Disintegrating vampires, dust or mist?

[Buri]

I would argue the dust comes first since the effect is marked as instantaneous. Nothing is spread out over rounds like with suffocation. The same notation of time does not exist for a vampire becoming gaseous. It's just a straight, if this happens then this happens. The event that triggered the 0 HP has already come and gone. Then the vampire has an entry for what happens once that event occurs.

[ArmouredMonk13]

And I would argue that the transmutation has turned the vampire to dust, and is now no longer a vampire. And then someone would argue that the vampire is now merely broken into octillions of pieces and is still a vampire. And then someone would argue that this isn't true because the pieces are so small. And then eventually it would get back to the arguement that vampires are still vampires when turned to dust. Am I the only one sensing a pattern here?

[ShadowcatX]

Or they could make the argument that the mist isn't the vampire and ergo cannot be turned to dust.

[ArmouredMonk13]

True, but still sensing a pattern, just one that goes 2 ways.

[Drachasor]

Buri wrote:

Attacks are attacks. That spell even makes a ranged touch "attack." Trying to say that's physical attacks only is trying to imply something it doesn't say.

Special effects are often not what the game means when it refers to attacks (though they sometimes are). While Disintegrate involves a normal attack, the turning into dust is a special effect.

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

And I would argue that the transmutation has turned the vampire to dust, and is now no longer a vampire. And then someone would argue that the vampire is now merely broken into octillions of pieces and is still a vampire. And then someone would argue that this isn't true because the pieces are so small. And then eventually it would get back to the arguement that vampires are still vampires when turned to dust. Am I the only one sensing a pattern here?

Turning something into a chair with an instantaneous effect would not cause it to retain its creature type or other special characteristics unless it explicitly said so.

Though to be clear, Disintegrate says it completely disintegrates targets leaving only a trace of fine dust. Which is the equivalent of saying the target is totally destroyed and there's some inert byproduct left over.

[ShadowcatX]

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

True, but still sensing a pattern, just one that goes 2 ways.

You mean, it is almost like this isn't clear in the RAW and requires the DM to make a call?

[Buri]

Drachasor wrote:

Turning something into a chair with an instantaneous effect would not cause it to retain its creature type or other special characteristics unless it explicitly said so.

Though to be clear, Disintegrate says it completely disintegrates targets leaving only a trace of fine dust. Which is the equivalent of saying the target is totally destroyed and there's some inert byproduct left over.

Nothing about disintegrate deals with creature types. Only polymorph effects deal with adding or removing abilities, specifically, related to type, or, form as the text in the magic chapter likes to say. Disintegrate is not a polymorph effect. While the type of the spell does allow for these things nothing about it removes abilities or stop healing effects the creature may have. While being at, or below, 0 hit points and a pile of dust would be the end of most creatures, vampires have specific attacks that kill them and have a clause for what happens when they reach 0 HP.

Would you say disintegrate would stop a tarrasque's regeneration because it's a pile of dust, and, therefore, loses its regeneration ability regardless of what the ability says? I doubt it. Likewise, nothing about the spell removes abilities related to form let alone the gaseous ability of vampires when they reach 0 HP.

[ArmouredMonk13]

And lo and behold, a circle going back to the same thing posted above. Pattern theory still sound so crazy?

[Drachasor]

Buri wrote:

Drachasor wrote:

Turning something into a chair with an instantaneous effect would not cause it to retain its creature type or other special characteristics unless it explicitly said so.

Though to be clear, Disintegrate says it completely disintegrates targets leaving only a trace of fine dust. Which is the equivalent of saying the target is totally destroyed and there's some inert byproduct left over.

Nothing about disintegrate deals with creature types. Only polymorph effects deal with adding or removing abilities, specifically, related to type, or, form as the text in the magic chapter likes to say. Disintegrate is not a polymorph effect. While the type of the spell does allow for these things nothing about it removes abilities or stop healing effects the creature may have. While being at, or below, 0 hit points and a pile of dust would be the end of most creatures, vampires have specific attacks that kill them and have a clause for what happens when they reach 0 HP.

Would you say disintegrate would stop a tarrasque's regeneration because it's a pile of dust, and, therefore, loses its regeneration ability regardless of what the ability says? I doubt it. Likewise, nothing about the spell removes abilities related to form let alone the gaseous ability of vampires when they reach 0 HP.

Not true. Any spell that ends existence naturally removes a lot of things like that. When a creature becomes an object (e.g. dead) or non-existent (also dead, but no body), it naturally loses any abilities it had. This is obvious, much like death in general.

A Tarrasque explicitly says it cannot die by any means. It's broad and open ended. The Vampire, on the other hand, just says most things can't kill it and it does not say the list that follows is definitive -- especially important since it first immediately references Fast Healing. So there's are not similar enough situations.

[Ravingdork]

Not to mention that the tarrasque is completely immune to rays, making Buri's point somewhat moot.

[Democratus]

Since the dust created by Disintegrate can be used for Resurrection - it isn't just dust. It is the body of whatever is slain by it.

Therefore the Vampire reduced to dust would still be Vampire remains and would, therefore, turn to mist afterwards.

[Drachasor]

Democratus wrote:

Since the dust created by Disintegrate can be used for Resurrection - it isn't just dust. It is the body of whatever is slain by it.

Therefore the Vampire reduced to dust would still be Vampire remains and would, therefore, turn to mist afterwards.

The remains of a vampire is not a creature.

[Democratus]

Drachasor wrote:

Democratus wrote:

Since the dust created by Disintegrate can be used for Resurrection - it isn't just dust. It is the body of whatever is slain by it.

Therefore the Vampire reduced to dust would still be Vampire remains and would, therefore, turn to mist afterwards.

The remains of a vampire is not a creature.

Irrelevant.

[Drachasor]

Democratus wrote:

Drachasor wrote:

Democratus wrote:

Since the dust created by Disintegrate can be used for Resurrection - it isn't just dust. It is the body of whatever is slain by it.

Therefore the Vampire reduced to dust would still be Vampire remains and would, therefore, turn to mist afterwards.

The remains of a vampire is not a creature.

Irrelevant.

Yes it is, because vampire remains do not have the property you need here.

[ShadowcatX]

For the amount of discussion here there's an amazing lack of FAQ clicking. . . Get to work peoples. :)

[Artanthos]

ShadowcatX wrote:

For the amount of discussion here there's an amazing lack of FAQ clicking. . . Get to work peoples. :)

It is such an edge case that it is probably best just to allow table variation.

[ShadowcatX]

Artanthos wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

For the amount of discussion here there's an amazing lack of FAQ clicking. . . Get to work peoples. :)

It is such an edge case that it is probably best just to allow table variation.

That was my opinion before this generated 60+ posts. Still, there's no reason the FAQ can't specifically address how corner cases can arise and in those corner cases DMs should just feel free to rule.

[Waterhammer]

The GM is probably going to want to rule that the vampire turns to mist and escapes. Recurring villains are way cool.

Players may not see it this way, so much.

[Pathfinder Design Team]

FAQ: paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9r5p

Vampire: Does casting disintegrate on a vampire permanently kill it?

No. This is a matter of "which special exception has priority?" As the vampire monster entry states how a vampire can be permanently killed (and disintegrate is not one of those ways), and disintegrate doesn't state "this can permanently kill a creature that can only be killed under special circumstances," the rules in the vampire monster entry have priority. Reducing a vampire's hp to 0 with disintegrate just forces a vampire into mist form, at which point it retreats to its coffin.

[ID-TheDemonOfElru]

Lets not forget under Undead Traits they are "immune to effects requiring a Fortitude save unless the effect also affects objects".

Since Disintegrate comes under the category of Fort effects that can damage/harm objects then any corporeal undead is fair game. In the majority of cases undead would be pooched vs a Disintegrate spell with their low Fort saves and lack of applicable CON modifier to said save so its a solid tactic.

However - Vampires, Liches and certain Incorporeal Undead that have the ability to Rejuvenate all have special clauses relating to being reduced to 0 HP which make them exceptions to effects such as these. As the Vampiric Mist specifically says the Vampire is immune to further damage in this form all a character has to do is follow the mist back to its coffin (which it is forced to do less it be destroyed), there you can finish off the helpless bloudsucker which is trying to rejuvenate itself. Easy solution.

Liches however is a different ball game but same effect with the exception their new body is likely being reformed in some heavily warded, trapped locale infested with legions of servitors and guardians faaaar from where you probably fought it. But least temporarily its out of your hair (until it comes looking for revenge that is)....lol

[LazarX]

Artanthos wrote:

MechE_ wrote:

Generally, the specific rule should over-ride the general rule. In this case, I would call the general rule "Disintegrate turns creatures reduced to zero hit points to dust" and the specific rule is "vampires are turn to mist when reduced to zero hit points."

So vampires turn to mist when reduced to zero hit points by a disintegrate. That said, i would probably narate it as the vampire crumbling to dust, and then a mist rising from the dust - I mean, why not?

I would rule in the opposite direction.

The general rule is that vampires turn to mist when reduced to 0 hit points. Disintegrate overrules this with the specific effect of turning the vampire to dust.

The general rule is that creatures killed by disintegrate turned to dust. Vampire overrules this with the specific effect of turning gaseous at zero hit points.

Raw is like a good sword, frequently it turns both ways.

So end result: GM call.

[Darth Grall]

It's not a Gm call tho in pfs... they actually FAQ' d it. Home games rule 0 takes hold, but as it stands, it just won't work.

[ShadowcatX]

LazarX wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

MechE_ wrote:

Generally, the specific rule should over-ride the general rule. In this case, I would call the general rule "Disintegrate turns creatures reduced to zero hit points to dust" and the specific rule is "vampires are turn to mist when reduced to zero hit points."

So vampires turn to mist when reduced to zero hit points by a disintegrate. That said, i would probably narate it as the vampire crumbling to dust, and then a mist rising from the dust - I mean, why not?

I would rule in the opposite direction.

The general rule is that vampires turn to mist when reduced to 0 hit points. Disintegrate overrules this with the specific effect of turning the vampire to dust.

The general rule is that creatures killed by disintegrate turned to dust. Vampire overrules this with the specific effect of turning gaseous at zero hit points.

Raw is like a good sword, frequently it turns both ways.

So end result: GM call.

Did you spend 30 seconds to look at the "Answered in FAQ" tag? Or the post 2 above yours?

/reads you post. . .

Nope.

[Psyren]

Disintegrate -> Dust -> Mist makes the most sense to me.