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->This<- thread was recently posted in General Discussion forum discussing the lack of material for high-level games. In the conversation James Jacobs said this:
But one way to help us make the decision to print more high level stuff (something I want to do!) would be to let us know.
So who do we talk to about getting some support for high-level play?
I have made my arguments and thrown out numbers in the past so I will not repeat them here but this seems to be a major lacking area in the Pathfinder brand. Please, Paizo, let's do something about this.
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Now, before anyone has a knee-jerk reaction please read-on.
This topic is not an attack on the developers in any way. There has been some support in the Roleplaying Game line for high-level play in high-level threats and whatnot, but from what I can tell that is about where it ends. Also, there are several factors involved in why Paizo runs the Modules line the way they do and I do not intend to excessively criticize business practices I am not privy to.
Third party groups have tried to fill the void and certainly no offense to third party groups but quality is spotty unless you know just where to go and then, options still remain limited.
Also, this topic is not a place to yell that high-level play is wrongbadfun because those arguments are irrelevant. Everyone has their own preferences and I enjoy all three tiers of play equally. The arguments have been made already so let's focus on my point above.
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So far, for PFRPG you have:
The Witchwar Legacy (level 17-19)
Tomb of the Iron Medusa (level 14-16)
The Moonscar (level 16-18)
In the Pipeline
Warderns of the Reborn Forge (level 12-18)
Plus, the last instalment (sometimes last two) of each Adventure Path.
I'm not complaining that you want more; i'm just setting a baseline for anyone coming into this thread.
Seeing as I buy more Paizo stuff to read than I do to play, I don't really mind seeing a few more high-level adventures.
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Wardens of the Reborn Forge's product description says that it will go from 12-16 but that barely scratches the surface of high-level. I also don't see how a 64 page adventure can cover levels 12-16. AP installments rock about 50 pages and usually cover two or three levels so it's possible.
To quote myself from the above linked topic:
If you do a statistical breakdown, and I have because I'm a dork like that, it is clear to see that there is a massive lean toward low-level adventures and virtually nothing for high-level play. The lean, I fear, is saturating the Pathfinder market with low-levels material and abandoning the, admittedly smaller, part of the fanbase that enjoys high-level play. This low-level leaning seems even to be limiting the Module options for the so-called 'sweet spot' of levels 7-14.
PFSRPG Modules (Old Format)
Low-Level (1-6): 12
Mid-Level (7-14): 8
High-Level (15-20): 2As you can see there are more than twice the number of low-level adventures than there are mid- and high-level adventures combined.
PFSRPG Modules (New Format)
Low-Level (1-6): 2
Mid-Level (7-14): 1
High-Level (15-20): 0The new format beginning soon with Dragon's Demand will hopefully push this trend in a more balanced direction but only time will tell.
3.5 Modules
Low-Level (1-6): 12
Mid-Level (7-14): 9
High-Level (15-20): 1Adding the 3.5 material to the mix just shows more of the same.
Once I did these numbers I saw the gap was greater than I expected so I added the APs to the mix to see all of the options available to high-level fans. Not all of the APs go to 17th level with most stopping at 15.
Adventure Path Installments
Low-Level (1-6): 17
Mid-Level (7-14): 27
High-Level (15-20): 4These number count only the PFSRPG AP installments but I am sure the trend exists in the 3.5 paths as well.
The flood of low-level material here isn't as extreme with a greater emphasis on mid-level but there is still very little support for high-level options. Wrath of the Righteous may lean away from this but again, only time will tell.
In conclusion, there is very little in high-level options and that is a shame with even the existing material focusing on the low end of the spectrum (AP installments are level 15, Moonscar is 16, Witchwar Legacy is 17, and Blood of the Dragonscar (3.5) is 15).
In counting the new 64-page format I based where the adventure fell on the starting level so the above mentioned Wardens of the Reborn Forge is counted as mid-level though the description puts it just crossing the line.
I have very little interest in high level modules (I dont really like playing pathfinder beyond about level seven). However, if Paizo were looking for a way to get around the problem of low demand, I think an AP tie-in would make some sense.
I dont think it should necessarily be a sequel (since that might start to make the APs feel 'unfinished'), but perhaps set in the same general part of the world, aimed at characters of the level that those who finish an AP would be at.
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After development, Wardens actually goes to 15th, and a party that gets every possible bit of XP will be about halfway to 16th.
If we were to do more 16+ level adventures, what sorts of stories would folks like to see? It's a completely different realm at that level in terms of what sorts of things PCs are capable of and what they expect to face, so I'm curious what specific adventures people would like to see in this level range.
I have very little interest in high level modules (I dont really like playing pathfinder beyond about level seven). However, if Paizo were looking for a way to get around the problem of low demand, I think an AP tie-in would make some sense.
I dont think it should necessarily be a sequel (since that might start to make the APs feel 'unfinished'), but perhaps set in the same general part of the world, aimed at characters of the level that those who finish an AP would be at.
Wouldn't it be possible to make a high level adventure that ties in to several AP's? An example: I can imagine a high level 'Test of the Starstone' adventure, where the PCs undergo the test, not necessarily to become gods, but to destroy an evil artefact from the AP or to gain the power to defeat a certain superfoe or to learn a long-forgotten secret or hidden location that ties into the APs.
The adventure could serve perfectly as a stand-alone module, but if it contains a section on "continuing AP x, y and z", more people might be interested in buying it.
After development, Wardens actually goes to 15th, and a party that gets every possible bit of XP will be about halfway to 16th.
If we were to do more 16+ level adventures, what sorts of stories would folks like to see? It's a completely different realm at that level in terms of what sorts of things PCs are capable of and what they expect to face, so I'm curious what specific adventures people would like to see in this level range.
Well as I said, it's not really my thing. Nonetheless, if you we're to make some high level stuff I think it should be qualitatively different rather than just "more".
I'd get something out of them if they detailed regions of other planes, or focused (in a meaningful way*) on some dealings of the political movers and shakers.
When high level adventures are just longer stat blocks and bigger numbers, I really struggle to see much value. To me, it just means that everything takes longer.
I guess that's not very specific. I'd like things like the PCs:
- act to prevent one of the noble houses of Taldor usurping the throne.
- travel to hell to negotiate extra resources for cheliax (or to thwart such negotiations)
- lead a razmiran uprising
- sneak into the red mantis citadel and steal...something
- prevent a crazy priest of rovagug from successfully completing the test of the startstone
I have very little interest in high level modules (I dont really like playing pathfinder beyond about level seven). However, if Paizo were looking for a way to get around the problem of low demand, I think an AP tie-in would make some sense.
I dont think it should necessarily be a sequel (since that might start to make the APs feel 'unfinished'), but perhaps set in the same general part of the world, aimed at characters of the level that those who finish an AP would be at.
Wouldn't it be possible to make a high level adventure that ties in to several AP's? An example: I can imagine a high level 'Test of the Starstone' adventure, where the PCs undergo the test, not necessarily to become gods, but to destroy an evil artefact from the AP or to gain the power to defeat a certain superfoe or to learn a long-forgotten secret or hidden location that ties into the APs.
The adventure could serve perfectly as a stand-alone module, but if it contains a section on "continuing AP x, y and z", more people might be interested in buying it.
I think that would be possible. If its too broad, it might just feel like a standalone adventure with some token plot hooks.
I was thinking more along he lines of a thematic sequel (like a horror themed trip into Gallowspire at the conclusion of carrion crown, for example). Not strictly part of the AP but pretty closely related.
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There seems to be a lot of potential in the existing cannon that can be really exploited while not making the kind of major changes to Golarion that have been avoided so far. The tone and scope of 15-20th level play is very different and I appreciate the fact that the developers understand that because, as stated above, bigger statblocks don't make a high-level adventure.
Steve's mention of Gallowspire is a great example. We don't need the entire thing but a foray with some material about expanding on it would be great. From what I gather there are other places ripe for high-level dungeon crawls scattered around the world.
The rise of some big-bad is an old trope but works really well for high-level threats. For example, Treerazer seems to be a great untapped resource. The big bad needn't be some ancient evil such as Xin or the Whispering Tyrant, instead some existing organization such as the above mentioned Red Mantises. The power players need not be eliminated but their plans could definitely be majorly disrupted.
Another fun option is exploration of some extremely hostile environment, perhaps an as yet unmapped part of Golarion, underwater, space, the planes, or another world. There is a lot of fun to be had from forcing player's to adapt to an alien or hostile (or both) environment and put the use of their character's abilities to the test in order to adapt or die.
There is, of course, the often requested Starstone adventure but I agree with some developer comments that such an adventure is probably premature at this time.
Many of these elements can be combined to make for an adventure with more variety. 64 pages really gives the opportunity to explore a few different elements without making anything feel neglected. I just counted pages and the final two installments of Age of Worms (covering 3.5 levels 19-20) comes in at 70 pages combined so there is certainly room in 64 to make a very robust high-level romp, and that included Dregotha's treasure horde and that monster Kyuss stat-block. lol
I could throw out some pitches of specific ideas if that is more what you are looking for, such as my in-progress Rise of Rovagug 20th level adventure I am writing for my girlfriend. (She is constantly wanting to play high-level, she hates low-level and is okay with mid-level so long as she gets to have a badass 15+ character eventually.) Just some less general ideas of things that would grab my interest and thus my wallet.
I appreciate a willingness to listen to the community, which is something I have always loved about Paizo and one of the big reasons I still actively support the company as best I can. I would like to keep this dialogue open.
Given more insight into production and marketing, what sorts of adventures would the developers like to produce? What do you guys think would be fun to make?
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EDIT: Damn typos.
Third party groups have tried to fill the void and certainly no offense to third party groups but quality is spotty unless you know just where to go and then, options still remain limited.
Please do give us third-party publishers a try, because reviews let people know which 3PP stuff is good, and the not-so-good stuff doesn't get better without feedback.
I'm particularly vested because of the very recent release of our first high-level adventure, Kingdom of Toads, right here.
I, too, am interested in some high-level adventures, especially those that deal with recovering some ancient magic, battling planar enemies, or battling particular devil lords. I'm so busy writing or editing things for various companies that I don't have time to plan adventures for my home campaign, and I am still running a 12-year-old solo campaign. The character is 17th level now, and I'm looking for good challenges for him, though I admit to running some adventures of various levels for the character just to infuse him in local political situations and the like.
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please,please,please,please,please,please,please,please..etc.
Ok you get the idea, but seriously you invest all this time and development into your character and when you finally get some capstone powers,9th level spells oh campaign is over.
The highest level i ever played was a 1E and 2E fighter 9/MU 21 and loved it.
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Please do give us third-party publishers a try, because reviews let people know which 3PP stuff is good, and the not-so-good stuff doesn't get better without feedback.
I'm particularly vested because of the very recent release of our first high-level adventure, Kingdom of Toads, right here.
I certainly meant no disrespect to 3PP. You guys have an uphill battle in competing with first party publishers and efforts to fill gaps left by the main line products is the way to go. Having a place like the store here for reviews is a major resource for both the publishers and consumers when it comes to promoting/finding quality products.
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In other news, Wrath of the Righteous seems to be shaping up to be precisely what we have been clamoring for. The bulk of this path is high-level or high-level friendly, with or without the inclusion of the mythic rules.
I am voting with my wallet on this one and I encourage you guys to do the same. If they see the love for high-level products they will be more inclined to produce it.
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After development, Wardens actually goes to 15th, and a party that gets every possible bit of XP will be about halfway to 16th.
If we were to do more 16+ level adventures, what sorts of stories would folks like to see? It's a completely different realm at that level in terms of what sorts of things PCs are capable of and what they expect to face, so I'm curious what specific adventures people would like to see in this level range.
My high-levels games are often set in large scale wars, backed by outsiders, powerful summoners, evil gods and their like.
This makes any of the following must-buys for me, preferably in a modular format so I can easily mix and match for my homebrew:Basic dungeon crawls: a prophet’s hidden tomb, a lost archmage’s library, a vault/demiplane of an imprisoned demonlord/demigod/demilich.
A metropolis is besieged by a demon-backed army and the characters must organize the defenses and deal with a number of bosses.
A team of high-powered assassin are terrorizing the city/kingdom and the characters must draw them out and defeat them, then strike into enemy territory to defeat the assassins’ masters.
A villa/castle/guildhouse with hidden defenses powerful enough to deal with high-powered intruders.
Basic stuff really, but with really powerful opponents, tricks and traps.
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Now, as has been stated many, many times, one of the largest issues preventing new material is bandwidth; Paizo just doesn't have the resources to do much more than they're doing now, especially for something that relatively speaking might be a commercial flop.
However, given the investment players have in their characters after playing 6 parts of an adventure path, I'd imagine many would be more than interested in continuing that same game with those same characters, basically playing a part 7 of 6 adventure (that's what I've been calling this idea for a while). In an ideal world there could be a new line of products, likely in support of both the AP line and the mythic rules, that adds a part 7 to every adventure path.
Obviously it'd come out once or twice a year, and it would actually implement one of the "continuing the campaign" threads that many of the adventure paths end with, taking it to the next level as appropriate for that adventure path. Because it would pick up after the end of an adventure path, these adventures would always start at a minimum of 15th level, possibly higher, and assuming the new module format they'd cover a level or two, e.g. 15-17, 17-19, or even possibly 20+ for one that followed the new Worldwound path.
I would certainly not recommend undercutting the highly successful module line, which is why I don't see something like this coming along soon, but it's a way to publish high-level material that isn't a one-off and which has a bit of a built-in market already, and in many cases could likely work as a standalone module for an existing high-level party.
Anyways, that's my two cents :)
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we have two groups in Minnesota going past eyes of the ten and working toward the magic lv 20. Current support for high level unless you do massive trickery stops play at 19. We are dedicated players being supported by our area leadership and buying a good deal of the high level adventures to support our high level play lust. There is almost no way to level two characters up through the high level pfs play. I have two characters at high level and more on the way. I play a lot of the new adventures that come out and am a four star GM. I support this product 110% regardless of the little things not next to my name. I want to see more high level content please!
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We know that the next module in line is the RPG Superstar winner The Daughters of Fury due out in November, which means we won't be seeing any 15+ modules until 2015.
I restate my mantra, since this thread has come back around again, please let us have some high-level content. Wrath of the Righteous was on the right track but mythic puts it in a bit of a niche that module not utilizing a non-core rules system could fill.
Pretty sure Adventure Quarterly just put out a high level adventure.
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I made a comment about third party publishers above but it bears repeating that there really are some great options out there from the 3PPs. Sometimes it's hard to determine quality from obscure publishers or authors but if you know where and how to look there are some gems. The point of the topic, however, is official published material from Paizo and the stunning lack thereof.
Now, as has been stated many, many times, one of the largest issues preventing new material is bandwidth; Paizo just doesn't have the resources to do much more than they're doing now, especially for something that relatively speaking might be a commercial flop.
However, given the investment players have in their characters after playing 6 parts of an adventure path, I'd imagine many would be more than interested in continuing that same game with those same characters, basically playing a part 7 of 6 adventure (that's what I've been calling this idea for a while). In an ideal world there could be a new line of products, likely in support of both the AP line and the mythic rules, that adds a part 7 to every adventure path.
Obviously it'd come out once or twice a year, and it would actually implement one of the "continuing the campaign" threads that many of the adventure paths end with, taking it to the next level as appropriate for that adventure path. Because it would pick up after the end of an adventure path, these adventures would always start at a minimum of 15th level, possibly higher, and assuming the new module format they'd cover a level or two, e.g. 15-17, 17-19, or even possibly 20+ for one that followed the new Worldwound path.
I would certainly not recommend undercutting the highly successful module line, which is why I don't see something like this coming along soon, but it's a way to publish high-level material that isn't a one-off and which has a bit of a built-in market already, and in many cases could likely work as a standalone module for an existing high-level party.
Anyways, that's my two cents :)
This is a fine idea!!
And I mean fine, as in a high quality, marvellous workmanship, wonderful to behold idea.
I don't see how these wouldn't sell to the level of the part 6s from their parent APs.
I like the idea of a "weak tie" high-level module or two that could be played as the swansong for a party that completed an AP, but could work just fine on its own. Especially with the new format, maybe an adventure that runs from levels 17-20? Perhaps there could be an alternate introduction that explains a possible tie-in.
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I'd be happy to see a module starting at level 17 or 18 and going to 20 with a tie in to the APs or not. I'd just like to see support for the upper levels of play with published adventure content.
I don't think 'part sevens' are a good business strategy overall because it ties the success of one line to the success of another line rather than letting it stand on its own, which has been the apparent strategy so far. We have two distinct adventure lines, one for long campaigns and one for stand alone modules. Each fills its own distinct demand.
I would like to see high-level adventures in general. I have an enormous collection of adventures, but I always notice I have more and more difficulty finding relevant adventures when my players reach high levels. This starts around level 12 and gets worse from level 16 onwards.
Even in adventure paths you often need something extra at high levels, e.g. side quests. I have players who use all their abilities to the max when they reach high levels, which often leads to unexpected plot developments. Sometimes I suddenly need a short high-level adventure or encounter to add in. Usually I then end up writing my own, and since I usually need it next play session, this is stressful (as high-level adventures need lots of prep time and I combine DM-ing with a busy job and running a family). So yes, every high-level adventure, even the smallest, is welcome.
Maybe a thought is to have two tiers of modules subscriptions, at a slightly different price-point. Yes, volume of high-level adventures would likely be lower, but if the product still pays the bills and keeps people playing PF, it's a win. Maybe two a year would be reasonable. Of course, that's just two more (complicated) products for the eternally overworked staff to handle.
On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure I'd keep subscribing to low-level adventures if given the choice. I've got SOOOOO many it's not even funny.
I just "had to" dip into my old Dungeon collection to find a side-quest adventure to run for my Tsar group who are 19th-20th. Why? Because I can count the number of modules I have for that range on my noses.
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On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure I'd keep subscribing to low-level adventures if given the choice. I've got SOOOOO many it's not even funny.
This is exactly one of my major concerns about the modules line in general. If you look upthread at some of the numbers the line weighs far too heavily on low level content, a fact that I find disappointing.
Yes, I agree.
The problem with the stat blocks can partially be avoided by using monsters from the bestiaries.
Also, my experience is that a high-level adventure does not need a huge dungeon map, since the group can use teleport, plane shift, gate and similar spells. You only need small locations with huge rooms.
Moreover, since encounters can be a bit higher, since high-level groups are very powerful and versatile, you will need less of them.
Another solution is to make shorter high-level adventures. There are lots of ways to link adventures, so that would not be a problem.
A third solution is perhaps to make the environment more dangerous, so that the NPC stats need not be so high, i.e. introduce general rules to make the adventure tactically more dangerous.
E.g. consider an adventure on the elemental plane of water.
Low-level adventures tend to sell more copies than high-level adventures. They are also easier to write, easier to develop, and easier to design/lay out for publishing. That means profit margins are higher, and that really is the bottom line. Remember that Paizo is a business, and the primary goal of any business is to turn a profit.
It's sometimes hard to gague actual demand by reading posts on the messageboards. What might seem blisteringly popular on the boards might translate to a solid "meh" in the real world.
Yes, that is probably true. But also it is a pity. I have a lot of low-level modules. At first I even bought the Pathfinder Society Adventures, but I haven't bought one in a while, since I have so many low-level adventures already.
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I would point you to Coliseum Morpheuon, which starts at APL16. It has 8 five-star+ reviews. Along with it, there's the adventure Down the Rabbit Hole, also high level and written by myself, Clinton Boomer and Matt Banach.
The whole Faces of the Tarnished Souk series from Rite Publishing expands on this adventure/setting, giving you more foes/rivals/allies to encounter within the Khan's realm and beyond. There are 33 products in that line so far, and the current Kickstarter promises to make a few more.
-Ben.
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I've got it. The issue - really - is that we need more. We need a selection so that we can find things that fit reasonably into ongoing campaigns. One, two, or even a half-dozen aren't quite enough to choose from. For instance, there isn't a chance I could adapt CM into my Tsar campaign. What we're looking for is a shelf more evenly distributed into the high end so we can treat it as a resource.
Oh, and evidently the answer to the thread's question is Owen K.C. Stephens. <Grin>
I have just bought Coliseum Morpheuon. Not only is it high-level, but it also looks like a very impressive and original product. Thanks for the tip.
I have just bought Coliseum Morpheuon. Not only is it high-level, but it also looks like a very impressive and original product. Thanks for the tip.
I was in a hurry this morning before heading to work so I was brief. You're very right. I bought CM a while back and read much of it and yes, it's very unique and cool. I just haven't yet figured out a way to slip it into my huge to-do queue.
I for one, love all the aspects of leveling my character. The evolution of the party and the mythology left in their wake. I complain some times to my group when we start a new AP because I feel cheated, I know I'm going to love the AP's but I dread their ends. I spend months playing these characters and they become a part of me in a sense. I dislike when we wrap up an epic AP and there is simply no materials to support further play.
I won't defame 3rd party publishers,"keeps up the good fight gents." but I'd like something to truly wrap up my characters journey that is a story wrote for and set in Golarion. I understand putting something in written form isn't cheap, but if the fear is running a print of high level modules that may or may not sell -perhaps only selling them in PDF form? That would cut a lot of the production costs out. Just my two cents, regardless I will continue to support Paizo and the amazing community of gamers it has gathered. Cheers.
I'd like to echo the sentiments above. One high level module per year doesn't seem too much to ask.
That said, the various Campaign Setting guides offer options for high level play for the imaginative GM. Dungeons of Golarion offers a sample level of the Gallowspire. Tar Baphon is statted in the Mythic Realms book, which offers several settings for high level play. Treerazer is in the back of the Inner Sea World Guide. There are bits and pieces out there, but it would be nice to have a kick butt module designed by someone like Colin McComb or Wolfgang Baur to give high level Golarions a chance to continue their story.