Goblin Squad Member
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If I come up against someone I intend to SAD, and it turns out it is someone who repeatedly attacks first because of the PVP flag I am carrying... At which point do I just attack that person first and not give them the initiative?
If it is someone that does this, attacking first, I will return the favor even if it means an alignment or reputation hit. I am fine with that, but I dont want to hear later that Im griefing or RPKing.
SAD gives boosts to stealth; I assume it can be launched from ambush so the other side doesn't normally see you first.
If you're riding the highroad and someone might attack you (because you're wearing a PvP flag - should you be immune?)... well, I guess you decide if you'll remain an Outlaw or drop the Outlaw flag to attack the other guy first. I'd suggest that you let him attack first if you think you can take him: you keep the Outlaw flag and get to loot his body. Otherwise, flee.
Oh yeah, I agree. Although, SAD does not give stealth bonuses but the Outlaw flag does. I figure thats what you ment.
If I approach someone to SAD them, my guess is that they will see me at some point.
I of course will use tactics and be picky about who I will attack outright and lose the outlaw flag. The bonuses are worth having. I just wanted to be clear about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They have some time, I'm not sure how much.
The outlaw loot bonuses seem to have just gone away though, if everyone gets to pick through 75% of inventory. I'm not sure if that's good or bad for your profession.
Edit: You might also be able to use outriders to make spoiler attacks on the traveler's rescue party, to use up his delay clock.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I come up against someone I intend to SAD, and it turns out it is someone who repeatedly attacks first because of the PVP flag I am carrying... At which point do I just attack that person first and not give them the initiative?If it is someone that does this, attacking first, I will return the favor even if it means an alignment or reputation hit. I am fine with that, but I dont want to hear later that Im griefing or RPKing.
An underlying assumption here is that the fight must take place. Those in this thread who have advocated PvP over paying tribute, would not have a reason to attack first if you don't engage them...they are not advocating aggressive PvP. Their claim is based upon the idea that bandits will initiate PvP by stopping their travel and SAD'ing them...they have claimed they will immediately attack if that occurs. If you see Nihimon, who you know will attack you if you try to SAD him, you do have a choice to not use your bandit mechanic to stop his travel. This of course, is why Nihimon has made the claim he will never pay a SAD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An underlying assumption here is that the fight must take place. Those in this thread who have advocated PvP over paying tribute, would not have a reason to attack first if you don't engage them...they are not advocating aggressive PvP. Their claim is based upon the idea that bandits will initiate PvP by stopping their travel and SAD'ing them...they have claimed they will immediately attack if that occurs. If you see Nihimon, who you know will attack you if you try to SAD him, you do have a choice to not use your bandit mechanic to stop his travel. This of course, is why Nihimon has made the claim he will never pay a SAD.
If I come up against someone I intend to SAD, and it turns out it is someone who repeatedly attacks first because of the PVP flag I am carrying... At which point do I just attack that person first and not give them the initiative?If it is someone that does this, attacking first, I will return the favor even if it means an alignment or reputation hit. I am fine with that, but I dont want to hear later that Im griefing or RPKing.
I played Eve for 6+ years. My first few months I messed around with everything in the game, finally I PVPd. The rest of my play in that game was devoted to that end. The rush gained from just before a fight and then examining each win or loss to see what I could have done better kept me at it. I do not expect it to be different in PFO.
Nihimon did claim earlier that since a bandit will have the Outlaw Flag, he will just attack. So I assumed that meant SAD or not when approached.
I understand why Nihimon and others have said they will not pay a SAD. Because they do not believe in caving to bandits, and also a scare tactic to hope they do not get stopped at all.
Its mainly a pride thing. On both ends, because when I see someone who is known to reject SADs, I will of course stop them unless I know I cannot win.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They have some time, I'm not sure how much.
The outlaw loot bonuses seem to have just gone away though, if everyone gets to pick through 75% of inventory. I'm not sure if that's good or bad for your profession.
Edit: You might also be able to use outriders to make spoiler attacks on the traveler's rescue party, to use up his delay clock.
Im not sure that it has gone away. The 75% will be standard, then the outlaw flag will give a bonus on top of that. Granted it was not made clear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, they said "When you die, approximately 25% of unthreaded items on your body are immediately destroyed." That might just be lost. Note that you see more of your target's inventory before your attack now, so that might be the trade-off.
Yeah, who knows, There is alot of things that have changed. They may need to change the Outlaw bonus. They could also make it so less then 75% is lootable, and you get the full 75% if you have had the outlaw flag for 10 hours.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Getting 75% instead of 25% (or say 50% if you're a flagged Outlaw) should make PK more profitable, anyway.
You have your numbers wrong here, I think. If we kill the target we get 75 % and 25% is destroyed. It is now not clear what the looting bonus of the Outlaw Flag will impact.
Maybe it will lessen the 25%, allowing us to loot more. If on the othe hand the Outlaw only enhances our stealth ability, but we give up stealth to SAD, than we lose both advantages of the Outlaw Flag when issuing a SAD, and then have that SAD rejected.
I'm just wondering if the SAD has been made less desirable, even against unflagged targets?
I was also playing around with the idea of SADing at 20% for flagged opponents and 40% for unflagged opponents. Now giving up 75% of the loot in exchange for only 20 or 40% is not a reasonable bargain for me. I may go with 40% and 60% for flagged and unflagged SAD offers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Getting 75% instead of 25% (or say 50% if you're a flagged Outlaw) should make PK more profitable, anyway.You have your numbers wrong here, I think. If we kill the target we get 75 % and 25% is destroyed. It is now not clear what the looting bonus of the Outlaw Flag will impact.
Maybe it will lessen the 25%, allowing us to loot more. If on the othe hand the Outlaw only enhances our stealth ability, but we give up stealth to SAD, than we lose both advantages of the Outlaw Flag when issuing a SAD, and then have that SAD rejected.
I'm just wondering if the SAD has been made less desirable, even against unflagged targets?
I was also playing around with the idea of SADing at 20% for flagged opponents and 40% for unflagged opponents. Now giving up 75% of the loot in exchange for only 20 or 40% is not a reasonable bargain for me. I may go with 40% and 60% for flagged and unflagged SAD offers.
That sounds like a good idea. Keep the numbers high, but only high enough to be better then death for them.
We do need more info on the changes to the Outlaw Flag. I think though that the stealth bonus will be enough to use the Flag, without clarification though that will be the only thing useful.
It will come to a trade off at that point.
Reputation vs more loot
Stealth vs Initiative
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ahhhhh. Sweet page 16.
Nihimon did claim earlier that since a bandit will have the Outlaw Flag, he will just attack. So I assumed that meant SAD or not when approached.
I fail to see how that's poor sportsmanship, or anti-PVP. What is wrong with players, especially lawful players and enforcers, who kill outlaws when they see them? Why would you even play an outlaw if you don't want to be hunted by such players?
While I'll personally be giving the pass to the more Robin Hood style outlaws, I don't see how you can argue there shouldn't be Sherrif of Nottingham's who just hunt all outlaws regardless of their morality.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So to get things back on track.
1. How would you determine a PVP interaction was a “random act”?
Only the attacker would truly know if an attack was random. For anyone else it is just a theory.
2. If this is a bandit’s or other PVP players thought process, can any PVP interaction be truly called “Random”?
No, not really. It is only random from a certain point of view. Only the attacker will know if it was random or not. And it will be more not then otherwise.
3. At what Reputation Point would you assume someone was a “Griefer” and should be denied access to someone else’s settlement?
Reputation will not show if someone is a griefer.
4. Does this apply to a settlement controlling its citizens (chartered members) or does it also include visitors that may or may not frequent that settlement often?
Eh, up to the settlement managers.
5. How far outside of your immediate (political and economic) and / or geographically local interests, do you see your company exerting its influence and power?
Well for me, everywhere. Doesnt really apply.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ahhhhh. Sweet page 16.
Nihimon did claim earlier that since a bandit will have the Outlaw Flag, he will just attack. So I assumed that meant SAD or not when approached.I fail to see how that's poor sportsmanship, or anti-PVP. What is wrong with players, especially lawful players and enforcers, who kill outlaws when they see them? Why would you even play an outlaw if you don't want to be hunted by such players?
While I'll personally be giving the pass to the more Robin Hood style outlaws, I don't see how you can argue there shouldn't be Sherrif of Nottingham's who just hunt all outlaws regardless of their morality.
I have answered these, I will do it again so its in one place.
Its only poor sportsmanship or anti pvp when it is thought of as griefing or rpking.
PLEASE!!! hunt me down, it wont be fun if you do not.
Of course there should be a Sherriff, not sure how you think Im arguing against it. See above statement.
Moving on
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I'll personally be giving the pass to the more Robin Hood style outlaws
I'm curious of what GW considers a Robin Hood type Outlaw. Is it just the fact that we can offer a very low SAD offer, one so low that the traveler would be monumentally foolish not to accept? So we would be Chaotic, high rep and no shift to Evil for not killing.
I would much rather have a system where my generosity is not to the traveler I'm SADing, but to someone or something I contribute the loot to to increase both Reputation and Good.
Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, does not simply mean stealing less from the rich, letting them keep more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I'll personally be giving the pass to the more Robin Hood style outlawsI'm curious of what GW considers a Robin Hood type Outlaw. Is it just the fact that we can offer a very low SAD offer, one so low that the traveler would be monumentally foolish not to accept? So we would be Chaotic, high rep and no shift to Evil for not killing.
I would much rather have a system where my generosity is not to the traveler I'm SADing, but to someone or something I contribute the loot to to increase both Reputation and Good.
Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, does not simply mean stealing less from the rich, letting them keep more.
There is no honest way for anyone to know about the Robin Hood types. Sure you could ask the guy he gave money to, but is that an alt? Or maybe Robin Hood should give the money to pay off Andius' group to leave him alone.
Any examples that are fool proof would be nice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I'll personally be giving the pass to the more Robin Hood style outlawsI'm curious of what GW considers a Robin Hood type Outlaw. Is it just the fact that we can offer a very low SAD offer, one so low that the traveler would be monumentally foolish not to accept? So we would be Chaotic, high rep and no shift to Evil for not killing.
I would much rather have a system where my generosity is not to the traveler I'm SADing, but to someone or something I contribute the loot to to increase both Reputation and Good.
Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, does not simply mean stealing less from the rich, letting them keep more.
A Robin Hood style outlaw to me is one who only goes after evil / corrupt targets. Robin Hood wasn't robbing small amounts from everyone, he was robbing large ammounts from a group that was using the law to oppress the people.
I'm more concerned with my RP than game mechanics on this subject though.
Also I hate the phrase "steal from the rich and give to the poor." It makes him sound like a communist, aside from the fact he didn't pocket most of it. He was stealing from the corrupt government and giving back to the overtaxed population.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A Robin Hood style outlaw to me is one who only goes after evil / corrupt targets.
Personally I think the more relevant part of the "Robin Hood" label is the giving (back) to the poor part, not the selection of victims.
Also I hate the phrase "steal from the rich and give to the poor." It makes him sound like a communist, aside from the fact he didn't pocket most of it. He was stealing from the corrupt government and giving back to the overtaxed population.
In the context of the time period, the rich WERE the government, practically by definition.
(Idle curiosity tangent: I wonder how many more decades it will take before "communist" and its neighbour "socialist" stop being bad words in America.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Getting 75% instead of 25% (or say 50% if you're a flagged Outlaw) should make PK more profitable, anyway.You have your numbers wrong here, I think. If we kill the target we get 75 % and 25% is destroyed. It is now not clear what the looting bonus of the Outlaw Flag will impact.
What did you think the loot drop % was before this afternoon's news? I was thinking it was maybe 20-25% for most PvP, and maybe 40-50% for a maxed Outlaw. So now it's 75% across the board. It seems like PK is more profitable than it was this morning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What did you think the loot drop % was before this afternoon's news? I was thinking it was maybe 20-25% for most PvP, and maybe 40-50% for a maxed Outlaw. So now it's 75% across the board. It seems like PK is more profitable than it was this morning.
That was my impression as well. I may have to go into banditry after all!
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Goblin Squad Member
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What did you think the loot drop % was before this afternoon's news? I was thinking it was maybe 20-25% for most PvP, and maybe 40-50% for a maxed Outlaw. So now it's 75% across the board. It seems like PK is more profitable than it was this morning.That was my impression as well. I may have to go into banditry after all!
Bandit-hunting is where the loot will be. Top of the food chain.
Or maybe bandit-hunter-hunting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious of what GW considers a Robin Hood type Outlaw.
I'd guess chaotic goods. Or I'd find a quote: "The Outlaw flag is for players who want to rob other players, commit acts of banditry, etc. It can be used by chaotic evil players to be brigands, or by chaotic good players to be Robin Hood-style robbers."
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Goblin Squad Member
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A Robin Hood style outlaw to me is one who only goes after evil / corrupt targets.Personally I think the more relevant part of the "Robin Hood" label is the giving (back) to the poor part, not the selection of victims.
Also I hate the phrase "steal from the rich and give to the poor." It makes him sound like a communist, aside from the fact he didn't pocket most of it. He was stealing from the corrupt government and giving back to the overtaxed population.In the context of the time period, the rich WERE the government, practically by definition.
(Idle curiosity tangent: I wonder how many more decades it will take before "communist" and its neighbour "socialist" stop being bad words in America.)
I guess it's matter of opinion. If he's robbing hard working but honest merchants through violent means it certainly makes me a lot less likely to align myself with him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A Robin Hood style outlaw to me is one who only goes after evil / corrupt targets.Personally I think the more relevant part of the "Robin Hood" label is the giving (back) to the poor part, not the selection of victims.
Also I hate the phrase "steal from the rich and give to the poor." It makes him sound like a communist, aside from the fact he didn't pocket most of it. He was stealing from the corrupt government and giving back to the overtaxed population.In the context of the time period, the rich WERE the government, practically by definition.
(Idle curiosity tangent: I wonder how many more decades it will take before "communist" and its neighbour "socialist" stop being bad words in America.)
The rich were the government or the church lol.
(Tangent: When a country can do either forms of government without it being an actual dictatorship.)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What did you think the loot drop % was before this afternoon's news? I was thinking it was maybe 20-25% for most PvP, and maybe 40-50% for a maxed Outlaw. So now it's 75% across the board. It seems like PK is more profitable than it was this morning.That was my impression as well. I may have to go into banditry after all!
Bandit-hunting is where the loot will be. Top of the food chain.
Or maybe bandit-hunter-hunting.
Bandit-hunter-hunter-hunting? It's turtles all the way down...
Keep in mind that lone-wolf hunters of all stripes have to cover their own losses; if you become affiliated with a powerful settlement, equipment expenses should be subsidized.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Full-time banditry will probably never be a very profitable profession. It involves too much risk and waiting, and people learn how to avoid it. Even in games with 100% loot drop it's really not that profitable.
I mean it's great that we have it but it more for roleplayers and opportunists than anything else.
The 75% lootable items doesn't even tempt me to go bandit. I'll get it off the murderers I kill as a champion anyway.
Raiding is where the profits are at. Successful raiders make a lot of money. I've gotten a lot of resources from raiding enemy towns in Darkfall, and found a lot of great stuff scavenging abandoned settlements in Wurm.
If I were an outlaw I'd be worrying less about the SAD mechanic, and asking more about what you will be able to steal when you raid someone's settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everything will be used to make a profit.
Right but some of it will be like working at McDonalds while some of it will be like running Microsoft.
People get into banditry because they enjoy it. Not because it gives a high hourly wage.
If all you do is camp roads the average gatherer/crafter/trader will make many times as much coin as you do in an average day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Exactly, but every opportunity will be taken when they arise.
I will do the banditry because it will be the best chance for small scale pvp. The large scale wars will be fun too, which is what alts are for.
Needless to say, I plan to be involved in any aspect my play time allows.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I can picture myself doing some organized privateering for my settlement/kingdom now and again against rival organizations using outlaw flag to disturb their operations and exploit the situation if they have cut down on guards or patrols but I don't think I could dedicate myself to being a full-time bandit.
I have a feeling it is going to be a very tough way of life. Some of the self-confessed bandits here seem to have a lot of dedication and I wish you the best.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Andius
You are correct in that players that play Bandits or Pirates in other games, don't play them to make their characters money. Adventuring, Trade, Crafting, Harvesting are all better sources of income.
So even when we say "It's all about the gold", that isn't the reality. It is all about the thrill. Its the risk that is the reward, and the chance that the "big score" is in the pockets / cargo of the next victim.
About 8 months ago I rolled a new toon on EVE, to test out the the new Criminal system. I was a High sec, ore thief / ninja looter just before the changes. I flagged up suspect and ran a circuit (about 10 asteroid belts in one system) for 6 months. I could make about 1 to 2 million isk in loot / salvage in about 2 hours of play. One day I looted a wreck and scored a Pirate Faction Implant, which easily sold for 15 million isk. I also lost just one ship in that 6 months or so, and was only locked on three times.
I'm hoping PFO captures that feel in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could make about 1 to 2 million isk in loot / salvage in about 2 hours of play. One day I looted a wreck and scored a Pirate Faction Implant, which easily sold for 15 million isk. I also lost just one ship in that 6 months or so, and was only locked on three times.
All things considered that is an incredibly small amount of ISK.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could make about 1 to 2 million isk in loot / salvage in about 2 hours of play. One day I looted a wreck and scored a Pirate Faction Implant, which easily sold for 15 million isk. I also lost just one ship in that 6 months or so, and was only locked on three times.All things considered that is an incredibly small amount of ISK.
For a noob in a starter frigate, not really that bad. But, I remember back when making 2 or 3 million isk used to take a week of game play (10 hours or so).
But, you prove my point. It wasn't about the money, it's about the thrill of the risk. Sure I could jump into my mission runner "Main" and make 40 - 50 million isk in the same 2 hours and not have the slightest risk of losing my ship, but it isn't as fun as the chance for Hi Sec PVP in small ship classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A Robin Hood style outlaw to me is one who only goes after evil / corrupt targets.Personally I think the more relevant part of the "Robin Hood" label is the giving (back) to the poor part, not the selection of victims.
Couldn't disagree more.
In fact, I'd say it's likely the opposite is true, that it didn't matter as much who got the money as who it was taken from.
But then again, I'm working from my understanding based on Robin Hood in American culture.
(Idle curiosity tangent: I wonder how many more decades it will take before "communist" and its neighbour "socialist" stop being bad words in America.)
Probably not until Americans all forget about Mass killings under Communist regimes. Personally, I'd prefer we never forget...
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Goblin Squad Member
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(Idle curiosity tangent: I wonder how many more decades it will take before "communist" and its neighbour "socialist" stop being bad words in America.)Probably not until Americans all forget about Mass killings under Communist regimes. Personally, I'd prefer we never forget...
@ Tuoweit
Probably not until Socialist / Communist leaders live in single room homes and eat rice and beans like the rest of their people, instead of living in mansions, flying private jets, and eating caviar, lobster and steak six times a week.
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Goblin Squad Member
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on a tangent but on task topic, I hope any social group, can declare war on any other. Previously I had only considered settlement vs settlement warfare, but if the UnNamed (as an example) are hiding in our wood line and stealing from our merchants...I want to be able to use the benefits of our organization and size to declare war on their company...getting the benefits of tactics and formation use to counter their flag bonuses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the Blog thread:
lol. Your idea of a "reasonable SAD" will just drive more into "Millions for defence, not one copper for tribute!".Your rep will tank. If that does not regulate your behavior somehow, and in fact causes it to unbalance banditry, I am sure that the mechanics will be adjusted.
No, our reputation remains the same if the SAD is rejected. Our loot is 75% if you reject and lose.
I laugh every time you guys write that slogan of yours. Maybe 1 in a 1000 will take that stance and maybe only once or twice before they realize that it sounds better in theory than it works out in practice.
If you are doing it and no one else is, you will be one if the poorest merchants on the server.
[--]
Since this thread is more on that topic I post here instead.
An individual with the idea of never accepting SAD will not make any difference. A whole settlement/kingdom doing it might make a whole lot of difference. It might make it so that bandits decide to look for greener pastures at the other end of the world map.
Consistently refusing SADs in combination with barring entry to settlements may lead to a situation where bandits get plenty of loot, but no gold (since SADs are refused) and nowhere in comfortable range to sell of what they have looted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can only SAD an unflagged or flagged target if he has not made it probable to attack you first. Stealth will be great. Not complete and not foolproof. The reps will tank if "marks" use their brains.
I don't understand... do you mean 'marks' might attack the bandits? Then the 'marks' would be the ones to suffer rep loss.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see bandits having to resort to toadies, quislings, and lickspittles--okay, alts--to deal with settlements if they become well-enough known to be banned, but still have need of particular places for specific reasons. Imagine the churn when people figure out who's helping whom, and ban the bandit-friend.
If part of commercial transactions is based on trading skill or suchlike, churning throwaway-alts may not be helpful for profit-maximisation, either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A whole settlement/kingdom doing it might make a whole lot of difference. It might make it so that bandits decide to look for greener pastures at the other end of the world map.
My expectation is that I will always be traveling in force whenever transporting valuable goods. My stance is geared towards ensuring that the only Bandits who are able to get anything from me are also dedicating a similar amount of force to their effort. I generally expect that the cost/benefit analysis of taking my stuff will lead them to conclude that it's not effective unless they also have a specific goal of weakening me, since they're not going to be making easy money.
The reps will tank if "marks" use their brains.
The only way the Outlaws lose Reputation is if they attack the Mark before offering a SAD. I don't think the Marks have any control over that.
Or am I missing something?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Robin Hood was a socialist. Deal with it!
I see him more as a Low Taxes, Small Government crusader.
I can see him now stealing the $444 million Detroit is spending building an Ice Hockey Rink and giving that money to the people who are going to lose their pensions when Detroit goes bankrupt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I generally expect that the cost/benefit analysis of taking my stuff will lead them to conclude that it's not effective unless they also have a specific goal of weakening me, since they're not going to be making easy money.
It's too bad there's no equivalent of morale to break. Once an attack starts, only death--actually the returning of someone to his bind-point--will affect the combat.
Since death is "so cheap", there'll be little if any incentive for either side to stop fighting before they're all dead, and economic effects only impact at death as well. You're not wearing out your weapon or armour during the fight.
Severe wounds don't matter, crippling may matter, but we've yet to see how badly, so it seems it'll be all-death-all-the-time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A whole settlement/kingdom doing it might make a whole lot of difference. It might make it so that bandits decide to look for greener pastures at the other end of the world map.My expectation is that I will always be traveling in force whenever transporting valuable goods. My stance is geared towards ensuring that the only Bandits who are able to get anything from me are also dedicating a similar amount of force to their effort. I generally expect that the cost/benefit analysis of taking my stuff will lead them to conclude that it's not effective unless they also have a specific goal of weakening me, since they're not going to be making easy money.
The reps will tank if "marks" use their brains.The only way the Outlaws lose Reputation is if they attack the Mark before offering a SAD. I don't think the Marks have any control over that.
Or am I missing something?
With the proposed mechanics, only fools will not be proactive against bandits. Whether that is through co operation or single, personal expense will be up to them. If traders choose to be fools, then I leave them to the bandits. They will soon be out of business at 60% equivalent SADs, though...