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Hello, basically the question is: "When you use Wish/Limited Wish to duplicate a lower level spell, do you use the casting time of Wish/Limited Wish (1 Standard Action) or the casting time of the spell being duplicated."
The Range, Target, Effect, Area, and Duration are all "see text". But the listed casting time is 1 standard action. This leads me to believe that I could use Wish/Limited Wish to cast Summon Monster V or even something like Hallow as a standard Action.
Thanks in advance.
The spell you are casting is wish (limited wish). Use its rules for casting times, material/verbal/somatic components, etc.
So yes, 1 standard action to cast wish can reduce the time to get what might normally take a full round (or more) to get using the normal spell.
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To be clear on the issue, the argument is that you can avoid long casting times by using wish instead, and that Wish Duplicates the spell effect, but not the spell.
In the example given, you can cast blood money, then wish, then spells that take longer than one round like symbol spells (or even binding spells I presume) because you would not be subject to the casting time.
My position is that wish duplicates the spell. All of the spell, including casting time.
Otherwise it would be "Duplicates the effects of the spell" rather than duplicate the spell.
Wish says that you have to provide all of the components for the spell you're duplicating. So that means the casting time is increased to that of the spell you're trying to pull off.
Casting time isn't a component.
The meta-question: Which is more fun?
Personally, I think it's generally more fun for the Game Master to allow players to do what they want to do. So I view that one should err on the side of permissiveness. Of course, if the players want to use Wish for a one-round Greater Planar Ally, this means that the BBEG can pull the same trick, and he's usually of higher level and therefore has more wishes at his disposal.
Wish says that you have to provide all of the components for the spell you're duplicating. So that means the casting time is increased to that of the spell you're trying to pull off.
Wish says literally nothing of the sort. Here's what is actually says:
"When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 25,000 gp diamond component for this spell)."
So yes, if your spell costs more then 10,000 GP, Wish is gonna ask you to pony up the full cost of that spell in addition to the 25,000 GP Wish wants from you.
Nothing in that sentence implies in anyway an increased casting time.
It says it duplicates the spell.
Last time I looked casting time is part of the spell.
If it said it duplicated the effects of the spell, sure.
It doesn't.
Last time I looked spells generate their effect when they finish casting. And the effect of Wish is to duplicate a spell. Which means Wish generates the effect of duplicated the spell when you finish casting it as a standard action.
I thought you said that spells did everything at the beginning...
Keeps changing based on the argument...
I don't see that as inconsistent with what he was arguing.. The component at the beginning.. the Effect at the end. No inconsistencies with what he wrote previously.
I don't see that as inconsistent with what he was arguing.. The component at the beginning.. the Effect at the end. No inconsistencies with what he wrote previously.I thought you said that spells did everything at the beginning...
Keeps changing based on the argument...
Thank you! I'm relieved to know that it's just Ciretose that doesn't properly read my post.
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I don't see that as inconsistent with what he was arguing.. The component at the beginning.. the Effect at the end. No inconsistencies with what he wrote previously.I thought you said that spells did everything at the beginning...
Keeps changing based on the argument...
No, he consistently reads the spell in the way that best works for his arguement...
No I've consistently read spells that way even when it would be harmful, such as losing all your material components when casting is interrupted, since I believe material components are used when you begin casting the spell. Sorry, but I make sure all my readings are consistent with each other.
No, he consistently reads the spell in the way that best works for his arguement...I don't see that as inconsistent with what he was arguing.. The component at the beginning.. the Effect at the end. No inconsistencies with what he wrote previously.I thought you said that spells did everything at the beginning...
Keeps changing based on the argument...
Aren't you guilty of the same thing?
Aren't you guilty of the same thing?No, he consistently reads the spell in the way that best works for his arguement...I don't see that as inconsistent with what he was arguing.. The component at the beginning.. the Effect at the end. No inconsistencies with what he wrote previously.I thought you said that spells did everything at the beginning...
Keeps changing based on the argument...
I think he's more guilty of just plain not reading the spells. But I would never try to argue something that the spell didn't actually say. That's why I you know... quote the spells in all my posts, unlike some other people.
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Am I?
Because I see someone who arguing that what they are defending is broken and shouldn't be allowed...but it is allowed...because they read into the rule things that aren't there about order of completion.
My position has been consistent throughout. I don't think that spell was written to be used to be able to cast high cost, long duration casting spells.
Anzyr's position is it shouldn't be, but because of how he decides to assume things work that aren't explained, it does.
Your position...I have no idea what your position is, frankly.
I think my position is the most tenable...
Wish says that you have to provide all of the components for the spell you're duplicating. So that means the casting time is increased to that of the spell you're trying to pull off.
This is flat out false. The only mention of components in the entire wish spell description is related to spells with components over 10k.
Also, as already noted casting time is not a component (nor is range, area of effect/targets, duration, spell level, school, saving throw or spell resistance).
The components of a wish spell are:
Components V, S, M (diamond worth 25,000 gp)
Plus based on the spell text additional cost if mimicking a spell with a material component cost of >10k.
It says it duplicates the spell.Last time I looked casting time is part of the spell.
If it said it duplicated the effects of the spell, sure.
It doesn't.
If it duplicates a spell to the exact requirements than it also duplicates the need for all material components and costs of said spell - even those of less than 10k. The fact the spell calls this out is an implication that that other factors of a spell, casting time, etc, and components costing less than 10k are not a factor for the wish spell.
It has a casting time of 1 standard action. I am assuming nothing other than what the spell says.
Your position is unenable, because it has no basis in the rules. Everyone in the thread except you and LazarX consider it perfectly clear so it is not merely "my assumption". So if its not my assumption thats wrong with the spell... have you considered that maybe... just maybe its *yours*?
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How does it imply those are not a factor.
It duplicates the spell. The over 10k factor is a limiting factor saying "You can't use this to get around expensive material components"
If it was only duplicating the effects of the spell but not the spell itself, it would say "Duplicates the effects"
@Anzyr - Untenable is the word you were looking for.
And once again, I point out you are arguing for a position you don't think should be true, because you think it would be broken.
Think about that.
The rules are the rules. I'll argue the rules say what the rules say. My personal feelings on them are irrelevant. Many people would say that SLAs being used to enter PRCs early is broken, should that change what the rules say?
How does it imply those are not a factor.
It duplicates the spell. The over 10k factor is a limiting factor saying "You can't use this to get around expensive material components"
If it was only duplicating the effects of the spell but not the spell itself, it would say "Duplicates the effects"
@Anzyr - Untenable is the word you were looking for.
And once again, I point out you are arguing for a position you don't think should be true, because you think it would be broken.
Think about that.
If it duplicates a spell that has a material component cost of, say, 1k, does it duplicate the requirement for spending the 1k material component cost on the spell? That is what a perfect clone copy of the spell would require right?
So is the wording about costs over 10k just unnecessary text since any component requirement (from 0 gold to 10 million gold is required as part of the duplication)? Or does this imply that if the material component of the duplicated spell is less than 10k then that cost can be omitted?
Am I?
Because I see someone who arguing that what they are defending is broken and shouldn't be allowed...but it is allowed...because they read into the rule things that aren't there about order of completion.
My position has been consistent throughout. I don't think that spell was written to be used to be able to cast high cost, long duration casting spells.
Anzyr's position is it shouldn't be, but because of how he decides to assume things work that aren't explained, it does.
Your position...I have no idea what your position is, frankly.
I think my position is the most tenable...
That's a lot of words for a yes. :) </mild mannered snark>
My position, if unclear before, boils down to a no for blood money on spells longer than a standard.. and a yes for blood money to be used on wish. My reasoning is in one of the two threads on this.
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Wish say: "Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools."
Agreed? Ok
But "Summon Monster VIII" with a Casting time of 1 standard action is almost a Quickened Summon Monster VIII [actually a quickened SM couldn't even exist as you can't quicken a spell with a CT of 1 full round], so, the question is:
"Wish can duplicate a modified version of a spell if the level, after applying the modifiers, would be higher than 8th for a wizard spell, 7th for a non wizard spell, ecc.?"
Personally I would be against it.
The problem then is adjudicating what is the modifier that reducing the casting time would apply to the spell level.
But the real problem is that the Blood money spell has no cap limit to the value of the components it can create, so people try to push it to create infinite wealth.
It is a fist level spell. It hasn't that kind of power.
An "almost" quicken that costs you 25,000 GP. Seems perfectly fine. Please note that Quicken can Quicken a spell with a casting time of 1 Full round action as below:
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."
As to Blood Money not having cap, yes it is pretty overpowered.
I think the debate over blood money has opened up some other interesting questions that need be answered. "When is the material component used up?" and "How long does a Wish Spell take to cast if it's duplicating multi-round spells?"
Sometimes, it's good to debate the problem child spells.
How does it imply those are not a factor.
It duplicates the spell.
No, that's the one thing we know it doesn't do. It explicitly doesn't do this, because it states that you only need to provide the material components if they're over the 10,000 gp threshhold, and because it comes with a material component of its own that would not be needed if it duplicated the target spell exactly. Otherwise I could Wish for a Maze spell effect at no cost.
Now that we agree that it does not duplicate the target spell exactly, the question at hand is whether casting time, like range, is something that is duplicated, or whether casting time, like material components, is not duplicated.
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The rules are the rules. I'll argue the rules say what the rules say. My personal feelings on them are irrelevant. Many people would say that SLAs being used to enter PRCs early is broken, should that change what the rules say?
Or the rules are the rules, the way you are reading them is wrong and we both get the outcome you claim you want.
The SLA rules were clarified by a Dev last year as the opposite of what they currently are, then changed by FAQ with an addendum that they will keep looking at it to see if there are problems, so long as people actually produce playtest evidence.
So yes, if it turns out if it is broken, they should change what the rules say.
That is EXACTLY the right approach.
You are arguing something is broken, and should be treated as broken because...really, I have no idea why.
If Blood Money acts as the Dev says it does, and not you, no exploit.
If Wish isn't exploitable as you describe, no exploit.
So how are you on the side arguing for what you say is an exploit.
That is like saying "I know he is innocent, but technically I think since it could be read differently, we should shoot him."
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It duplicates the spell.Per this interpretation, you are actually casting the duplicated spell, because it duplicates the casting. That means two AOOs, two concentration checks, requiring enough wisdom/charisma to cast divine spells, etc.
I disagree.
It takes 1 standard action to cast Wish, and the effects of the duplicated spell take affect. That's how I've always run it and interpreted it.
Nope. Per this interpretation you are able to use the wish spell to duplicate a spell. The wish spell becomes the other spell because the spell is duplicating the spell.
By your interpretation you can instantly create a simulacrum.
Which seems more absurd to you?
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How does it imply those are not a factor.
It duplicates the spell.
No, that's the one thing we know it doesn't do. It explicitly doesn't do this, because it states that you only need to provide the material components if they're over the 10,000 gp threshhold, and because it comes with a material component of its own that would not be needed if it duplicated the target spell exactly. Otherwise I could Wish for a Maze spell effect at no cost.
Now that we agree that it does not duplicate the target spell exactly, the question at hand is whether casting time, like range, is something that is duplicated, or whether casting time, like material components, is not duplicated.
The exact wording of the spell is that is Duplicate any "X".
If you wish for maze, you pay with a 25k Diamond. If you cast Maze...well....that would not require 25k diamond unless you used wish...
By your interpretation I can create a demiplane as a standard action.
It duplicates the spell.Per this interpretation, you are actually casting the duplicated spell, because it duplicates the casting. That means two AOOs, two concentration checks, requiring enough wisdom/charisma to cast divine spells, etc.
I disagree.
It takes 1 standard action to cast Wish, and the effects of the duplicated spell take affect. That's how I've always run it and interpreted it.
Nope. Per this interpretation you are able to use the wish spell to duplicate a spell. The wish spell becomes the other spell because the spell is duplicating the spell.
By your interpretation you can instantly create a simulacrum.
Which seems more absurd to you?
Let's see, wish is 2 levels higher, meaning 4 caster levels higher.
Wish is the iconic spell of reality bending magic.Wish costs an additional 25k gp.
I don't see the problem here.
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An "almost" quicken that costs you 25,000 GP. Seems perfectly fine. Please note that Quicken can Quicken a spell with a casting time of 1 Full round action as below:
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."
As to Blood Money not having cap, yes it is pretty overpowered.
Are there that many Sorcerers or Wizards out there with a high enough STR to do this, really?
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Are there that many Sorcerers or Wizards out there with a high enough STR to do this, really?An "almost" quicken that costs you 25,000 GP. Seems perfectly fine. Please note that Quicken can Quicken a spell with a casting time of 1 Full round action as below:
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."
As to Blood Money not having cap, yes it is pretty overpowered.
Only with some rather extreme theorycrafting and hundreds of thousands of gold better spent elsewhere.
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Are there that many Sorcerers or Wizards out there with a high enough STR to do this, really?An "almost" quicken that costs you 25,000 GP. Seems perfectly fine. Please note that Quicken can Quicken a spell with a casting time of 1 Full round action as below:
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."
As to Blood Money not having cap, yes it is pretty overpowered.
He also argued that he could get temporary bonuses up to 51, and since it only rendered him unconscious to go less the 0, he test drove exactly how much strength he had.
He can explain it to you in great detail...
If you wish for maze, you pay with a 25k Diamond. If you cast Maze...well....that would not require 25k diamond unless you used wish...
Which means that wishing for a Maze is not an exact duplicate of Maze. Quod erat demonstrandum. "Duplicate" a spell means duplicate the effect, not duplicate the casting requirements.
By your interpretation I can create a demiplane as a standard action.
I'm cool with that. You just spent 24,500 gold pieces (because Wish takes care of the material component) and a spell level to speed up the creation process.
But that's actually a separate argument. My argument is simply that nowhere is it even implied that "duplicating" a spell implies duplicating the casting requirements. In fact, it's expressly stated that "duplicating" a spell does not duplicate the casting requirements. So, the rules-as-written rather directly shut down the argument you've been trying to make.
A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
But a spell that take 12 hours to cast can become a standard action.
Sure...that makes sense...
Shrug. Magic. A 9th-level spell, and "the most powerful [arcane] spell" in the game. I have no problem with a 9th-level spell being more powerful than a feat.
Where are people getting the idea that you have to cast the spell you duplicate with Wish/Limited Wish? It doesn't say that anywhere in the spell description. The wish spell duplicates the spell. Yes, you can cast a spell with a cast time of 8 hours with 1 Standard Action. Yes you can cast Simulacrum with 1 Standard Action. Yes, you can cast Raise Dead/Resurrection with 1 Standard Action. This is the way it has been since 3.5, and there have been no rules changes that would affect this whatsoever. This is not really FAQ worthy. Comparing a Level 7 or Level 9 spell to a feat doesn't make sense. Of course the spell is going to be more powerful.
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following .
A spell's effect manifests when you finish casting it. The effect of Wish is to duplicate the spell you choose. If it worked outside of normal spellcasting rules, it would specifically say so.
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Are there that many Sorcerers or Wizards out there with a high enough STR to do this, really?An "almost" quicken that costs you 25,000 GP. Seems perfectly fine. Please note that Quicken can Quicken a spell with a casting time of 1 Full round action as below:
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened."
As to Blood Money not having cap, yes it is pretty overpowered.
He also argued that he could get temporary bonuses up to 51, and since it only rendered him unconscious to go less the 0, he test drove exactly how much strength he had.
He can explain it to you in great detail...
Wouldn't being rendered unconscious preclude finishing the Wish spell? {Completely setting aside the fact that RAW only truly matters in PFS, and well, 17th level isn't happening...]
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If you wish for maze, you pay with a 25k Diamond. If you cast Maze...well....that would not require 25k diamond unless you used wish...
You spend 25k to cast wish, if you use it for raise dead or cure light wounds.
Wish then can be used to duplicate other spells, not to improve them dramatically over the original version....