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I like the Oracle a lot in terms of concept, but whenever I try to come up with a concrete build, I can't help coming to the conclusion that a cleric could do it all better. What am I missing?
In particular, most revelations hugely underwhelm me. I'm having trouble picking a number of revelations for the first 10 levels because there are so few choices I would even want to have. Get a blast with 1d4s, Fort save half, once per day. Ugh. Get a rider effect when you crit with your non-existent attack spells. Gna. Summon an armor that is entirely inferior to what you bought with your starting gold for a few minutes per day? Arrrgh! Maybe I'm putting too much weight on that, but if I compare this to cleric domains, arcane schools, and bloodlines, I weep in envy. Usually the best choices within a mystery are things that a Cleric gets for free even before choosing a domain, such as channeling or a decent weapon choice. What good is the Battle mystery if you don't get a strong Fort save? Remember when Favored Souls used to get all-good saves?
I know the spontaneous casting is supposed to be a huge bonus, but unlike the Sorcerer, the Oracle doesn't have that many spells worth spamming all day long. Apart from Hold Person, all spells a 7th level Oracle can cast are buff and heal spells that are best cast outside of combat. I guess in combat I'm just supposed to babble in Tongues and fire my crossbow...? Also, the redeeming quality of Cleric casting, having the right tool for any kind of ailment, is gone due to the tiny number of spells known. A Cleric can break a curse, remove disease, restore ability damage, remove paralysis etc if needed. If my Oracle takes all those spells, what is there left? I guess it works for a Life Oracle, but that's the most Cleric-like Oracle anyway.
I am aware of the Color Spray cheese for the Heavens Oracle, but that will wear off after a few levels. The later illusion pattern spells only fascinate, which seems rather underwhelming, given all the conditions that snap the target out of it again.
What am I missing? I want to like the Oracle! Some help?
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Agreed. I'm playing an oracle in a Serpent's Skull PbP (run by Mr. Alexander Kilcoyne, if you care to look at the adventure so far down in the PbP threads) and I could NOT be happier. I've played Clerics since I started playing RPGs, and the Life Oracle is (to me) all the fun of a Cleric turned up to 12. I love playing the Curse aspect (I chose Tongues mostly for messageboard play, but YMMV, I also think the Lame, Blindness, and Haunted curses would be a lot of fun to play too).
I think the key to finding an Oracle that will work for you is looking at the Bonus Spells list. This operates off of the same arguement (let's not rehash it) as the Human Sorceror: that the more spells that you want that you get for free, the more powerful you are altogether. Add these free spells to the ones you'll get when you take the Favored class bonus for being Human (assuming you are human), and all of a sudden you've got a pretty good mitt full of spells known. In the case of the Life Oracle, you're getting the Restoration line and Heal(!) for free, as well as the Cure line, so you're an amazing healer without even dedicating any chosen spells to Healing. Of course you'll be able to channel energy as well. Life oracle, in short, just seems really good. The other options certainly aren't bad either, when you look at it in this light.
But, crunch aside, flavor is what really makes the oracle fun to play.
I like the Oracle a lot in terms of concept, but whenever I try to come up with a concrete build, I can't help coming to the conclusion that a cleric could do it all better. What am I missing?
If you look at it from a power-gaming or optimizer perspective, you would be right. However, many people value flavor, and appreciate the interesting RP choices and great character fluff with the curses and mysteries...
Additionally, being a spontaneous caster, oracles don't have to think and plan in advance every session in the way a good vancian caster has to. Some players prefer it that way.
I have to agree with the OP; the revelations underwhelm me, big time. Most of them seem bleh to the point that I don't even want to take them. I've tried my hand a an oracle, and while I really enjoy the concept and curses, the actual crunch leaves much to be desired (in my opinion, of course).
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I agree that the fluff around the Oracle is first-class and can make for great character concepts. However, one should not have to pay for great fluff with crunch sacrifices.
I agree that the free spells make a lot of difference for the Life or Fire Oracle, for example. But for many other mysteries, Paizo seemed to have gone more for flavor than for usability. How come, for example, that a Wind Oracle gets only tons and tons of redundant wind-creation spells but has to wait till level 10 to gain some limited flight ability when Witches, Wizards, Druids, Summoners etc can fly at level 5? (I'm disappointed to see right now that Air and Weather clerics do not get true flight at all...)
I don't see them as crunch sacrifices. BTW I really hate the way folks use "Crunch and "Fluff" in arguments an the value judgements implied.
Interpreting fluff and crunch as value judgements and not just names for different part of the game is your choice, not a given.
You get to CHOOSE spells as an Oracle. The free spells give you a basis for the character but that does not mean that those should be the only spells you rely on to build a concept. And remember a wizard taking the fly spell at level 5 is tying up on average half of his highest level spell capability. Again... the consequences of choice.
You get to choose spells as an oracle on every level-up. You get to choose spells as a cleric everytime you rest. What's your point?
The spells you choose are also part of the creation process. You use those spells to further develop the concepts springboarded by the free bonus spells. Maybe you'll take summon monster to call elementals, or another spell to develop a side aspect of the character.
Spell choice as an oracle can not be viewed the same way as cleric any more than sorcerers can be treated as wizards.
There's an important difference - clerics can automatically choose between all spells on their spell lists, while wizards can't, because they need to learn spells first. This allows the cleric to choose from a much larger pool of spells after every rest.
And I still don't see why only being able to choose the spells at level-up instead of every morning is an advantage.
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And I still don't see why only being able to choose the spells at level-up instead of every morning is an advantage.
It's not, necessarily. What's better about the Cleric knowing every Divine Spell but only ever routinely memorizing the 5 "most-useful" or most thematic spells at every level? I don't know many Clerics that memorize random Divine spells every morning just because they can (*Yawn*, Good morning, I think I'll pray for Bless Water today).
Regardless, the OP asked for reasons to like the oracle. Not reasons to dislike it, or reasons to like the Cleric better. What LazarX is saying, I think (forgive me if I misinterpret), is that if you like the concept of spontaneous casting, and you like the role that Clerics play in general but are interested in a bit more specialization, you'll probably like the Oracle.
Battle Oracle is pretty solid. It's able to hold its own in melee (like 3.5 clerics), it's got some nifty revelations along the way, and the final revelation is outrageously good.
Spontaneous casting allows you to reliably cast self-buffs and other spells that the battle cleric could only do once a day. It gets the entire Cure series of spells for free, and can cast those multiple times a day. And, it gets more useful class skills in the mystery (Perception, I'm looking at you...) and gets more skills per level than the cleric.
Battle oracles are better battle clerics than actual battle clerics will ever be, mostly because they have staying power and stay useful through multiple fights per day.
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I'll preface this with the following - I do not like sorcerers. I personally believe they are enfeebled versions of wizards. Sure they get a few more spells, but a specialist wizard who does smart spell selection and keeps a couple of items like pearls of power around gets nearly as many per day, gain their spells a level sooner than sorcerers, and have access to a lot more options. This is not meant to create an argument or as an argument point, it is to provide background regarding how I feel.
All that being said, I like oracles even though I realize they're the sorcerer version of the cleric. In fact, I'd argue that I might enjoy Oracles more than Clerics. There are a number of advantages and reasons for this:
1) Skill Points
Oracles get two more skill points per level. This is huge and an advantage over the sorcerer who usually suffers in comparison to their high int brethren.
2) Skill List
The Oracle's chosen mystery gives them some extra skills over the cleric. Again, as a personal preference I think this is important.
3) The Revelations
I think this feature is immensely cool. People who want to channel can with the appropriate mystery, but the other revelations open up lots of options and unlike the sorcerer they're not set in stone. You get to pick and choose what you like.
4) The Way Cleric Spells Work
This is a big one. I understand how a sorcerer works, but it's not how I mentally work. I like having a big list of spells to pick from (knowing that the spells I have in my spellbook are the ones I find useful). The "useful" list of Cleric spells isn't quite as overwhelming as the list of Wizard ones. This makes it a lot more reasonable to pick and choose (at least for me). Sure I might not be able to do some of the quintessential Cleric spells, but in most cases Cleric spells that are on that list are reactionary, not proactive. I can still read them from scrolls, blast from wands, drink them from potions, etc. after the fight is done. Their defensive spell nature allows this distinction from what the sorcerer typically is trying to achieve.
5) The level penalty isn't as significant
This is another big one. I feel being a level behind on the wizard curve is excruciating. Watching your wizard fried blasting away at fireballs, using black tentacles, etc. while you don't even have the spell isn't terribly fun. Additionally, once you do get to their spell level yo usually get one spell. Sure you can cast it multiple times, but by then the wizard's already doing so much more. Moreover, they've been casting spells at +1 DC for a full level beforehand, which is quite important for an offensive caster. When you compare the cleric list though, those differences aren't quite as awful. They're also not as dependent on DCs since a lot of their spells aren't going after the enemy. It could just be the way I view cleric spells vs. the way I view wizard spells, but overall I just don't think being behind a level is quite as painful.
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1) Skill Points
Oracles get two more skill points per level. This is huge and an advantage over the sorcerer who usually suffers in comparison to their high int brethren.2) Skill List
The Oracle's chosen mystery gives them some extra skills over the cleric. Again, as a personal preference I think this is important.
My Oracle of the Heavens has a great skill set. It also suits the character to have the free, powering-up mage armour (Aasimar, Desnan-focused, heading for spherwalker, chucking starknives from the back rather than melee).
I have a Lore Oracle I really want to try. High charisma, high int.
Start with sidestep as my first revelation so that dex becomes a dump stat.
At 3rd, pick up Focused Trance for a +20 on Knowledge checks, suck it bards.
At 7th, pick up Brain Drain for stealing information from enemies while dealing a little bit of damage. Who needs interrogations?
At 11th, pick up arcane archivist you I can cast an arcane spell here and there.
Augment this is a mix of divination spells.
Basically, you are then party know it all.
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I know the spontaneous casting is supposed to be a huge bonus, but unlike the Sorcerer, the Oracle doesn't have that many spells worth spamming all day long. Apart from Hold Person, all spells a 7th level Oracle can cast are buff and heal spells that are best cast outside of combat. I guess in combat I'm just supposed to babble in Tongues and fire my crossbow...?
First, let me say that I REALLY like the oracle! In fact, being able to have a smaller selection of cleric spells that I hand pick at each level which I can then spontaneously cast as needed instead of the way you cast as a cleric is probably the BIGGEST draw the class has for me.
Also, when you say "Apart from Hold Person, all spells a 7th level Oracle can cast are buff and heal spells that are best cast outside of combat” … what exactly do you mean? There are LOTS of cool 2nd and 3rd level cleric spells to choose from! Heck, a 7th level oracle knows 5 - 1st, 3 - 2nd and 2- 3rd level spells chosen from the cleric list. I could fill those slots with a pretty nice collection of cleric spells. And this is not even counting the additional free Mystery spells the oracle gets based on his mystery OR all the various Cure (or Inflict, if you swing that way) spells you know!
I think what others have said is true. The oracle is to the cleric what the sorcerer is to the wizard. Some prefer one over the other, that’s all.
For what it’s worth, I can’t wait to start our Kingmaker campaign in a month or so – I’m playing an oracle of nature.
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Thanks for the replies, I didn't expect the thread to stay alive while I was gone... :)
As for the "Oracle is the Divine Sorcerer", yeah, I'm aware that's the fundamental idea, but for me it doesn't end up working that well because (1) the revelations are way weaker than bloodline abilities and school abilities, and (2) divine spells are so much less useful that arcane ones.
I'm sure being useful in weapon combat is a big plus though.
I actually prefer playing Sorcerers over Wizards. Even with the limited choice, I can equip myself with enough options to be useful all day long, without holding back or rationing... I don't see that happening with divine spells. That's also why I find the mystery spell lists so important: They're the only way an Oracle gets access to arcane spells that are more generally useful than divine ones.
@ Marc Radle: Please do enlighten me about the copious spell choice options on the divine spell list! I do see the benefit of Divine Favor several times per day (especially later when the bonus gets better), but given that I have to sacrifice a combat round to cast it most of the time, I'm wondering whether it's worth it.
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I actually prefer playing Sorcerers over Wizards. Even with the limited choice, I can equip myself with enough options to be useful all day long, without holding back or rationing... I don't see that happening with divine spells. That's also why I find the mystery spell lists so important: They're the only way an Oracle gets access to arcane spells that are more generally useful than divine ones.
@ Marc Radle: Please do enlighten me about the copious spell choice options on the divine spell list! I do see the benefit of Divine Favor several times per day (especially later when the bonus gets better), but given that I have to sacrifice a combat round to cast it most of the time, I'm wondering whether it's worth it.
It sounds like your comments are more about the overall quality of divine spells versus arcane spells and less about the oracle in particular. I think the fact that arcane spells are generally considered "better" overall than divine has certainly been discussed plenty of the months and years. I sort of tend to agree in fact. However, there are still very good combat oriented cleric spells. Add to that the fact that the oracle is a spontaneous caster and can pick his spells at will - the class is not for everyone, but I certainly like it.
Keep in mind that I did not actually use the phrase "copious spell choice options on the divine spell list". As I mentioned, divine spells are generally considered to be a bit less powerful and/or combat oriented than arcane spells (although there are certainly those that would even argue against this as well:) My confusion was more about when you said "Apart from Hold Person, all spells a 7th level Oracle can cast are buff and heal spells that are best cast outside of combat”. I simply don't think that's quite true.
As far as specific cleric spells for a combat focused 7th level oracle ... how about:
1st Level
Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round
Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Doom: One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
2nd Level
Align Weapon: Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Inflict Moderate Wounds: Touch attack, 2d8 damage + 1/level (max +10).
Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own.
3rd Level
Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
Inflict Serious Wounds: Touch attack, 3d8 damage + 1/level (max +15).
Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage (more against undead).
I know I've played clerics in the past and found spells like Spiritual Weapon, Cause Fear, Blindness/Deafness and Searing Light to be very effective!
Just some thoughts. I hope you didn't see my initial post as attacking you!
If you do end up playing an oracle at some point, have fun!
In general arcane spells are better than divine, but what is interesting is that one of the most versatile and useful arcane spells, summon monster, is also a divine spell.
I urge everyone to look at gnome racial "Pyromaniac" and then look at flame oracle. The combo is quite awesome. I took the "Haunted" curse too, so things around me randomly light on fire. The townsfolk hate me, but the party's pretty cool with it.
I'm playing an oracle of battle as a GMNPC in legacy of fire. I'm not playing it to the hilt (he's the party healer and will often heal instead of fighting), but it's still a pretty solid concept.
From what I can see, the battle mystery can easily make the oracle outperform as a divinely fuelled juggernaut of destruction!
All of these are quite nice, and some are pure awesome.
I didn't mention the Avatar of Battle final revelation because it's a capstone, and hardly ever shows up. But it's ultra-awesome.
Anyway, all this plus the fact that you can cast your magic spontaneously (and more often) means that as an oracle of battle, you can easily outfight a cleric.
And look at the oracle of life. Best healer in the game.
An oracle might not be able to walk several paths at once like a cleric can, but in their area of expertise, they outperform clerics.
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I am playing an Oracle of Bones in PFS, and let me tell you, they freaking ROCK.
Sure, I don't have massive spell compendiums to pull from, but I make due just fine. While PFS is centered around a continuous 4-5 hour game structure where resting/sleeping seems to be unlikely, thus causing me to have to conserve my spells at lower level, I don't find this to be that detrimental.
I augment my role in the party with a decent # of skills (I have an INT bonus of +1 and +1 from human favored class, so 6 per level is pretty stout) and somewhat ok additional combat support...meaning I waltz around with both a sickle and a morning star, I have a 16 in STR meaning at first lvl I'm +3 to hit, and I'm actually well armored and shielded.
Oracles have a decent (not stellar) BAB, and while at low level I'm not all ubered out, let me tell you as I go up this character will be pretty nifty.
Oracle of bones can cast Animate Dead at 4th level. Thats a max of 8HD worth of zombies/undead to run around and help control the battlefield as well. With Revelations I can already summon one a day for my CHA bonus in rounds (against the BBEG so far, Zombie has been VERY helpful) and with another Revelation I can channel to control undead, 1HD per Oracle level.
Trust me when I say, for a "white necromancer" this class rocks hardcore.
There are salient points by the HATE 'EM crowd, and the LOVE 'EM crowd, so noone is both 100% right and 100% wrong.
This character is fun, exciting, useful, decent in h2h combat, magically adept, and if necessary, a moderately useful backup healer.
Other Paths may be as cool or cooler, and for fluff I love the idea of a Flame Oracle, or a Water Oracle.
Still, so far, Bones is the best path I think.
I recently built an Oracle that is delightfully flavorful and wonderfully effective. Gnome Oracle of Lore with the Magical Linguist and Gift of Tongues alternate racial traits. I also took the Eldritch Heritage (Maestro) chain. I focused on the few divine Enchantment spells, particularly the language-dependent ones. Being able to drop DC 26 Greater Commands or Greater Forbid Action's on the battlefield multiple times per day can be an extremely effective strategy.
Spontaneous Symbology also plays nice with the racial traits, and gives you some excellent (if stationary and pricy) out-of-combat defensive options.
On top of that, she's got big bonuses to every single knowledge skill, as well as social skills, on top of knowing EVERY language, while still rocking a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, medium armor and a shield, and adding my main stat to my AC.
The point is, you can make some extremely fun, flavorful, and mechanically effective oracle builds that you just couldn't pull off with a cleric.