I heard somewhere a while ago that creatures immune to mind-affecting effects (undead, constructs, specific creatures like sinspawn and serpentfolk, etc) automatically fail will saves to disbelieve illusion spells like minor image and the like, even if they're sentient.
Is this supported in any way? Or was that guy bullsh*&ing me?
I don't know of any actual rules to support that interpretation.
Hhhmmm.....seems he was bullsh%$ing me.....and I couldn't act in that encounter too because of that!!!
ARRGH!!!
Anyone else have thoughts or opinions?
Some illusions are by definition mind-affecting spells. Look at the descriptors for various illusion spells and the list of mind-affecting descriptors. You'd actually be unaffected by certain illusions. No save necessary, not the same as save automatically failed but more like automatically made.
Some illusions are in fact mind affecting. Those illusions that do have the description (it should show it next to illusion in the spell description) as mind affecting cannot affect Undead and other creatures that are immune to mind affecting spell. So they would automatically succeed on saves against those and not be affected in any way whatsoever.
So it's actually the exact opposite of what you're friend said. Undead are never affected by mind affecting spells (unless the caster uses the Threnodic Spell metamagic).
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Ah, but silent image and it's derivatives aren't mind-affecting, they're figments. So would it merely work normally?
If not, I suppose an illusionist in a Serpent's Skull game would be a bad idea.....
Mkay, scouting around some, and assuming the idea is 'automatically failing' or automatically succeeding...
The common effect of being immune to things like that which have saves is to just assume they made it, unless the effect would 'work on objects, or is otherwise harmless'. That's the detail from constructs and undead in regards to constitution based saves (I.E.: You can't poison a rock, but you can disintegrate a rock). If it can touch them, they make a fort save as normal.
Being mindless has a similar quality, except since 'mind-affecting' never really works on objects, that last part doesn't really exist. On the other hand, if you're mindless, what's to say you're going to you have the power to disbelieve something that isn't real?
What takes precedence: Reality, or fantasy? Reality tends to win on that question. Gravity wins against Illusionary bridges unless they got a shadow component after all.
This...is causing me a headache. @_@ this shouldn't be that much of an issue. XD XD
Mkay. after reading what I said, three things come to mind:
1) Serious GM call on setting some hard facts.
2) An illusion, so long as it is -not- mind-affecting, looks perfectly real to a mindless creature. Fake fire, fake wall, fake bridge, etc. Assuming there's a particular reason the mindless creature would respond to what they see, they react to it as if it's real.
3A) When interacting with said illusion, they treat it as real and 'fake'. Zombies want to claw at the wall you disappeared through. They'll assume there's a wall. when they fall through the wall to the other side, they ignore the fact they fell through - all they care about is they're now in a path chasing you again. You push them back through. They'll see a wall in their way again. If they see a bridge they can cross to reach you, they'll assume the bridge is real, even to the point of falling through it into a chasm.
3B)Alternatively, because will saves are wisdom based, focus on that - if they got wisdom, they can disbelieve when they interact. They pass, they have the magical knowledge it's fake. They fail, they continue to assume it's real. Zombie swings his hands at an invisible wall trying to claw through it to get to you - assuming another zombie doesn't push him through or something, he rolls to disbelieve by interaction. He wins, he 'realizes' he can push through, and does so. he fails, he assumes he's been cut off, and either looks for a different way, or stares at the wall mumbling about brains until he falls through it or something.
I heard somewhere a while ago that creatures immune to mind-affecting effects (undead, constructs, specific creatures like sinspawn and serpentfolk, etc) automatically fail will saves to disbelieve illusion spells like minor image and the like, even if they're sentient.
Is this supported in any way? Or was that guy bullsh*&ing me?
There is no rule to support that. Not all illusions are mind-affecting, and even so, there is no auto-fail.
By the rules of the game even Int - creatures get a will save so just because they see the wall that does not mean they have to acknowledge it. Just like any other creature they can know if something is there or not, assuming they make the save.
A will save is not them using logic to figure out the wall is not there. It is just their mind, and they do have one, not being overcome by the magic if they make the save.
Ah, but silent image and it's derivatives aren't mind-affecting, they're figments. So would it merely work normally?
If not, I suppose an illusionist in a Serpent's Skull game would be a bad idea.....
Correct, phantasms and patterns are mind-affecting, figments and glamers and shadows are not. You still have many options.
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Many spells give more guidance as to what constitutes "interacting" with the illusion. One thing that I'm not very certain on, is when you add sound effects to an illusion, such as Minor Image, if that will automatically give a Will save.