Ulfen Traits

[Eric Saxon]

So, there is a human trait called Honor Bound or something like that, in the People of the North book. (+1 to sense motive)

Now, is that considered PFS legal?

Also, since I'm a Human Aasimar (Ulfen heritage) am I allowed to take the trait, if my PC is a Scion of Humanity?

Finally, they called it an ethnic trait, which category of traits does it come from?

FYI, I'm at work and can't verify anything, so I'm going from memory.

[Sniggevert]

Eric Saxon wrote:

So, there is a human trait called Honor Bound or something like that, in the People of the North book. (+1 to sense motive)

Now, is that considered PFS legal?

Also, since I'm a Human Aasimar (Ulfen heritage) am I allowed to take the trait, if my PC is a Scion of Humanity?

Finally, they called it an ethnic trait, which category of traits does it come from?

FYI, I'm at work and can't verify anything, so I'm going from memory.

The trait is legal per the Additional Resources pages.

The People of the North book lists it as a racial trait (human) in the front matter of the book.

With Scion of Humanity, and sticking with Ulfen heritage for counting as a human, I'd think it'd be legal overall. It normally requires being human in PFS to choose an ethnicity really, but your alternate race trait should take care of that IMO.

[Eric Saxon]

Thank you Sniggevert.

Yeah, I'm not sure if its a Race Trait or a Racial Trait at this point, since I know they are different.

I know you can't have Racial Traits as an Aasimar but you can have Race Traits or is it the other way around. It makes sense that if your heavenly bloodline is tainted that you were born to a couple of Ulfen parents and look Ulfen, and wound up inheriting some distant ancestor's divine DNA but you'd still be raised as an Ulfen, seeing as that is all that your parents and village would know. Not like a bunch of Ulfen Vikings could raise you to become an Aasimar, I don't think. :D

[SCPRedMage]

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Player Companion: People of the North

...
The traits on pages 6–13 are only legal if your character is of the same ethnicity as the section with the trait.
...

Since you have to have the ethnicity to take the trait, and you can only officially have the ethnicity if your character is ACTUALLY human, an aasimar cannot take any of those traits, even with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait.

[Eric Saxon]

Actually, he counts as both a Human and as an Outsider, for effects. So, if your orc ranger has humans as his favored enemy, I get hit extra hard, because I'm human. Are you 100% sure of this?

And could we get a ruling on this from Paizo staff?

Can an Aasimar have an ethnic background?

Can an Aasimar born in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings be considered an Ulfen?

And a Tien Aasimar be considered a Tien. Or is a Tien Aasimar assumed to be the same as an Ulfen Aasimar, even though they were raised in different cultures, different kingdoms and different continents.

[SCPRedMage]

The Additional Resources page places additional restrictions on these traits: specifically, you need to be of the appropriate ethnicity.

Ethnicities are a defined rules item, from the Inner Sea World Guide; they're listed in there under "races", as they're all essentially human "sub-races".

With this restriction in place, you can't take these traits unless you have the right ethnicity, which means that non-human characters can't take the traits at all. It also means that players who don't own the Inner Sea World Guide can't take them, either.

So the short answer is that half-elves, half-orcs, and Scion of Humanity aasimars cannot take these traits, just like they cannot take the human racial feats from the Advanced Race Guide.

[Eric Saxon]

Aasimar with the "Scion of Humanity" trait are counted as Race: Human.

They have access to Human Race Feats and Human Race Traits. The only thing they do not have access to is Human Racial Traits. The question is, is this a Race Trait or a Racial Trait.

I want to confirm that you understand the difference between Race and Racial, when answering SCPRedMage, just because sometimes that gets lost in translation.

Are you sure ethnic traits count as Racial Traits rather than Race Traits?

[SCPRedMage]

They do NOT count as racial traits. Racial traits are those little bonuses and features that are automatically granted based on race, and can NOT be selected, ever.

There ARE "alternate racial traits", which you trade one or more automatic racial traits for.

"Race trait" is an unofficial way to refer to traits of the race subcategory. They are completely unrelated to racial traits.

So yes, I do know the difference.

The issue at hand here is the Additional Resources rules for the traits from People of the North. According to those rules, you cannot select the traits from this book unless your character is of the appropriate ethnicity. Since only humans can officially select an ethnicity, only humans can take the traits from this book.

Your parents may have had the ethnicity, but YOU don't. Similarly, a human with an Ulfen parent and a Tien parent could only officially be one of those two ethnicitie, and could NOT count as both. If the player chose their father's Tien ethnicity, they wouldn't count as Ulfen, despite the fact that mommy was Ulfen.

Again, this is an additional restriction unique to the PFS campaign; likewise, an aasimar with Scion of Humanity would normally be able to take, as an example, the Martial Versatility feat from the ARG (assuming they had four levels of fighter), but because the Additional Resources rules for the ARG state that you can only select racial feats if you are ACTUALLY that race, they can't.

[Artoo]

Couldn't you take the adopted trait and then take whatever race trait you want anyway?

I guess it's problematic if you intended to have some other social trait.

[SCPRedMage]

Artoo wrote:

Couldn't you take the adopted trait and then take whatever race trait you want anyway?

I guess it's problematic if you intended to have some other social trait.

The problem is that the restriction that the Additional Resource page places upon these traits is outside the normal game rules, so the Adopted trait wouldn't work to gain access to them.

In the PFS organized play campaign, the only way to gain access to these traits is to actually BE that ethnicity, which means you MUST be human.

[Eric Saxon]

Traits
Characters of the Ulfen ethnicity may choose from the following race traits.

Honor-Driven is a RACE trait, not a racial trait.

So, now I have to figure out if Ulfen ethnicity is available to Aasimar, who give up their Celestial ethnicity to become Scions of Humanity. (scion being literally translated as a descendant, heir, or young member of a family)

[SCPRedMage]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Traits

Characters of the Ulfen ethnicity may choose from the following race traits.

Honor-Driven is a RACE trait, not a racial trait.

So, now I have to figure out if Ulfen ethnicity is available to Aasimar, who give up their Celestial ethnicity to become Scions of Humanity. (scion being literally translated as a descendant, heir, or young member of a family)

"Celestial" is not an ethnicity. Enthnicity is a defined game term; specifically, the types of humans presented in the Inner Sea World Guide. Only humans have an ethnicity. Further, even if the Pathfinder RPG rules were to allow you to select these traits as a non-human, the Additional Resources rules override that, and clearly state that you MUST be of that ethnicity.

I really hate repeating the same thing over and over, but you don't have an ethnicity unless you're human, and the ethnicity is a strict requirement, because of the Additional Resources rules for that book.

[Eric Saxon]

SCPRedMage wrote:

....I really hate repeating the same thing over and over, but you don't have an ethnicity unless you're human, and the ethnicity is a strict requirement, because of the Additional Resources rules for that book.

Then please don't make me repeat this p. 85 ARG

Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.

With this racial trait, I am a humanoid (HUMAN). So, unless you can quote me an exception that says that a humanoid (human) can't have an ethnicity, we can safely assume that a humanoid (human) can have an ethnicity.

[Rei]

Eric Saxon wrote:

With this racial trait, I am a humanoid (HUMAN). So, unless you can quote me an exception that says that a humanoid (human) can't have an ethnicity, we can safely assume that a humanoid (human) can have an ethnicity.

I'm pretty sure half-elves and half-orcs don't have a human ethnicity mechanically, and they count as humans for effects like favored enemy. My half-elf character is blatantly fluffed to be Tien on his human side, but he can't get any mechanical benefit out of it.

I'd say the issue here isn't that a Scion of Humanity aasimar doesn't count as a human. Rather, they do count as human, but due to how the rules work, they can't qualify to be of a specific ethnicity of human. I'm not 100% on this though, so someone with better rules knowledge than mine will want to comment on this.

[SCPRedMage]

Yes, I understand what the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait does.

I also understand that it's nearly worthless in PFS, because of PFS-specific restrictions, but that's another topic.

That other topic:

By the standard rules-as-written, an aasimar with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait could take any of the human-only options from the Advanced Race Guide (excepting human alternate racial traits, of course), such as racial archetypes and feats.

But since the Additional Resources document entry for the Advanced Race Guide has this to say:

Quote:

Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

Non-human characters cannot take the human archetypes and feats, etc, from that book, even if they COUNT as humans, such as Scion of Humanity aasimars, half-elves, and half-orcs.

As to specific rules that say a humanoid (human) can't have an ethnicity, you won't find one, because there ISN'T one.

There isn't one, because there doesn't NEED to be one. Just like we don't need a rule that says a horse doesn't count as a wolf, or that your mother was the bloody tooth fairy.

Nothing, anywhere, says anyone but ACTUAL humans can select an ethnicity. If you want to claim otherwise, YOU have to provide a rule that says you can; I do not have to provide you a rule that says you can't.

If you need help, start looking in the Inner Sea World Guide, as that's the only book that has the ethnicity material in it. Start with page 10.

PS: If you don't own Inner Sea World Guide, you can't select an ethnicity anyways.

[SCPRedMage]

Rei wrote:

I'd say the issue here isn't that a Scion of Humanity aasimar doesn't count as a human. Rather, they do count as human, but due to how the rules work, they can't qualify to be of a specific ethnicity of human. I'm not 100% on this though, so someone with better rules knowledge than mine will want to comment on this.

Yeah, here's the thing: when you select your character's race, ethnicities are legal options. To put that another way, you don't pick human (ulfen), you pick Ulfen. Ulfens are treated in all ways the same as humans, with the sole exception that they get an additional automatic language (Skald).

[Eric Saxon]

SCPRedMage wrote:

By the standard rules-as-written, an aasimar with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait could take any of the human-only options from the Advanced Race Guide (excepting human alternate racial traits, of course), such as racial archetypes and feats.

But since the Additional Resources document entry for the Advanced Race Guide has this to say:
Quote:

Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

Non-human characters cannot take the human archetypes and feats, etc, from that book, even if they COUNT as humans, such as Scion of Humanity aasimars, half-elves, and half-orcs.

RACIAL, RACIAL, RACIAL. Not RACE.

Alternate Racial Rules - Aasimar can't have them.
Racial Subtypes - Aasimar can't have them.
Racial Archetypes & Bloodlines - Aasimar can't have them.
Racial Feats - Aasimar can't have them.

RACE subtypes, archetypes, bloodlines, feats, IF such exist, are fair game. RACIAL are NOT.

RACIAL is not RACE. You can do a search on the forums and find that RACIAL is not RACE.

This is why I asked someone from Paizo Staff to put this one to rest, they just haven't put a ruling down yet.

[zefig]

Eric, the only time there's a big distinction between the two is between Alternate Racial Traits and Race Traits, and that's a consequence of race-granted features being called racial traits before the Trait system was introduced in the APG. They needed something distinct to call Traits that a character can qualify for based on its race.

Alternate Racial Traits switch out a granted feature of a race for a different feature, a la Scion of Humanity itself, or a Tiefling trading Fiendish Sorcery for a Prehensile Tail, for example.

Race Traits are a category of Trait, much like Faith Traits or Magic Traits.

[SCPRedMage]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Alternate Racial Rules - Aasimar can't have them.

Racial Subtypes - Aasimar can't have them.
Racial Archetypes & Bloodlines - Aasimar can't have them.
Racial Feats - Aasimar can't have them.

Allow me to correct that list for you, assuming this is a Scion of Humanity aasimar we're talking about.

Alternate Racial TRAITS - Aasimar can't have them.
Racial Subtypes (aka Ethnicities) - Aasimar can't have them (and that's why you can't take the trait in question).
Racial Archetypes & Bloodlines - Aasimar can have them by RAW; PFS makes additional restrictions on racial options from the ARG, which, to my knowledge, is the only source for them.
Racial Feats - Aasimar can have them by RAW; PFS makes additional restrictions on racial options from the ARG, but this aasimar COULD select a human feat from another source, such as the Eclectic or Racial Heritage feats from the Advanced Player's Guide.

But you're focusing on the wrong thing.

As I said before, the PFS campaign places a strict requirement that only characters who actually ARE that particular ethnicity can take those traits.

You seem to be caught up on ethnicity as a fluff concept, but it's not, it's a defined game mechanic. The rules do not allow for non-human members of human ethnicities. Ulfen is a human ethnicity, therefore the rules do not allow for half-elf, half-orc, or Scion of Humanity aasimar members, even though they count as humans for effects.

In a home campaign, it'd be totally acceptable to house rule such that your aasimar COULD count as that ethnicity, but by RAW, and thus in the PFS campaign, you do not and CAN not count as ANY ethnicity, unless you are playing an actual human.

You have be given an answer, and you have been told WHY the answer is what it is. At this point, I can only assume you're being stubborn and/or willfully ignorant.

Aasimar cannot take traits from People of the North, even with Scion of Humanity, as they cannot have an ethnicity.

[Eric Saxon]

All this other stuff, I agree with you 100%. Give me a page number where Ethnicity is defined as a Racial Subtype.

I just need to see it for myself. Can you tell me where???

A page number in any of the books you've named. I have them, I will use them, tell me where.

[zefig]

Inner Sea World Guide, p10, bottom left paragraph:

Quote:

On Golarion, humanity is further divided into many

different, unique ethnicities. While each human ethnicity
is identical so far as rules are concerned, they have wildly
different appearances, histories, and customs. Twelve
human ethnicities are detailed on the following pages,
followed by entries on the six non-human core races. Any
of these races and ethnicities are appropriate for play in an
Inner Sea region campaign.

Note that the ethnicities are for humans, not non-human core races, such as half-elves and half-orcs, who count as humans.