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I love how this thread is still running strong when, despite RD's greatest attempts, "What do YOU think MY character looks like?" died a while ago.
That's too bad.
His thread was a good idea, marred by the sole flaw of being entirely uncontroversial, and thus lacking the potential of becoming a self-licking ice cream cone.
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I love how every martial thread turns into a thread about how to change everything in the game, but martials.
Seriously? Lay off the casters guys. They are not OP. If you really hate more than half the rules and more than half of the classes, maybe you should just go play a different game.
When you have one class that has orbital nukes that can clear out entire cities and another class that as a shiny piece of metal to mildly wound one creature..
Here is the wizard, he is god. Just like that, he's defeated armies of soldiers, that bow and worship him now. Don't believe him to be such? Well witness his ability to remove all the magic you had cast on you.
While a relatively expensive method of things, its undeniably effective. Extremely much so.
For martials, IE Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, to reach something like this.. We need to go into a wuxia state. More skill points for the fighter. Skills that mean stuff. Feats for these three classes that evolve like equipment feats do. More equipment feats even. A sort of 'supernatural' power of the mundane if you would.
I love how every martial thread turns into a thread about how to change everything in the game, but martials.
Seriously? Lay off the casters guys. They are not OP. If you really hate more than half the rules and more than half of the classes, maybe you should just go play a different game.
When you have one class that has orbital nukes that can clear out entire cities and another class that as a shiny piece of metal to mildly wound one creature..
Here is the wizard, he is god. Just like that, he's defeated armies of soldiers, that bow and worship him now. Don't believe him to be such? Well witness his ability to remove all the magic you had cast on you.
While a relatively expensive method of things, its undeniably effective. Extremely much so.
For martials, IE Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, to reach something like this.. We need to go into a wuxia state. More skill points for the fighter. Skills that mean stuff. Feats for these three classes that evolve like equipment feats do. More equipment feats even. A sort of 'supernatural' power of the mundane if you would.
The only classes I've seen have problems in actual play are rogue, monk, and samurai. I haven't seen a cavalier.
Fighters are full of trap options, but a good player can make a good character that is an integral part of the party.
If casters look that awesome to you, then you should play a casters. Some of us know just how useful all those spells are against a competent GM. You need your martials just as much as you need your casters.
the worst part on this kind of thread is that we never gonna agree!!
Wrong! That's not the worst thing! :P
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Marthkus, it's been stated and cannot be overstated that "My GM nerfs this spell" does not mean "this spell is balanced".
Quite the opposite in fact.
I love how every martial thread turns into a thread about how to change everything in the game, but martials.
Seriously? Lay off the casters guys. They are not OP. If you really hate more than half the rules and more than half of the classes, maybe you should just go play a different game.
Casters are much more powerful than in AD&D. Much more.
Fighters are less powerful than in AD&D. Quite more.Casters were the stronger character in AD&D.
???
Profit.
If you don't want to bring casters back to being powerful but fragile (ie: 1d4 hp and max +2 from Con), which probably wouldn't be an option for those who never played before D&D 3e and aren't used to fragile casters, then we could look into bringing back fighters to being more powerful (ie: they had the best saves in the game, pounce was free, weapon specialization gave you extra attacks, they had access to better ability modifiers, like 18(00) str or Con modifiers of +3 and above)
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I don't like the idea of having higher modifiers being Fighter only.
Pounce, better saves, maybe even extra attacks (not sure how that'd play out exactly. At highest BaB? At lowest?), hell yeah, but that other seems unnecessarily restrictive, especially to other martials.
Marthkus, it's been stated and cannot be overstated that "My GM nerfs this spell" does not mean "this spell is balanced".
Quite the opposite in fact.
Why would he need to nerf spells?
Balanced party enemies do the "nerfing" for him
EDIT: If the entire encounter shares the same bad save, then ofcourse casters are going to dominate.
Unless your DM is throwing nothing but Undead/Oozes and creatures with no magic items or spell effects at you, no "balanced party" is going to be immune to the effects of Overwhelming Presence and Mage's Disjunction.
Also, you do realize Will is the most common bad save, right?
And if it's not Will it's probably Reflex. Pit spells are nice too.
Many of us playing pathfinder started with 3.5. I haven't played editions before that and do not care if those editions can justify a power seep.many of us did, and the martial disparity was waaaaay lower.
@Aelryinth you fforgot to mention everybody had pounce, making "on the move" melee much more powerful
"Melee can no longer move and attack at full power."
It's on the list! ;) Note that Pounce is restricted to charges. 1E had no such limit on movements.
==Aelryinth
Unless your DM is throwing nothing but Undead/Oozes and creatures with no magic items or spell effects at you, no "balanced party" is going to be immune to the effects of Overwhelming Presence and Mage's Disjunction.
Also, you do realize Will is the most common bad save, right?
And if it's not Will it's probably Reflex. Pit spells are nice too.
Overwhelming presence. Strong will save reduces it to a 1 round stagger.
Mage's Disjunction. Most monster's do not even use gear.
3 monsters can have 3 bad saves. Most encounters have more than 3 monsters.
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Casters were much less powerful in 1E. The spells might be able to do more, but saves went UP, instead of DOWN. Success rates against magic INCREASED as you leveled.
A 16th level monster used the fighter saves and basically saved against everything on a 4. Take THAT, save or dies! Direct damage was usually the best way to get rid of something. Give a Fighter at higher levels a RIng of Prot+3 and he needed a 2 to save against everything. Even at 10th level, it might be an 8 or 5.
But casters also had a lot less spells to cast (only clerics got bonus spells), and being fragile, had to be far more mindful of their own defense. Magic item construction was HARD, almost epic in nature, with each magic item like researching a new spell, and then you had to permanently give up Con to make the item!
The inability to customize in 1E, the vulnerability when casting, the fragility, really reined in casters in 1E. Sure, if they got the spells off, great stuff could happen...but no summoned monsters were so nasty a high level fighter couldn't trounce them.
And be straight...1E fighters didn't have Pounce, they were able to FREELY MOVE AND FULL ATTACK. Much, much nicer then Pounce. In short, they could move and attack just as much as any other class...because only the melee classes got multiple attacks.
==Aelryinth
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Unless your DM is throwing nothing but Undead/Oozes and creatures with no magic items or spell effects at you, no "balanced party" is going to be immune to the effects of Overwhelming Presence and Mage's Disjunction.
Also, you do realize Will is the most common bad save, right?
And if it's not Will it's probably Reflex. Pit spells are nice too.
Overwhelming presence. Strong will save reduces it to a 1 round stagger.
Mage's Disjunction. Most monster's do not even use gear.
3 monsters can have 3 bad saves. Most encounters have more than 3 monsters.
MD: most adventures use gear. Bam. gone.
MD also doesn't /just/ effect gear. it also effects magical enhancements.
Please make a 19+Cha+Misc modifier save martial classes. Didn't? Oh too bad, you're now the play thing of the GM.
Overwhelming presence. Strong will save reduces it to a 1 round stagger.
Strong Will save being rare, and even a passed Will save neuters them for 1 round.
Most monster's do not even use gear.
Wat
Also, you forgot buffs. If they don't have one, they DEFINITELY have the other, or they're not a threat anyway.
3 monsters can have 3 bad saves. Most encounters have more than 3 monsters.
Taking out every monster on the field with a bad Will save is bad because there might be a couple more that didn't bow down and instead are unable to full attack or potentially even attack at all that round?
Seriously?
So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
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I am curious. What CR 18 encounter favor martials over casters?So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
300 level 5 warriors! Oh wait.. no aoe
4 level 20 fighters? Oh wait.. poor will saves
4 dragons? oh wait.. flying
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
Jabberwockies!
I am curious. What CR 18 encounter favor martials over casters?So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
A bunch of monks attack the party. They have grapple feats.
A bunch of clerics attack the party. They have high will saves.
A bunch of demons attack the party. They have SR.
Actually anything with SR works. My fighter can cut through most DR with Greater Penetrating Strike. The casters do not have any silver bullets that ignore saves and SR. They have to weaken the foes and then my fighter kills them.
So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
What? The golem is immune to magic, My fighter ignores 10 points of it's DR and tries his best to kill the thing, before it eats all of the casters.
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I am curious. What CR 18 encounter favor martials over casters?So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
A bunch of monks attack the party. They have grapple feats.
A bunch of clerics attack the party. They have high will saves.
A bunch of demons attack the party. They have SR.
Actually anything with SR works. My fighter can cut through most DR with Greater Penetrating Strike. The casters do not have any silver bullets that ignore saves and SR. They have to weaken the foes and then my fighter kills them.
A bunch of monks attack the party! Freedom of movement~
A bunch of clerics attack the party with high will saves? Shap. Crushing hand.
Bunch of Demons with SR? Crushing Rocks, Shapechange or the like. Or just be good at breaking SR.
What? The golem is immune to magic, My fighter ignores 10 points of it's DR and tries his best to kill the thing, before it eats all of the casters.So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
Pff, glitterdust is unaffected, the same with grease or create pit. Even snowball would staggered them. Not to mention that the wizard can just summon a bunch of lantern archon that bypas every kind of DR.
By the way that Reverse gravity totally destroy the encounter.
Yes caster weakens target and the martials put it down.
Army of archons is the silver bullet though. Ofcourse how many summons does a CR 19 worthy caster have prepared where summoning archons is an efficient strat?
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*the wheels of the thread pop off again and tumble and rage in all directions, while the thread itself, rudderless, careens violently out of control, as the crew struggles and squabbles among themselves over the now loosed steering mechanism*
I am curious. What CR 18 encounter favor martials over casters?So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
A bunch of monks attack the party. They have grapple feats.
A bunch of clerics attack the party. They have high will saves.
A bunch of demons attack the party. They have SR.
Actually anything with SR works. My fighter can cut through most DR with Greater Penetrating Strike. The casters do not have any silver bullets that ignore saves and SR. They have to weaken the foes and then my fighter kills them.
A bunch of monks attack the party! Freedom of movement~
A bunch of clerics attack the party with high will saves? Shap. Crushing hand.
Bunch of Demons with SR? Crushing Rocks, Shapechange or the like. Or just be good at breaking SR.
The monks still crush the casters with their fist and stunning fist.
The clerics counter your spell.
Crushing rocks is weak. casters are poor at damage. Shapechange is weak, you can't really fight with it.
Martials are needed every time to survive that encounter.
*the wheels of the thread pop off again and tumble and rage in all directions, while the thread itself, rudderless, careens violently out of control, as the crew struggles violently among themselves over the now loosed steering mechanism*
For some odd reason most of these people play in games where the DM goes out of their way to make casters shine.
What? The golem is immune to magic, My fighter ignores 10 points of it's DR and tries his best to kill the thing, before it eats all of the casters.So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
Pff, glitterdust is unaffected, the same with grease or create pit. Even snowball would staggered them. Not to mention that the wizard can just summon a bunch of lantern archon that bypas every kind of DR.
By the way that Reverse gravity totally destroy the encounter.
Yes caster weakens target and the martials put it down.
Army of archons is the silver bullet though. Ofcourse how many summons does a CR 19 worthy caster have prepared where summoning archons is an efficient strat?
What? Summon monster III is one of the best summon spells out there, and with the lantern archon trick pretty much all high levels Treantmknk-like wizards wold have a couple.
You need a lot of archons to burn down that golem
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*cascading failure causes engine parts to loose from the out-of-control thread, as steam erupts from its carriage. Bolts and other random parts fly about with a whiz and a pop-zip-bang. The crew continues to bicker, grasping the steering mechanism, no longer attached to the thread, back and forth between themselves, as the world tumbles by*
*cascading failure causes engine parts to loose from the out-of-control thread, as steam erupts from its carriage. Bolts and other random parts fly about with a whiz and a pop-zip-bang. The crew continues to bicker, grasping the steering mechanism, no longer attached to the thread, back and forth between themselves, as the world tumbles by*
I can only hope that all threads talking about caster nerfs end up the same way.
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What? The golem is immune to magic, My fighter ignores 10 points of it's DR and tries his best to kill the thing, before it eats all of the casters.So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
Magic immunity doesn't exactly mean magic immunity. Crashing rocks. No SR, and you still beat it down.
Then Unless that fighter have a vorpal adamantine sword, he will have to rely on the the wizard.
And oops. The golems rolled a 19 and confirmed a crit against your fighter.
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What? The golem is immune to magic, My fighter ignores 10 points of it's DR and tries his best to kill the thing, before it eats all of the casters.So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
There are like six gazillion spells that don't roll SR. For the time Adamantine Golems are a threat, Reverse gravity instantly win any golem-based encounter, no save.
What? The golem is immune to magic, My fighter ignores 10 points of it's DR and tries his best to kill the thing, before it eats all of the casters.So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
Magic immunity doesn't exactly mean magic immunity. Crashing rocks. No SR, and you still beat it down.
Then Unless that fighter have a vorpal adamantine sword, he will have to rely on the the wizard.
And oops. The golems rolled a 19 and confirmed a crit against your fighter.
I hope your caster has a lot of damage spells and a wish or miracle ready. Along with SR ignoring battlefield control spells.
Atleast the archon thing could work. But you are trying to tell me that the caster can us no SR damage spells to get through all that health and fast healing. You need a full party to take it out. The caster prevents the golem from doing anything and the fighter smashes it to pieces. Then one of them kills the beast.
There are like six gazillion spells that don't roll SR. For the time Adamantine Golems are a threat, Reverse gravity instantly win any golem-based encounter, no save.What? The golem is immune to magic, My fighter ignores 10 points of it's DR and tries his best to kill the thing, before it eats all of the casters.So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
The encounter doesn't end just because the golem is floating in the air...
One spell made an otherwise hard encounter for the martial into a automatic "I win" situation.The encounter doesn't end just because the golem is floating in the air...There are like six gazillion spells that don't roll SR. For the time Adamantine Golems are a threat, Reverse gravity instantly win any golem-based encounter, no save.What? The golem is immune to magic, My fighter ignores 10 points of it's DR and tries his best to kill the thing, before it eats all of the casters.So your DMs build encounters that favor casters and you blame casters for being OP.
5 adamantine golems! oh.. wait..
It's not an automatic win. You have to burn down the golem and kill it before reverse gravity runs out. The caster still needs a metric s&@$ ton and spells prepared to kill the thing. All reverse gravity did was force the martials to take out their bows and shoot the thing for a bit waiting for it to come down so they can do the real damage and the caster can quit failing at trying to solo encounters.
You need a lot of archons to burn down that golem
You need 1 single Reverse Gravity spell and you have all the time you need. 1d4+1 archons (from the summon monster VII you had memorized) will chew it in 19 rounds.
Also, Hungry Pit also chew that golem, in case you don't feel fancy about using high level spells for a mere CR19 encounter. With REF 9 he is not going to make it, and he is unable to get out the pit.
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It's not an automatic win. You have to burn down the golem and kill it before reverse gravity runs out. The caster still needs a metric s@#! ton and spells prepared to kill the thing. All reverse gravity did was force the martials to take out their bows and shoot the thing for a bit waiting for it to come down so they can do the real damage and the caster can quit failing at trying to solo encounters.
It is an automatic win. Sure, you have to do the damage yet. But you DON'T NEED THE MARTIALS FOR THAT. The party cleric, summoner, druid, Iquisitor, magus or bard might do it. An eidolon could do it. Even a cohort might do it. Some *familiars* might do it. The wizard trivialized the entire encounter with a spell, no save allowed. You just need the guys who carry the gear to clean the mess.
Infantry is needed to mop up the land and conquer the country after nuclear weapons destroyed everything. That doesn't mean infantry won the war, or that nuclear weapons didn't
But in this case i think is more a problem with monster desing. Golems should be inmune to magic, period.
They are. They aren't inmune to the laws of physics though. If I conjure a hole behind his feet, being immune to magic won't stop him to fall. If I change the gravity to work upwards, he falls too. If I conjure 100tons of rocks over him, the weight is still going to do damage.
It's not an automatic win. You have to burn down the golem and kill it before reverse gravity runs out. The caster still needs a metric s&+& ton and spells prepared to kill the thing. All reverse gravity did was force the martials to take out their bows and shoot the thing for a bit waiting for it to come down so they can do the real damage and the caster can quit failing at trying to solo encounters.It was the wizard that made the otherwise dificult encounter into a very boring "I full attack with my bow until it dies".
Except the martials didn't have that much of a problem in the first place. It's an easy encounter through and through.
Hell if the fighter did have his +5 vorpal great sword he could solo the encounter in a few rounds.
Glitterust? snowball? acid arrow?But in this case i think is more a problem with monster desing. Golems should be inmune to magic, period.They are. They aren't inmune to the laws of physics though. If I conjure a hole behind his feet, being immune to magic won't stop him to fall. If I change the gravity to work upwards, he falls too. If I conjure 100tons of rocks over him, the weight is still going to do damage.
That's a problem with *those* spells being wrongly labeled as *SR no*. Snowball should be evocation, like acid arrow. Glitterdust should be resistible, at least the blinding part.
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It's not an automatic win. You have to burn down the golem and kill it before reverse gravity runs out. The caster still needs a metric s&+& ton and spells prepared to kill the thing. All reverse gravity did was force the martials to take out their bows and shoot the thing for a bit waiting for it to come down so they can do the real damage and the caster can quit failing at trying to solo encounters.It was the wizard that made the otherwise dificult encounter into a very boring "I full attack with my bow until it dies".Except the martials didn't have that much of a problem in the first place. It's an easy encounter through and through.
Hell if the fighter did have his +5 vorpal great sword he could solo the encounter in a few rounds.
The wizard did it *at level 13*. And actually defeated *the full group of 4 Adamantine Golems*. Good luck killing them with your 13th level fighter.