Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite.
-notice right here that smite evil is a swift action and it says nothing of atks, only targeting
If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls
made against the target of her smite.
-meaning the person gains bonuses AFTER smite is applied. notice an absence of anywhere saying ur atks are supernatural ability
If the target of smite evil
-again states that once smite is applied
is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
-still not seeing where it states ur atks are supernatural
Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
-I believe this to be a condensed form of "attacks made while smite effect is in effect" as well. so far "target" has been used 4 times and this is the first and only time it is directly stated with an atk
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
so in the description of smite evil. it is stated as a "targeting effect" 6 times. 1 time it states as an atk and even then it can still when in the context of the text, there is still nothing in the smite evil anywherere that the atks are supernatural. the smite evil is a supernatural spell that targets which it states as a swift action. The effects is explains out don't state they are supernatural atks NOR does it say anywhere the weapon gains these effects. anywhere, only states that the pally does not the weapon which means the smite evil is just a supernatural buff that the pally gains, but his weapon does not.
The attack you make is still an average, regular, everyday attack. It's not a combat maneuver, it's not a Breath Weapon, it's not Spell Combat.
Smite Evil is a Swift Action that targets a creature and applies effects based on the type of creature it is. That's all it does. And none of these effects allow any ability to bypass Incorporeal traits.
You can sit there and say that "Smite Evil Attacks are Supernatural," but I can (and will) easily say that "Smite Evil Attacks are regular attack rolls modified by the Smite Evil effect." You would say that both are correct, right?
In basic function yes, since at the end of the day I'm still rolling a D20, followed by weapon dice and modifiers (assuming magical weaponry). My point is you're taking the latter and saying it doesn't work because Smite Evil is its own special attack (the former statement). It isn't (anymore). I'm not making a Combat Maneuver roll to condemn the evil physically, I'm not forcing the creature to Save or Die like the ability can also intend to work as.
Also, let's go back to Gauss' point. Is there any in-book example or rule that states any basic attack or spell affected by a Supernatural ability makes it a Supernatural attack or spell? If not, then you have no other ground to stand on, and the island your on is shrinking fast.
made against the target of her smite.
-meaning the person gains bonuses AFTER smite is applied. notice an absence of anywhere saying ur atks are supernatural abilityIt doesn't have to say it, if it gives you Smite Evil Attacks then they will inherently be supernatural in nature.
Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
-I believe this to be a condensed form of "attacks made while smite effect is in effect" as well. so far "target" has been used 4 times and this is the first and only time it is directly stated with an atk"Your attacks against the targeted creature automatically bypasss any DR the creature might possess."
That's SHORTER than what they have and doesn't use the "Smite Evil Attacks" phrase.
so in the description of smite evil. it is stated as a "targeting effect" 6 times. 1 time it states as an atk and even then it can still when in the context of the text, there is...Turning your attacks into Smite Evil Attacks against the target isn't any different than the granted dodge bonus. So nothing prevents it from altering your attacks just because it is targeted.
One last thing, and I say this with all due respect. You may have found that a lot of your posts don't get responses. This is because you don't take care to use good grammar, spelling, and don't even indicate what you are quoting and what you are not. It makes it difficult to read your posts and far easier to ignore them. This last post of yours was better than the others I've seen, but it still had some major problems. I only say this so that you have the opportunity to work on it and mean no offense.
very true, where I am at I usually can only access internet with my phone so hence the bad grammar and misspelling. actually got me a computer in front of me hence why everything looks better =]
im under the impression that it works like the dodge feat. the dodge feat u target someone and u get the bonuses until the fight is ended, only difference is that with smite evil we are gaining a bonus to our hit and damage as well. the wording does need to be explained better, because the whole smite evil basically describes a pally buff to themselves the whole way and in one phrase states that its an attack.
tbh imo I believe that we cant really debate anymore of yay or nay because of the wording it could really go either way.
Incorporeals are harmed by Supernatural "Abilities" not Supernatural "Attacks", so no need for Smite Evil to be an Attack if you insist on parsing words.
Second, Incorporeals are immune to non-magical attacks, but that doesn't necessarily mean that non-magical weapons can't hit inncorporeals, they just won't do any damage. It depends on how you interpret the RAW.
Also, Lay on Hands was mentioned up thread. LoH is (Su) and will absolutely affect incorporeal undead. Whether it falls under the full damage clause for Channel Energy is debatable.
If the weapon can't hit then it can't do damage. That is in the combat chapter.
I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here to point out that at the very least it is unclear.
If you really think you are right just open a thread so we can FAQ it. If not then this is pointless.
I have no problem saying well it could be arguably be read as _____ because that acknowledges an imperfection in how the rules were written, and sometimes I find out that by referencing another rules that the rule was not written badly, so either way I learned something, but my first goal is to always get the correct interpretation presented.
If the OP of any post leaves without the correct answer then debating might just end up being pointless, but I also like knowing the correct way of doing something, and that applies outside of the game also. That may be why we differ on the merit of arguing a point just to play devil's advocate.
It is not unclear at all. When I get back I will start thread to get an FAQ for you if you want to argue that is "really" the intent. To debate without the intent of finding the truth is rather pointless however IMO.
Also, let's go back to Gauss' point. Is there any in-book example or rule that states any basic attack or spell affected by a Supernatural ability makes it a Supernatural attack or spell? If not, then you have no other ground to stand on, and the island your on is shrinking fast.We're not talking about just being affected by a supernatural ability. We're talking about a Supernatural Ability X that explicitly says your attacks against the target are now X attacks. I am not aware of another Supernatural ability like this, though there are some extraordinary ones.
The point is that since the Smite Evil (SE) says attacks using it are Smite Evil Attacks (SEA), it itself is saying that those attacks are part of its supernatural ability. Since supernatural abilities can work on incorporeal creatures and the SEAs are part of SE, it should work on supernatural creatures.
Like I said, the closest comparison would be a spell like Produce Flame. This lets you make an attack by tossing fire. Nowhere does it say the fire attack is magical, but of course we know it is. Since this attack is granted by the spell, that makes the attack magical. Similarly, SE says you make SEAs on the target now, so those SEAs should be supernatural.
Another example might be the Inquisitor's True Judgement ability, but that's not perfect. Smite Evil has rather unique wording.
And I'd say that SEAs are regular attacks modified by the Smite Evil effect. They aren't just attack rolls. The SE effect, turning those attacks into SEAs, is what makes those attacks Supernatural. The attack has changed, just like Sneak Attack changes your attack.
Sneak Attack doesn't change the mechanics of the attack, it changes the modifiers used TO attack. By the logic you treat with Smite Evil, I'd rule that the player has to make a discrepancy between whether he is initiating a Smite Evil Attack or not. But the Smite Evil ability is a constant function once applied.
Even so, the language for Smite Evil Attacks can also be phrased as "Attacks enhanced by Smite Evil," and is an equally/more appropriate understanding/intention than Smite Evil as a stand-alone attack, which it isn't because it involves no attack roll to initiate.
Here's a question: What makes a Sneak Attack different from a Regular Attack? The extra damage dice to be dealt when tactical conditions are fulfilled. What makes a Power Attack different from a Regular Attack? Extra damage modifiers for a reduced attack roll modifier. What makes a Smite Evil Attack different from a Regular Attack? Extra damage and AC bonuses v.s. the selected creature that works and scales on the type of creature the Smite affects.
Now let's re-read the whole Smite Evil passage, and ask these questions:
Does Smite Evil make the weapon/player Magical? No.
Does Smite Evil make the weapon/player Supernatural? No.
Does Smite Evil make the weapon/player Incorporeal or able to bypass such traits in any way? No.
Does Smite Evil make the weapon/player deal extra energy-based damage? No.
If it can't do any of the above aforementioned things, it can't affect Incorporeals at all.
If you're going to argue that Smite Evil affects incorporeals, then so does Power Attack, Sneak Attack, Channel Smite, Combat Maneuvers, what have you (as long as the weapon/character is non-magical/supernatural/incorporeal), since these adjust the abilities from being standard to being EX or SU or SP or whatever, which affects incorporeals.
isnt the 3.5 version specifically an atk though whereas pathfinder is basically a supernatural buff against said target?
isnt the 3.5 version specifically an atk though whereas pathfinder is basically a supernatural buff against said target?
I think it(3.5 version) was by RAW but most people played it as free damage applied with a normal attack. I don't think the RAW match the RAI however.
Here is a new thread. Hit the FAQ button
If a point is going to be argued this hard as if someone believes it to be right, and that opinion may lead people in the wrong direction then it deserves an answer.
Let me ask you this, Painbringer, if Sneak Attack was a Supernatural ability would you think it let you attack incorporeal undead with a non-magic weapon? Similarly, do you think the 3.5 Smite Evil would let you do the same?
And please note, Power Attack, Sneak Attack, Combat Maneuvers, and the like are at best extraordinary abilities. So I don't see how you can possibly say that what applies to a Supernatural ability applies to them. Extraordinary abilities have no capability to affect Incorporeal -- how many times do I need to quote that passage on what affects incorporeal, I wonder.
But none of those abilities change the general mechanics of an attack, they add some here and there, subtract some in this scenario, etc. That's it. None of the cited abilities (and then some) change the type of attack it is.
Now, if we were arguing Arcane Strike, which has a specific passage stating it treats the weapon used (even if non-magical) as if it were magical, and bypasses DR/Magic for such purposes, then the answer is clear and dry.
I don't see any such language in the Smite Evil description (both PF AND 3.5) that follows a similar dialect. The same is said for the other examples I cited, and is why I say Smite Evil doesn't work that way.
Edit - I hit the FAQ button on the other thread, and I won't discuss the issue here anymore.
