FAQs about SLAs, and the impact on Prestige Classes

[Jiggy]

Correct - that's what got replaced with the current FAQ text. The ruling you refer to no longer exists anywhere, so it's not a rule. The only FAQ we have on the subject is what I linked.

[andreww]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Sidenote: Picking the Magic (Arcane) Subdomain as your other domain is freaking awesome for these builds... You get to add +1 caster level to your own arcane spells!

As a swift action it would be but as a standard I would hate to lose my first round dropping this.

[cartmanbeck]

andreww wrote:

cartmanbeck wrote:

Sidenote: Picking the Magic (Arcane) Subdomain as your other domain is freaking awesome for these builds... You get to add +1 caster level to your own arcane spells!

As a swift action it would be but as a standard I would hate to lose my first round dropping this.

Good point, but if you had a round to prepare for combat this would be the way to go, I think.

[Joe M.]

cartmanbeck wrote:

CRobledo wrote:

cartmanbeck wrote:

I'm wondering how you get the Int-based casting for the Cleric side of that first option?

I dont think he does. I think he just means focus on the wizard side (int) and let the cleric lag a bit (wis)

Well then that one is totally sub-optimal to the Wis-based version using the Empyreal Sorcerer! Unless you really hate Sorcerers. :)

CRobledo wrote:

cartmanbeck wrote:

Well then that one is totally sub-optimal to the Wis-based version using the Empyreal Sorcerer! Unless you really hate Sorcerers. :)

I beg to disagree. I built out one for fun and doing 17 INT and 17 WIS (bump one at 4 and one at 8) Lawbringer Aasimar is really all you need for a lot of MT builds. I would play him as a buffer, so no need for high DCs.

Plus, using levels of sorcerer or oracle slows your spell progression even more. So actually, wizard/cleric is the perfect combo if your goal is to get to the higher level spells faster. Sorcerer is allright if you hve a use for the bloodline powers, but I'm fine with my specialized school powers and faster spell progression.

CRobledo is correct. I meant focusing on the Wizard and Intelligence, and keeping the Cleric side low-Wis focusing on support spells. It may or may not be as optimal as a single-attribute dependent (SAD) Theurge, but I like the flavor and I'm sure you could make a version that's plenty powerful enough to pull your weight.

[Dhjika]

andreww wrote:

Truesight wrote:

A Trickery domain Cleric with the Fate Inquisition gives both Arcane and Divine 2nd level spell qualifications.

Only if you consider Copycat to be the same as mirror image. It creates one image which operates like one created by the mirror image spell. It's potentially arguable and I would be cautious about using it at a PFS table where the GM could unilaterally declare you to be illegal.

Fate Inquisition can be gained worshiping

Nethys, Norgorber, or Pharasma

So the only God you could be of is Norgorber - and the only alignment True Nuetral, correct?

[andreww]

Dhjika wrote:

andreww wrote:

Truesight wrote:

A Trickery domain Cleric with the Fate Inquisition gives both Arcane and Divine 2nd level spell qualifications.

Only if you consider Copycat to be the same as mirror image. It creates one image which operates like one created by the mirror image spell. It's potentially arguable and I would be cautious about using it at a PFS table where the GM could unilaterally declare you to be illegal.

Fate Inquisition can be gained worshiping

Nethys, Norgorber, or Pharasma

So the only God you could be of is Norgorber - and the only alignment True Nuetral, correct?

Separatist Cleric archetype works as well

[Dhjika]

andreww wrote:

Dhjika wrote:

andreww wrote:

Truesight wrote:

A Trickery domain Cleric with the Fate Inquisition gives both Arcane and Divine 2nd level spell qualifications.

Only if you consider Copycat to be the same as mirror image. It creates one image which operates like one created by the mirror image spell. It's potentially arguable and I would be cautious about using it at a PFS table where the GM could unilaterally declare you to be illegal.

Fate Inquisition can be gained worshiping

Nethys, Norgorber, or Pharasma

So the only God you could be of is Norgorber - and the only alignment True Nuetral, correct?

Separatist Cleric archetype works as well

So could you use your non-god domain to substitute it for the inquisition?

[Joe M.]

Dhjika wrote:

andreww wrote:

Separatist Cleric archetype works as well

So could you use your non-god domain to substitute it for the inquisition?

Yep. If I'm reading the Separatist correctly, it looks unproblematic to take the Fate Inquisition as your second domain via Forbidden Rites.

[CRobledo]

Yep. And worst-case-scenario, you could always pick Fate Inquisition as your main domain, and another domain with Forbidden Rites.

[Todd Morgan]

Musetouched Aasimar has Glitterdust as an SLA. If I went one level for Sorcerer and one level of Oracle with the Ancestor Mystery (taking Wisdom of the Ancestors) would that qualify as a Divine SLA for the purposes of qualifying for MT?

[Joe M.]

Todd Morgan wrote:

Musetouched Aasimar has Glitterdust as an SLA. If I went one level for Sorcerer and one level of Oracle with the Ancestor Mystery (taking Wisdom of the Ancestors) would that qualify as a Divine SLA for the purposes of qualifying for MT?

Nope. Wisdom of the Ancestors won't work for the same reason that Automatic Writing from the Lore Mystery won't work – it's a supernatural ability, not a spell-like ability:

Ancestor Mystery wrote:

Wisdom of the Ancestors (Su): Once per day, you can enter a trance in which you commune with the spirits of your ancestors. This trance lasts for 10 minutes, which must be uninterrupted and during which you can take no other actions. When you come out of this trance, you have gained mystical insight into the future. At 1st level, this insight acts as an augury spell

[RainyDayNinja]

Has anyone compiled a list of useful SLAs for qualifying for Prestige Classes? I thought I had seen at least one 3rd level arcane SLA other than Aasimar daylight.

[Yiroep]

Would chronicle boons work for this if they supplied a spell like ability usable 1/day?

[Kyle Baird]

Not real helpful but Fetchlings get a 6th level SLA when they hit 9th level. :-)

[Yiroep]

So, can I get an SLA and qualify for DD, then level my arcane levels in the PRC as a wizard?

[Jiggy]

Yiroep wrote:

So, can I get an SLA and qualify for DD, then level my arcane levels in the PRC as a wizard?

Dragon Disciple wrote:

He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

Emphasis mine.

[Joe M.]

Yiroep wrote:

So, can I get an SLA and qualify for DD, then level my arcane levels in the PRC as a wizard?

DD = Dragon Disciple?

Yes. Since spell-like abilities satisfy "able to cast XXX spells" prerequisites, I assume they would also satisfy the Dragon Disciple's "without preparation" prerequisite–since you don't prepare them.

So Dragon Wizard is a go.

[Yiroep]

Actually, Magus may be a better option for DD than wizard.

Magus 4/Barbarian 1/DD X? Or Bladebound Magus 5/DD X? Or Alchemist (maybe Ragechemist) 2/Magus 2/Barbarian 1/DD X? Oh, the possibilities.

[Todd Morgan]

So what can you use to qualify for MT as a Musetouched Aasimar Oracle/Sorcerer?

[Jiggy]

Todd Morgan wrote:

So what can you use to qualify for MT as a Musetouched Aasimar Oracle/Sorcerer?

Well, as a musetouched aasimar you already have your 2nd-level arcane spell prereq, so that leaves 2nd-level divine spells and some skill ranks.

Assuming you're asking about early-entry, you can get a divine SLA via the Fate inquisition or the Wood oracle mystery (taking the Bend the Grain revelation).

Then it's just the skill rank prereqs remaining.

[CRobledo]

Wood mystery and associated revelation?

Edit: Ninja by Jiggy! But Todd was asking for Oracle, so no Fate inquistion.

[sieylianna]

I'm not at all happy about this. I gave up LFR following a similar rule change. I have a tiefling rogue/sorcerer who just made 7th level and will be able to start taking Arcane Trickster levels. It was annoying that I had to spend a feat on Additional Traits to get Magical Knack, but I did it. Now this ruling has invalidated all the work I put into this character. Arcane Trickster is a marginal class, even more so when you are dealing with the PFS rules, but when you have a lot of characters, you want some variety.

[Robert A Matthews]

sieylianna wrote:

I'm not at all happy about this. I gave up LFR following a similar rule change. I have a tiefling rogue/sorcerer who just made 7th level and will be able to start taking Arcane Trickster levels. It was annoying that I had to spend a feat on Additional Traits to get Magical Knack, but I did it. Now this ruling has invalidated all the work I put into this character. Arcane Trickster is a marginal class, even more so when you are dealing with the PFS rules, but when you have a lot of characters, you want some variety.

I'm curious, what about this ruling invalidates your character's current progress?

[Mergy]

There is something to be argued for those who took the hard path prior to this ruling. It's great that there's now an easier path to these relatively weak prestige classes, but it's too bad that older characters are unable to take advantage of these changes.

[BigNorseWolf]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

There is something to be argued for those who took the hard path prior to this ruling. It's great that there's now an easier path to these relatively weak prestige classes, but it's too bad that older characters are unable to take advantage of these changes.

Lets see if this ruling lasts...

[Mergy]

It's been mentioned several times that the developers are aware of what they're doing. What say we trust them?

[CWheezy]

TBH a lot of prestige classes are terrible, so I don't mind any buffs to them

[Bigdaddyjug]

You may be able to re-build your character once Ultimate Campaign becomes legal for PFS.

[CRobledo]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

There is something to be argued for those who took the hard path prior to this ruling. It's great that there's now an easier path to these relatively weak prestige classes, but it's too bad that older characters are unable to take advantage of these changes.

The same can be said about everything Mergy. A lot of older players with pet classes wish they had the option to incorporate new rules from Animal Archive when that came out. Or people that had started Fighter/Wizards and Ultimate Magic came out they could have been playing a Magus instead.

It's the nature of the beast.

[Kyle Baird]

Be a tier 1 GM at Gen Con and get a special boon that allows a full rebuild. There's always a way.

[David Bowles]

I agree with CWheezy.

[RainyDayNinja]

I started a new FAQ for SLAs based on spells that don't duplicate them exactly. Go and FAQ it!

[Jiggy]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

I started a new FAQ for SLAs based on spells that don't duplicate them exactly. Go and FAQ it!

And now SKR has confirmed that if an SLA cites a spell, you use the spell's level.

[andreww]

Jiggy wrote:

RainyDayNinja wrote:

I started a new FAQ for SLAs based on spells that don't duplicate them exactly. Go and FAQ it!

And now SKR has confirmed that if an SLA cites a spell, you use the spell's level.

Yep, Cleric (Fate/Trickery)2/Sorcerer(Empyreal)1/Mystic Theurgex is now completely race agnostic and ends up with level 6 Cleric spells and Level 5 Wizard spells all working off Wisdom.

Something like this, a sort of reverse Angel Summoner.

Infernal Summoner:

Human Cleric (Asmodeus, Separatist) 2 Mystic Theurge 9 Sorcerer (Wildblooded) 1
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +29

--------------------
Defense
--------------------

AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 89 (2d8+10d6+36)
Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +23
Defensive Abilities copy cat (su) (12/day)

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks heavenly fire (12/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Augury (1/day), Copy Cat (Su) (12/day)

Sorcerer (Wildblooded) Spells Known (CL 12):

5 (5/day) Summon Monster V
4 (7/day) Invisibility, Greater, Summon Monster IV
3 (8/day) Stinking Cloud (DC 23), Dispel Magic, Suggestion (DC22)
2 (8/day) Create Pit (DC 22), Mirror Image, Glitterdust (DC 22), Blindness/Deafness (DC 21)
1 (9/day) Liberating Command, Silent Image (DC 20), Mage Armor, Charm Person (DC 20), Disguise Self
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Disrupt Undead, Message, Light, Mage Hand, Open/Close (DC 19), Ghost Sound (DC 19), Prestidigitation (DC 19)

Cleric (Separatist) Spells Prepared (CL 11):

6 (2/day) Heal, Summon Monster VI, Confusion, Prstnt (DC 23)
5 (4/day) Breath of Life (DC 25), Plane Shift (DC 25), Commune, Shield of Faith, Quick
4 (5/day) Death Ward, Blessing of Fervour x2, Confusion (DC 23) x2, Freedom of Movement, Air Walk
3 (6/day) Invisibility Purge, Speak with Dead (DC 22), Stone Shape, Nondetection, Sanctuary, Prstnt (DC 20), Delay Poison, Communal, Resist Energy, Communal
2 (6/day) Silence (DC 21), Resist Energy, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Invisibility, Grace, Grace
1 (7/day) Shield of Faith, Shield of Faith, Shield of Faith, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary (DC 20), Sanctuary (DC 20), Sanctuary (DC 20), Disguise Self
0 (at will) Guidance, Stabilize, Detect Magic, Detect Poison

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------

Str 7, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 28, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 16

Feats: Augment Summoning, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Sacred Summons, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Superior Summoning

NB: Nothing in Sacred Summons says it only affects Divine Summon Monster Spells. If it does just load out on some Cleric Summons and instead grab more battlefield control. I recommend Black Tentacles and Wall of Force.

Traits: Magical Knack (Sorcerer [Wildblooded]), Underbridge Dweller (Magnimar)

Skills: Bluff +5, Diplomacy +16, Disguise +5, Fly +7, Heal +11, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +29, Sense Motive +24, Spellcraft +11, Use Magic Device +5

Languages Celestial, Common, Infernal

Special Qualities aura, cleric channel negative energy 1d6 (1/day) (dc 9), combined spells (5th), domains (trickery), forbidden rites (fate inquisition), mutated bloodlines (empyreal), spontaneous casting

Equipment: Mithral Buckler, Amulet of natural armour +1, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Circlet of persuasion, Cloak of resistance +4, Eyes of the eagle, Feather step slippers, Gloves of elvenkind, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, Wayfinder

I am still not convinced it is stronger than a single classed Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer but it's no slouch in the casting department.

[CWheezy]

I don't know if it ever could be but "Not as strong as a single classed wizard" is basically everything in the game.

You still get a lot of solid spells so it is definitely playable, and the flavour is cool.

[andreww]

True I was just trying to preempt some of the knee jerk claims of brokenness some have made about the recent ruling change. Frankly while paragon surge oracles still exist I am not sure we can really call anything broken.

[David Bowles]

In general, I think that archetypes give birth to far more broken PCs than prestige classes.

[Azten]

andreww wrote:

Yep, Cleric (Fate/Trickery)2/Sorcerer(Empyreal)1/Mystic Theurgex is now completely race agnostic and ends up with level 6 Cleric spells and Level 5 Wizard spells all working off Wisdom.

Where is the 2nd level divine spell coming from?

[Quandary]

Fate Inquisition: Augury is wholly incontroversially 2nd level Divine...

[andreww]

Yep copycat and augury give you both the casting requirements.

[Azten]

Ooohhh, I forgot about Inquisitions! I thought it was the Fate subdomain... >.>

[Bigdaddyjug]

Why Asmodeus? Did you pick him solely because of the Trickery domain?

[CWheezy]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Why Asmodeus? Did you pick him solely because of the Trickery domain?

He is a pretty cool deity as well

[CRobledo]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Why Asmodeus? Did you pick him solely because of the Trickery domain?

Probably. Even with separatist you need to pick a deity that has either the Trickery domain or the Fate inquisition. Without separatist, there is only Norgorber that has both.

Then the problem is you will have to negative channel and more importantly, spontaneously cast inflicts.

[andreww]

The channel thing is irrelevant as it doesnt advance. I picked asmodeus as he is lawful evil so you get various standard action summons with sacred summons. That he has trickery is also helpful although I am sure there are plenty of other options out there.

[andreww]

I also dont consider spontaneous inflict an ssue as I will never want to be casting rubbish cure spells in combat when I could be hitting hard control effects.

[Bigdaddyjug]

I'm looking to build one of these MTs to play, I just don't know how I'll like just summoning and battlefield controlling.

[andreww]

It has lots of different ways to build. You cant cover everything no class can but the focus could just as easily include blasing instead of summoning or scouting instead of control.

[Luthril]

I'll link a couple for you Bigdaddyjug... these don't rely on the SLA thing, but I think both are cool... both are built out to 12 so if you like the end result, let me know and I can give you the level 1 starting point

Burner:

Sorc/Orc MT BURNER
Male Gnome Mystic Theurge 4 Oracle 4 Sorcerer (Wildblooded) 4
CG Small Humanoid (gnome)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 22 (+7 armor, +4 shield, +1 size)
hp 91 (4d8+8d6+36)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +11
Resist fire 20
Weakness oracle's curses (blackened)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks elemental ray (12/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Dancing Lights (1/day), Flare (1/day), Prestidigitation (1/day), Produce Flame (1/day)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 8):
4 (5/day) Cure Critical Wounds, Restoration
3 (7/day) Protection from Energy, Prayer, Cure Serious Wounds
2 (8/day) Restoration, Lesser, Resist Energy, Flaming Sphere (DC 25), Scorching Ray, Sound Burst (DC 23), Cure Moderate Wounds, Eagle's Splendor
1 (9/day) Liberating Command, Bless, Endure Elements, Burning Hands (DC 24), Burning Hands (DC 24), Sanctuary (DC 20), Cure Light Wounds, Sun Metal (DC 22)
0 (at will) Resistance, Spark (DC 21), Read Magic, Detect Magic, Mending, Create Water, Guidance, Light
Sorcerer (Wildblooded) Spells Known (CL 8):
4 (5/day) Firefall (DC 25)
3 (7/day) Protection from Energy, Haste, Fireball (DC 26)
2 (8/day) Flaming Sphere (DC 25), Scorching Ray (bloodline energy type), Burning Arc (DC 25), Fire Breath (DC 25)
1 (9/day) Magic Missile, Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Burning Hands (bloodline energy type) (DC 24), Feather Fall (DC 20), Burning Disarm (DC 22)
0 (at will) Disrupt Undead, Arcane Mark, Acid Splash, Open/Close (DC 19), Detect Poison, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation (DC 19), Message
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 6, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 28
Base Atk +7; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Arcane Armor Training, Combat Casting, Elemental Focus (Fire), Eschew Materials, Greater Elemental Focus (Fire), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Evocation)
Traits Etymologist, Indomitable Faith
Skills Appraise +10, Bluff +19, Diplomacy +21, Fly +2, Heal +4, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (religion) +12, Linguistics +10, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +4
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Hallit, Infernal, Kelish, Orc, Osiriani, Shoanti, Sylvan, Vudrani
SQ combined spells (2nd), mutated bloodlines (primal [fire]), mysteries (flame), revelations (burning magic [1/spell level, 1d4 rounds], cinder dance)
Combat Gear Intensified metamagic rod (lesser) (3/day); Other Gear +3 Mithral Chain shirt, +3 Mithral Buckler, Headband of alluring charisma +6, Robe of arcane heritage, 150 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Armor Training Swift action: -10% arcane spell failure due to armor.
Blackened Your hands and forearms are shriveled and blackened. You take a –4 penalty on weapon attack rolls
Burning Magic (1/spell level, 1d4 rounds) (Su) Whenever a creature fails a saving throw and takes fire damage from one of your spells, it catches on fire. This fire deals 1 point of fire damage per spell level at the beginning of the burning creature’s turn. The fire lasts for 1d4 rounds, but it
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Combined Spells (2nd) (Su) You can prepare the spells of one spellcasting class using another classes' slots.
Damage Resistance, Fire (20) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Dancing Lights (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Dancing Lights once per day.
Darkvision (60 feet) (Darkvision) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Elemental Focus (Fire) +1 DC to spells that deal damage of the chosen energy.
Elemental Ray (12/day) (Sp) Ranged touch attack deals 1d6+4 Fire damage.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Flare (Pyromaniac) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Flare once per day.
Greater Elemental Focus (Fire) +1 DC to spells that deal damage of the chosen energy.
Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) +1 to the Save DC of spells from one school.

Another to follow shortly.

[andreww]

No offence intended but that set up is awful. Base theurge is bad enough but tacking it to two delayed spell access casters is painful. By level 9 you are still casting level 2 spells and three quarters of your career is over. That is worse than the bard.

I am also struggling with your sorcerer spells known which has lots of redundant fire spells on it. Even if building to a theme you have loads of overlap there which cuts down on your versatility.