I imagine must be a pretty robust engine for creating playable Shadowrun content, and then only make 12 hours of content with it. I know they'll be making more down the line, but an RPG's legacy is its content.
Just remember that this does not include the berlin campaign they are making.
Also the level editor is going to be released. Already people are making content for it. there is even one project that is looking to convert all the shadowrun books to missions.
I see user created designs will be a major part of the game.
This. .. Isn't about the tabletop? Am in the wrong thread? !
That's a fair point, but the quality of Mass Effect 1 was leagues higher than Shadowrun Returns could hope to be. You weren't just paying for a longer game. You were paying for a showcase title.ME1 was a $60 game.
Shadowrun Returns is a $20 game$/hour, it's the exact same return for your money by your calculation.
Graphically, this is true. Graphics aren't the only aspect of a game though. I understand that you don't like fan created content for games, I do, and it is a major feature of the game.
I honestly don't know if the game is worth it yet. A lot of it depends on game play, what is combat like, the UI, etc. Could be great, could be awful.
Just remember that this does not include the berlin campaign they are making.
Which will be paid DLC (although free to higher-tier Kickstarter backers, I believe), as I understand it, so not included in the original price (if it is, that'd be quite cool).
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That's not too bad. Short for a big RPG (the last AAA RPG I completed in 12 hours was MASS EFFECT 1, and felt a bit shortchanged for that), but respectable by the standards of any FPS, for example.It makes me really sad for the video game industry that 12 hours of gameplay is considered respectable these days.
I'll express the opposite opinion. I think there are a LOT of games that turn into boring reptitive grind-fest, all because over the last few years people have decided that the length of a game is a more important factor in judging it than whether or not it actually maintains any level of fun for the duration. I actually read a professional review where one of the minor nitpicks was that, although they enjoyed the story of the game, the gameplay wasn't all that great. Given much more weight, however, was the criticism of the game's short length. Think about that: a "professional" reviewer was saying that they wanted the game they weren't having any fun playing to be longer! They wanted MORE tedious and not-fun gameplay. My mind boggles.
That's because gamers are masochist.
Part of it is money. You can buy a 2-hour film on Blu-Ray for £12-£15, or get a load of films through a service like LoveFilm or Netflix for £6 a month. So when you're being asked to shell out £30 for a PC game (or £50-£60 for a console game), the length as well as the quality of the gaming experience will factor into the decision. This is why so many single-player-focused games have a multiplayer mode bolted on, purely to try to sell more copies as it expands the appeal of the game.
Length isn't the sole important thing, of course. PORTAL is brilliant at about 3 hours. MAX PAYNE 2 was only 5 hours long, and is the only full-price game I've ever bought at that length which I really enjoyed and didn't feel ripped off by (MAX PAYNE 3, conversely, is about 15 hours long and probably twice as along as it needs to be, mostly due to the ludicrously overlong cut scenes). FTL is, of course, excellent even though you can get to the end in 4 hours (though you will almost certainly not win on your first playthrough). But the quality of the game is something that, increasingly (due to the absence of pre-release reviews) can't be measured ahead of time. On that basis, people fall back on length as an early way of measuring potential appeal (and things that increase that length, like multiplayer options or co-op) versus the price.
Graphically, this is true.
Graphically. And in terms of voice acting. And in terms of sound design. And in terms of interpersonal interaction. And in terms of about eight other really important metrics.
Shadowrun Returns will probably be a good game (we'll find out as soon as reviews start rolling in) - maybe even a great one. But it's playing minor league baseball, and games like DA and Mass Effect are practically pennant-holders. (Which is not its fault, mind you; Shadowrun Returns doesn't have the budget to afford to compete on all those levels.)
So, what is going to be your first character? Since I never played the Sadowrun PnP RPG, I'll try to keep it simple at first with a Human Street Samurai. I'll probably go switch hitter (ranged/melee) with a focus on cyberware, if that is even possible.
Any advice from someone who know the rules of the PnP RPG?
Graphically, this is true.Graphically. And in terms of voice acting. And in terms of sound design. And in terms of interpersonal interaction. And in terms of about eight other really important metrics.
Shadowrun Returns will probably be a good game (we'll find out as soon as reviews start rolling in) - maybe even a great one. But it's playing minor league baseball, and games like DA and Mass Effect are practically pennant-holders. (Which is not its fault, mind you; Shadowrun Returns doesn't have the budget to afford to compete on all those levels.)
I get it, you aren't interested.
Do you have something interesting to say about the game, or do you want to talk more about why you aren't interested in it?
I get it, you aren't interested.
Do you have something interesting to say about the game, or do you want to talk more about why you aren't interested in it?
That's literally the opposite of what I've said. My very first post in this thread is me talking about how my decision on whether to purchase the game immediately will depend on reviews (which I expect to come out very soon), and that either way I'm planning on spending money on it.
Are you just trying to get me to stop talking about it simply because I'm not showering it in hype-sprinkles?
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I'm buying it because I want to see more games like this. That's pretty much it.
I'm sure I'll enjoy the campaign even if it is a little short, and I'm sure there will be some good fan-content that the community will review and recommend, so I'll get to enjoy that too (even if some of it will be crap)
And then, hopefully, if it does well, we'll get DLC or a sequel.
Vote with your dollar, etc.
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Scott seems to have appointed himself the defender of big businesses. It seems to be his opinion that pouring more money into something automatically makes it better. Actual creativity isn't needed, just money. A indie game like Journey can never ever possibly even hope to compare to a big-budget game like Duke Nukem Forever.
Scott seems to have appointed himself the defender of big businesses. It seems to be his opinion that pouring more money into something automatically makes it better. Actual creativity isn't needed, just money. A indie game like Journey can never ever possibly even hope to compare to a big-budget game like Duke Nukem Forever.
Kthulhu doesn't understand the difference between a game that benefits from more development resources and a game that is chronically mismanaged, and likes to conflate the two when it suits his point.
Want to keep speaking for me, Kthulhu?
(And I know this won't mesh well with your simplistic view of who I am, but I've spent hundreds - perhaps over a thousand - dollars on supporting small companies with promising Kickstarter projects.)
I will be buying this... Lots of love for Shadowrun.
I purchased the Baldurs Gate game, it hasn't inspired me much and I am hoping for more from SR.
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Reviews have started to hit (despite a midnight PST embargo deadline), and things are looking great so far. I might pick this up tonight.
EDIT: Now I'm really torn. Do I wait until midnight to get a more widespread impression from reviewers? Or do I buy it in the next few hours to get the benefit of the 10% preorder discount?
Reviews have started to hit (despite a midnight PST embargo deadline), and things are looking great so far. I might pick this up tonight.
EDIT: Now I'm really torn. Do I wait until midnight to get a more widespread impression from reviewers? Or do I buy it in the next few hours to get the benefit of the 10% preorder discount?
Thanks for the link Scott!
No manual save, what were they thinking? o_O
It was probably the next stretch goal.
I went ahead and bought it; the 10% off discount runs until the game is unlocked later today, and the reviews are already out (and universally positive, it looks like).
Not sure what you mean by 'these days'. HALF-LIFE was about 12 hours long. DOOM was about 9-10 hours. FPS games have always been about that length because the detailed content-creation for those kind of games is more challenging to make than for an RPG (where you can get away - within limits as DRAGONS AGE 2 found out to its cost - with reusing assets a bit more).
I don't know what games you've been playing, but I still recall how shockingly disappointed I was when I completed Max Payne 2 in less than a day (let's say 10-12 hours). That was the first game I played that didn't at least last a week. If 12 hours is 'respectable' these days, I assume it's only gotten worse.
Though I also have to laugh at the idea of completing ME1 in 10 hours. If that's the benchmark you're basing your opinion on, I'm guessing a 12 hour title is really a 40 hour game in the real world.
I should note though, that I don't have an issue with Shadowrun itself. It seems priced accordingly and isn't more ambitious than this. That's fine. It's more the notion that this should be a 'respectable industry standard'. Which it might be. Which makes me sad.
Yup, the reviews are pretty strong so I will pick this up.
Graphically. And in terms of voice acting. And in terms of sound design. And in terms of interpersonal interaction. And in terms of about eight other really important metrics.
What you seem to be saying is that a big-budget game will always be better overall than a small-budget game because its graphics and sound will generally be better. I don't think that's true at all.
The best Western RPG of all time is PLANESCAPE: TORMENT, despite it being a 14-year-old, 2D, overhead-only RPG. It is the best RPG of all time because of the depth of character, the depth of theme, the questions it raises and asks of the player, because of the highly intelligent puzzles, the avoidance of cliche, the way it negates metagaming by involving metagaming practices (such as quick-loading to avoid death) in the game structure itself, and because it's just so damn well-written.
The fact it was made on probably less than 10% of the budget of say DRAGON AGE II or MASS EFFECT 3, has far fewer explosions, is not fully voiced has and no comparable lengthy cut-scenes is irrelevant. It's a vastly superior game because the writing, gameplay, art design, story, characters and quests combine in a way that makes it far greater than the sum of its parts.
I don't think SHADOWRUN RETURNS is quite in that league based on reviews, but certainly there's no reason PROJECT ETERNITY (made by about half of the same team as PS:T) or TIDES OF NUMENERA (made by pretty much the other half) won't be.
I don't know what games you've been playing,
Though I said so in my former reply? Let's recap:
DOOM, HALF-LIFE, MAX PAYNE 2 and 3.
A few other action/FPS games I've played (and this list is by no means exhaustive, and is on PC only, not counting the Amiga years before that):
DOOM 2, DOOM 3, FAR CRY 1-3, CRYSIS 1-2, CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN, SIN, HEXEN, HERETIC, SHOGO: MOBILE ARMOURED DIVISION, GUNMAN CHRONICLES, HALF-LIFE 2, MAX PAYNE 1, DARK FORCES, JEDI KNIGHT, JEDI OUTCAST, JEDI ACADEMY, FEAR, QUAKE 1-3, DELTA FORCE 1-3, SERIOUS SAM 1-3, CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK and DUKE NUKEM 3D.
So I think I have a pretty good idea of how long FPS/action games have lasted over the years. They have NEVER taken 'a whole week' to play and complete.
RPGs? Definitely. They used to be huge (some of the MIGHT AND MAGICs and ULTIMAs, even the early ones, could clock in at 100 hours+) and quite a few are still huge now.
If 12 hours is 'respectable' these days, I assume it's only gotten worse.
No, for action games and first-person shooters, it's pretty much stayed the same. We had a bad period in the late 2000s when SP action games dropped down to 7-8 hours (like the CALL OF DUTY games, where most of the focus was on multiplayer instead), but we seem to have recovered from that. BIOSHOCK INFINITE, one of the biggest FPS games out this year, clocked in for me at around 17 hours (probably doable in 15, since I had a couple of insane fights I reloded several times on due to an unwillingness to drop the difficulty).
For an RPG you generally expect more than that. For FPS or action games? No, that's never been the case.
Though I also have to laugh at the idea of completing ME1 in 10 hours. If that's the benchmark you're basing your opinion on, I'm guessing a 12 hour title is really a 40 hour game in the real world.
You certainly can spend 40 hours on MASS EFFECT 1 if you include all the DLC, ram the difficulty up to maximum, and spend 2 hours on each optional planet driving the Mako around until you eyes fall out of their sockets in tedium.
I just think most players won't be interested in doing that.
What you seem to be saying is that a big-budget game will always be better overall than a small-budget game because its graphics and sound will generally be better.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that games are capable of having a great story and solid characters at any level of budget. Games are only capable of having mind-blowing graphics, full, professional voice acting, Hollywood-level sound design, etc. when they receive very high levels of funding. So you can have the story and characters when your budget is small. But you can have the story, the characters, the graphics, the sound, the voice-acting, and everything else when your budget is massive.
I don't think SHADOWRUN RETURNS is quite in that league based on reviews, but certainly there's no reason PROJECT ETERNITY (made by about half of the same team as PS:T) or TIDES OF NUMENERA (made by pretty much the other half) won't be.
Both of which I've backed.
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Only two days left...oh, f@~$ yes.
I have absolutely no idea what race/class combination I want to start with; I really don't think I've looked forward to a game this much since Dragon Age: Origins.
So who else is coming to Seattle 2054 with me and how do you plan on starting off?
I am looking forward to the game. My first character will be the elf physical adept in an effort to recreate my favorite Shadowrun character.
The length being 12 hours is less than I hoped for. However, I do weigh the base cost of the game in the decision factor. The game is relatively inexpensive so the amount of time is okay. There is also the Berlin expansion coming as well if you enjoy the game.
On modding, I am hearing mixed reviews. The main issue seems to be creating of new assets. Changing stats seems to be pretty straight forward on the other hand.
Note, I was a backer at a fairly high level due to being a Shadowrun fan. My t-shirts should be coming in August. However, I feel it is important to try to keep a balanced view of both positives and negatives.
Yeah, what I'm seeing in the reviews seems to indicate an enjoyable, but short and fairly simple game. The real test is going to be the fan-made content IMO. If a good system develops for rating and distributing all of that, it could be fairly amazing.