|
For all those worried about "increased staying power", in PFS the sorcerer doesn't really have this issue beyond about 3rd-4th level anyway. Beyond those levels I think my 11 sor could probably count on 1 hand the number of times he ran out of spells in any slot other than his top one.Did you build your sorcerer to have spammable prebuffs, though, knowing you would have tons of slots? I'm talking the evergreen low level spells that can save your butt all the way up to 20th.
Fair enough. I normally only have 2 sometimes 3 buffs I make a real effort to keep running from personal spells. My main spell-like buff I get from a magic item.
I am not saying that there will not be any benefits to this build, in fact I think it one of about three that benefited enough to become viable after the faq, but I don't see it as game breaking. But I am also willing to concede that maximizing buff spells are not where I devote a lot of my in game or out of game resources.
I know the idea of the "highest spell slot only" is very popular, but if this were so, then sorcerers would be irrecoverably behind wizards at all odd levels, not even able to compete, and I just don't think that's the case, from plenty of play at a variety of levels.
The Cleric2/EmpSorc1/MT has the same highest spell level as a Wizard or Cleric at all even levels--and it's never behind an oracle or sorcerer on that front, at any level. It has huge versatility and phenomenal staying power--I haven't done the math, but it should be a substantial increase from the math I did above for Cleric3.
I also failed to note lost class features, by mistake. Druids lose out on Wildshape (which is very powerful, and scaling is important, even for casters... hummingbirds and bats make great Blaster or Summoner forms), Wizards on School Powers and their shiny new discoveries and feats, Sorcerers are unlikely to see any of their higher level Bloodline abilities, Oracles will pay through the nose for more Revelations...
In exchange, you get a second, weaker spell progression.
I agree thats now good, as it hasn't crippled your primary spellcasting. Is it better than a pure class? That may depend on class features.
Is it getting your something you couldn't previously obtain via UMD? I think that's more relevant.
|
|
For all those worried about "increased staying power", in PFS the sorcerer doesn't really have this issue beyond about 3rd-4th level anyway. Beyond those levels I think my 11 sor could probably count on 1 hand the number of times he ran out of spells in any slot other than his top one.Did you build your sorcerer to have spammable prebuffs, though, knowing you would have tons of slots? I'm talking the evergreen low level spells that can save your butt all the way up to 20th.Fair enough. I normally only have 2 sometimes 3 buffs I make a real effort to keep running from personal spells. My main spell-like buff I get from a magic item.
I am not saying that there will not be any benefits to this build, in fact I think it one of about three that benefited enough to become viable after the faq, but I don't see it as game breaking. But I am also willing to concede that maximizing buff spells are not where I devote a lot of my in game or out of game resources.
There are lots of different ways to play an awesome sorcerer! However, a friend and I spent a while going through long-duration spells and comparing the cost of buying those items for the party vs the cost of buying enough Pearls of Power to cast the spells on everyone, and we discovered that you can optimize your WBL greatly if you use the spells and buy more slots. For instance, 44k and a ring slot for a Ring of Greater Fire Resistance for one PC or 4k per character for a Pearl of Power 2 to recover your 12th level buddy's 2 hour duration resist energy enough times to get it up on everyone (you can get double the duration of a bunch of your low level prebuffs for 16k more by having your cleric cast blessing of fervor right before you cast them and then recovering the spell). 12k and eyes slot for Goggles of Night for one PC or 4k to recover a darkvision spell that lasts 12 hours. 40k for a Ring of Freedom of Movement or 16k for 120 minutes of the spell. At least 16k per armor for a +4 armor and 32k per weapon for a +4 weapon (but probably a whole lot more if you have any special enhancements on your armor or weapon) vs 20k for a karma bead and 9k per armor 16k per weapon to use magic vestment and greater magic weapon for 12 hours. Etc. So pricing the power of those extra slots, if they're used for buffs, is cheap using the PoP index. If we actually priced the cost of permanent magic items we could save by doing this (and that we could spend on other things), we'd make quite a fortune.
|
|
In light of the new ways to get both the divine and arcane SLAs, reanalyzing for Sor2/Ora1/MT vs full Sorcerer:
Levels 1-2: You level everything in sorcerer, no loss in slots.
Level 3: You now have way more slots (possibly 11 vs 5) than the pure sorcerer and divine versatility. You are massively stronger than the straight sorcerer right now.
Level 4: Straight sorcerer now has these 5 2nd level spells that you don't have. All you have to show for it are 6 1st level divine spells. Versatility is nice, but the sorcerer is annihilating you in PoP index. This is bad.
Level 5: You are back ahead in slots. You've lost exactly 1 2nd level spell per day in order to gain 7 1st-level divine. Advantage to you.
Level 6: You have 8/5 divine but the sorcerer is up 0/1/4 arcane. PoP index says advantage sorcerer, and it's certainly true.
Level 7: Now you're down 0/1/1 arcane and you have 8/6 divine. Massive advantage to you.
Level 8: Straight sorcerer has 1 3rd and 4 4th on you. But you have 8/7/5 divine. You are ahead in PoP index, but sorcerer has that one 4th spell known. I hope it's a good one for sorcerer, or else you're in the lead for sure.
Level 9: Straight sorcerer has 1 3rd and 1 4th on you. Meanwhile, you have 8/8/6 divine. You are now annihilating the sorcerer 94k to 25k in PoP index.
Level 10: Straight sorcerer has 1 4th and 4 5th. You have 8/8/7/4 divine. That's 116k for the sorcerer and 167k for you. Again, hope that sorcerer has a really special 5th level spell known or else you're ahead big-time.
Level 11: Sorcerer is 1 4th and 1 5th ahead of you in arcane slots. That's 41k in PoP index. You have 8/8/8/5 divine, so that's 192k. Wow! You're annihilating.
Level 12: Sorcerer is up 1 5th and also has 4 6th level slots. That's 169k. Unfortunately for the sorcerer, you now have 8/8/8/7/5 divine, which is worth 349k. That's over double the value of the sorcerer's extra slots, a massive gain, no matter what the sorcerer's 1 6th level spell known is.
Level 13: You just capstoned to your triple cast. But you didn't need to capstone to be ahead of the sorcerer big time. Now that you have 6th level spells too, you're behind a measly 5th and 6th arcane slots (61k) and you're ahead an astounding 8/8/8/8/6 divine slots (390k). That's over six times! And you got your capstone this level! Holy smoke!
|
|
40k for a Ring of Freedom of Movement or 16k for 120 minutes of the spell.I'll take the 40k for the ring please. FoM is one of those spells you don't need until you need it, and if you don't have it on before you need it, it can really hurt.
Sure, you don't need it until you need it, and you need to have it before you need it. That's why you prebuff it. You can provide a pearl to have it cast on you losslessly and a rod of extend for far less than the ring's cost (and the rod has two charges left after that). Four hours of prebuff will cover pretty much anything except night ambushes if you don't rest in an extradimensional hidey hole by that level. Sure, the ring isn't pointless, but in the other examples, for resist energy the ring is insanely expensive (so much so that you could buy enough pearls to cast the spell over and over to last the whole day), and the others are hour per level (extended to the whle day long). I probably should have only posted the other examples, I guess. The presence of one of them where you would sometimes want the permanent item doesn't negate the fact that the others I've listed are pure gain, even if you cast them 24/7.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
So what I'm reading is that someone whose preferred concept to play is someone who focuses purely on casting spells and nothing else - as opposed to wanting to play any of the myriad other magical concepts that might include things like domain powers, channeling, bloodline powers, and so forth - can finally do so by using the PrC made specifically for that purpose and actually be better at that one chosen schtick than someone who wanted a broader concept and kept all the bells and whistles of a base class, instead of the base classes being better at both.
Sounds fine to me. :)
|
|
So what I'm reading is that someone whose preferred concept to play is someone who focuses purely on casting spells and nothing else - as opposed to wanting to play any of the myriad other magical concepts that might include things like domain powers, channeling, bloodline powers, and so forth - can finally do so by using the PrC made specifically for that purpose and actually be better at that one chosen schtick than someone who wanted a broader concept and kept all the bells and whistles of a base class, instead of the base classes being better at both.
Sounds fine to me. :)
It's a matter of scale, Jiggy.
I know you're fond of pointing out logical flaws in anyone's arguments--I've been the recipient of some of your incisive analysis before. So I know you won't take it personally if I go ad absurdum and point out that the argument you used there could be used to justify a prestige class that traded away all those domain powers, channeling, bloodline powers, and so forth to gain 100 spells per day, or to gain 9th level spells at 11th level, or so forth.
Now assuming we agree that you can't just say that sacrificing those class powers is worth an arbitrary amount of spells, there must be some amount of spells that it is worth, call it N. I believe that the amount of gain I've shown at some of those levels (13 in particular is crazy) is beyond the pale and far more than N. We can reasonably disagree on that N, of course, but we shouldn't dismiss that it exists.
How much experience have people here had with the basic mystic theurge. I don't want to dismiss any opinions due to lack of experience, but I'll say that I had one in my Rise of the Runelords game (played by my friend who discussed the pearls of power with me) all the way out to the end, and he opened my eyes to a variety of things with respect to the theurge (Preferred Spell, Spell Perfection, and casting the perfected spell spontaneously out of both arcane and divine slots using Spell Blending was pretty awesome, for one). Don't get me wrong--it still wasn't overpowering, and the other characters were also very very powerful, but if he had been able to use the "new theurge", he would have been a monster.
EDIT: And we're home everybody! After switching to I think all of Advice, Rules, and General Discussion!
|
|
Thank you for the break down Rogue Eidolon. It is worth noting that the straight class character is ahead 2 feat choices and a racial choice (probably human) over the multiclassed character as well. Not that such makes it even, but it does help a bit.
Good points! The two feats would be bloodline, so constrained a bit. If they pick human, they get yet another feat, any feat of their choice, but the Musetouched Aasimar does get free darkvision and a glitterdust to throw around, the latter of which is actually a pretty big deal at low levels, in addition to some extra Dex that the Human doesn't get.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
So I know you won't take it personally
That's my aim. :)
the argument you used there could be used to justify a prestige class that traded away all those domain powers, channeling, bloodline powers, and so forth to gain 100 spells per day, or to gain 9th level spells at 11th level, or so forth.
Fair point.
Now assuming we agree that you can't just say that sacrificing those class powers is worth an arbitrary amount of spells, there must be some amount of spells that it is worth, call it N.
Good approach; yes, I agree that N exists somewhere.
I believe that the amount of gain I've shown at some of those levels (13 in particular is crazy) is beyond the pale and far more than N. We can reasonably disagree on that N, of course, but we shouldn't dismiss that it exists.
Hmm... We'll definitely need to establish, if not N precisely, at least a general range of N. At least, if we want to determine if "The New and Improved MT" goes beyond N.
Additionally, I'd like to clarify part of N's definition: it's not just scaling class features that are given up, but you also have to take specific races, use certain feats, etc. That means you lose options like being a human to jumpstart feat chains, and so forth. Also, you lose out on FCBs, which in the case of some casters can be huge: a human sorcerer can have more arcane spells known than the MT, by a mile. A kitsune enchanter can add +1 to his DCs every 4 levels (on top of a base +1 which, to my knowledge, you can't get with this MT build as I'm not aware of a kitsune build for this version of MT).
"N" definitely still exists, but we have to remember to count all the costs when determining what N's value should be.
How much experience have people here had with the basic mystic theurge.
Perhaps you could repeat your analysis, comparing a straight sorcerer to a traditional MT?
|
One way that I've seen is to take an Aasimar (standard/no alternate heritage); that gives you Daylight (3rd level arcane spell). Taking Heavenly Radiance at 3rd allows you to nab Wake of Light (2nd level divine spell).
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
One way that I've seen is to take an Aasimar (standard/no alternate heritage); that gives you Daylight (3rd level arcane spell). Taking Heavenly Radiance at 3rd allows you to nab Wake of Light (2nd level divine spell).
Daylight works for Eldritch Knight, but MT requires 2nd-level, not 3rd-level, so you'll need to actually have two exactly-2nd-level SLAs to pull this off.
And oh my god, I just realized that as a Sorc/Ora/MT you don't even need UMD to use any spell trigger item on either the cleric or wizard spell list.
A half-elf oracle can already do this via the Arcane Training alternate racial trait, though on scrolls higher than 1st level he'd still need to make an easy CL check.
|
|
So I know you won't take it personallyThat's my aim. :)
the argument you used there could be used to justify a prestige class that traded away all those domain powers, channeling, bloodline powers, and so forth to gain 100 spells per day, or to gain 9th level spells at 11th level, or so forth.Fair point.
Now assuming we agree that you can't just say that sacrificing those class powers is worth an arbitrary amount of spells, there must be some amount of spells that it is worth, call it N.Good approach; yes, I agree that N exists somewhere.
I believe that the amount of gain I've shown at some of those levels (13 in particular is crazy) is beyond the pale and far more than N. We can reasonably disagree on that N, of course, but we shouldn't dismiss that it exists.Hmm... We'll definitely need to establish, if not N precisely, at least a general range of N. At least, if we want to determine if "The New and Improved MT" goes beyond N.
Additionally, I'd like to clarify part of N's definition: it's not just scaling class features that are given up, but you also have to take specific races, use certain feats, etc. That means you lose options like being a human to jumpstart feat chains, and so forth. Also, you lose out on FCBs, which in the case of some casters can be huge: a human sorcerer can have more arcane spells known than the MT, by a mile. A kitsune enchanter can add +1 to his DCs every 4 levels (on top of a base +1 which, to my knowledge, you can't get with this MT build as I'm not aware of a kitsune build for this version of MT).
"N" definitely still exists, but we have to remember to count all the costs when determining what N's value should be.
How much experience have people here had with the basic mystic theurge.Perhaps you could repeat your analysis, comparing a straight sorcerer to a traditional MT?
No time right now--I'll see if I can get something up by next Wednesday. Basically, I can paint in broad strokes that the basic theurge is vastly behind in terms of highest level spells (just doesn't have the highest level at all and only starts picking up a huge advantage a few levels below the cap) and has to make up for that with a combination of the versatility of two spell lists and an extreme number of lower level spells. There are, however, still some spells that are enormous gamechangers at the highest levels (like telekinetic charge with reach spell if necessary if you have powerful melee characters) even when you have much higher level spells available. Looking at what he received on paper, spell slot for spell slot, I didn't think it was possible for my friend to make a powerful theurge either, but I was proved wrong in play. He used a lot of tricks beyond the Preferred Spell/Spell Perfection I mentioned above, and BigDaddyJug has alluded to one of them--he had extreme ability to use spell trigger and completion items without UMD. With Pearls of Power (and coordinating the other casters around what he had), he ensured that buffs were ever-flowing. There was a lot going on.
|
Current ways:
1. Standard Aasimar with Heavenly Radiance - Don't recommend it... table variation on this one... daylight is a 3rd level spell and MT specifies 2nd level.
2. Tiefling/Aasimar (other heritage)/Kitsune/any legal race with a lvl 2 SLA + another way to get a divine SLA. Notably Wood mystery oracle with the correct revelation, Inquisitor or Cleric with the Fate Inquisition.
3. Without these above, you can get entry at level 5. Level 3 cleric + level 1 arcane anything.
|
|
My current theoretical build for a GM credit baby I have is wizard 1 (transmuter)/separatist cleric of Iomedae 2 (Tactics/Fate Inquisiton). Lawbringer Aasimar.
lots of buffs (+stats from transmuter, grant initiative rerolls from tactics), later get haste, and some nice cleric buffs, later on pick Spell Specialization (Dispel Magic) and Dispel Synergy. 15 CON (bumped to 16 with transmuter) and 17 Wis and 17 Int (to be bumped at levels 4 and 8). Magical Knack (wizard) of course.
|
So to actually pull off the fastest MT, you have to have oracle as your "primary" casting class, rather than sorcerer? I wonder how that affects the value, if at all.
No reason you'd have to have Oracle as your primary. With the right race, you could go Sorcerer 2 / Wood Oracle 1 / MT.
Or, as CRobledo points out, you can use the Fate Inquisition to get your 2nd-level divine SLA (augury, only on the Cleric spell list).
Since you can pick up an inquisition in place of a domain, you could go [arcane] 2 / Cleric 1 / MT.
|
|
I realize there will be a lot of assumptions going into this, but I did a fast comparison of your mystic theurge and a bloatmage (without early entry, which would make the bloatmage slightly better, but again, your arguments are for why this skews power level, and that would hardly change anything).
Honestly I'd wait to enter bloatmage until 5th simply for the bonus feat, but you could enter at 2nd level if you wanted to, albeit by being a default aasimar, who wouldn't get the int modifier, and thus would lose some bonus spells from the progressionThe bloatmage, without early entry has the following wizard spell slots (specialist wizard, no bonded object, bloating for average efficiently throughout day, highest level spell slot used, on two bloats can take one rounded up, other rounded down)
** spoiler omitted **
Which using the PoP index you posted, gives this equivalent gold (mystic thurge is first column)
** spoiler omitted **Which I think is fairly comparable.
While it's true that slot value is quadratic, taking average is a big leg up to the level 1, 2, or 4 bloatmage, given that the level 1 bloatmage has a 50% chance to go crazy if he bloats, a level 2 has a 25% chance to go crazy. Level 3 never goes crazy if only bloating at 0 points. Level 4 has at least a 12.5% chance to go crazy for each bloat (assuming that you always leave your pool at 0 before each bloat, which limits which slots you can use and thus lowers your PoP index). At all other levels, you never go crazy if bloating at 0 points. Keep in mind that even being hit by a bleeding effect causes you to lose 1 blood point even if you are healed up before you actually take the bleed damage, so if you aren't using the blood points solely for buffs and running yourself dry at all times, you can wind up losing all of them to a full attack from something with bleed on each attack.
I'm not sure if you have the time, but I would have been more interested to see a comparison for a sorcerer bloatmage, since this is the spontaneous version of the theurge rather than the Cleric2/EmpSor1 version which would be better to compare to a wizard bloatmage.
|
|
You can reduce the bloating chance by either choosing to apply leeches to yourself when preparing spells, or with the awesome Fortifying Leeches item. The second make the chance of going crazy almost negligible.
|
|
You can reduce the bloating chance by either choosing to apply leeches to yourself when preparing spells, or with the awesome Fortifying Leeches item. The second make the chance of going crazy almost negligible.
You lose two con for the former, and the latter will probably die at higher levels (when 20 damage from AoE is a love-tap), but they are certainly a useful consideration.
EDIT: By the way, you guys rock! I love how we can really dig in to this and try to make an analysis together, regardless of our opinion, rather than getting caught up on rhetoric like in some of the other threads on this topic. In my opinion, this is definitely the most productive of these threads.
|
|
You lose two con for the former, and the latter will probably die at higher levels (when 20 damage from AoE is a love-tap), but they are certainly a useful consideration.
I have yet to loose mine once (level 10 now) ;) go go protection from energy!
EDIT: By the way, you guys rock! I love how we can really dig in to this and try to make an analysis together, regardless of our opinion, rather than getting caught up on rhetoric like in some of the other threads on this topic. In my opinion, this is definitely the most productive of these threads.
I agree, and love the theorycrafting. Accurate or not, the "PoP index" amuses me greatly. I myself had always wanted to make a Mystic Theurge, since I never got to play on in the 3.x days (where I am told they were the bomb) so actually having them be viable in any way in PF greatly interest me.
I'll leave the "morality" issues of these changes to others that care more and the powers that be ;)
|
|
By the way, you guys rock! I love how we can really dig in to this and try to make an analysis together, regardless of our opinion, rather than getting caught up on rhetoric like in some of the other threads on this topic. In my opinion, this is definitely the most productive of these threads.
+1 to that.
I'm looking at three different MT possibilities right now.
Int-based Emberkin Wizard 2 / Cleric 1 / MT
Wis-based Plumekith Cleric 2 / Empyreal Sorcerer 1 / MT
Cha-based Musetouched Sorcerer 2 / Wood Oracle 1 / MT
|
|
Excellent chart, I like it! My theurge has slightly higher Charisma than your chart indicates (point buy 17 for a starting 19, becomes 22 at level 4 due to stat raise and +2 item, then 24 at level 7 with a +4 stat item and 28 at level 12 with a +6 stat item and two more stat raises). Of course, the extra stat boost should apply to all three casters, but since the theurge double-dips on bonus spells, this will provide a noticable boost for the theurge. If you really optimize Charisma to 20 at level 1, it boosts the theurge even more from levels 1 to 3 and from levels 8 to 11.
|
|
Excellent chart, I like it! My theurge has slightly higher Charisma than your chart indicates (point buy 17 for a starting 19, becomes 22 at level 4 due to stat raise and +2 item, then 24 at level 7 with a +4 stat item and 28 at level 12 with a +6 stat item and two more stat raises). Of course, the extra stat boost should apply to all three casters, but since the theurge double-dips on bonus spells, this will provide a noticable boost for the theurge. If you really optimize Charisma to 20 at level 1, it boosts the theurge even more from levels 1 to 3 and from levels 8 to 11.
It's not even that bad to get Charisma up to 20. With the Musetouched, you could go with:
Str 7
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 7
Cha 20
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Excellent chart, I like it! My theurge has slightly higher Charisma than your chart indicates (point buy 17 for a starting 19, becomes 22 at level 4 due to stat raise and +2 item, then 24 at level 7 with a +4 stat item and 28 at level 12 with a +6 stat item and two more stat raises). Of course, the extra stat boost should apply to all three casters, but since the theurge double-dips on bonus spells, this will provide a noticable boost for the theurge. If you really optimize Charisma to 20 at level 1, it boosts the theurge even more from levels 1 to 3 and from levels 8 to 11.It's not even that bad to get Charisma up to 20. With the Musetouched, you could go with:
Str 7
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 7
Cha 20
And with spellcaster multiclassing, you'll barely even feel that 7 WIS.
|
|
And with spellcaster multiclassing, you'll barely even feel that 7 WIS.Excellent chart, I like it! My theurge has slightly higher Charisma than your chart indicates (point buy 17 for a starting 19, becomes 22 at level 4 due to stat raise and +2 item, then 24 at level 7 with a +4 stat item and 28 at level 12 with a +6 stat item and two more stat raises). Of course, the extra stat boost should apply to all three casters, but since the theurge double-dips on bonus spells, this will provide a noticable boost for the theurge. If you really optimize Charisma to 20 at level 1, it boosts the theurge even more from levels 1 to 3 and from levels 8 to 11.It's not even that bad to get Charisma up to 20. With the Musetouched, you could go with:
Str 7
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 7
Cha 20
Exactly. :-)
|
By the way, you guys rock! I love how we can really dig in to this and try to make an analysis together, regardless of our opinion, rather than getting caught up on rhetoric like in some of the other threads on this topic. In my opinion, this is definitely the most productive of these threads.+1 to that.
I'm looking at three different MT possibilities right now.
Int-based Emberkin Wizard 2 / Cleric 1 / MT
Wis-based Plumekith Cleric 2 / Empyreal Sorcerer 1 / MT
Cha-based Musetouched Sorcerer 2 / Wood Oracle 1 / MT
What SLAs allow the bolded two?
|
|
What SLAs allow the bolded two?By the way, you guys rock! I love how we can really dig in to this and try to make an analysis together, regardless of our opinion, rather than getting caught up on rhetoric like in some of the other threads on this topic. In my opinion, this is definitely the most productive of these threads.+1 to that.
I'm looking at three different MT possibilities right now.
Int-based Emberkin Wizard 2 / Cleric 1 / MT
Wis-based Plumekith Cleric 2 / Empyreal Sorcerer 1 / MT
Cha-based Musetouched Sorcerer 2 / Wood Oracle 1 / MT
Sorry, I should have specified. Those two get their arcane from the Aasimar and their divine from the Fate Inquisition, as mentioned upthread:
Or, as CRobledo points out, you can use the Fate Inquisition to get your 2nd-level divine SLA (augury, only on the Cleric spell list).
Since you can pick up an inquisition in place of a domain, you could go [arcane] 2 / Cleric 1 / MT.
The Charisma-based build gets its arcane from the Aasimar and its divine from the Wood Oracle's Bend the Grain revelation.
Bend the Grain (Sp): Once per day as a standard action, you can shape or warp wooden objects. This functions as either wood shape or warp wood. At 11th level, you can use this ability to push wood away from you, as repel wood. At 7th level, and again at 14th level, you can use this ability an additional time per day.
|
|
Ah right. So give up a domain for early entry into MT. That is certainly an option, but I'd be loath to give up a domain slot.
Yeah, but it's probably worth the trade if you want to go primary-arcane MT. You still get 1 domain of your choosing and 11 levels of Cleric casting.
Speaking of, how do domains work with MT? I know you don't get the domain powers. But you still get your domain spells, correct?
Similar question for a Wizard's specialty school: you don't get the powers but still get the extra spell per level of the chosen school, correct?
You don't give up a domain slot. Clerics get 2 domains, so choosing 1 Inquistion without Domain Spells still leaves you a normal Domain. You just lose the BREADTH OF CHOICE of selecting between 2 domains to fill the 1 domain slot for each spell level, and MUST solely utilize that one Domain for your Domain Slots (which doesn't have to be each spell, you can memorize multiple lower level Domain Spells that you like better, possibly with Metamagic).
/nitpick
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
You don't give up a domain slot. Clerics get 2 domains, so choosing 1 Inquistion without Domain Spells still leaves you a normal Domain. You just lose the BREADTH OF CHOICE of selecting between 2 domains to fill the 1 domain slot for each spell level, and MUST solely utilize that one Domain for your Domain Slots (which doesn't have to be each spell, you can memorize multiple lower level Domain Spells that you like better, possibly with Metamagic).
/nitpick
I could be wrong, but I don't think he meant domain *spell* slots, I think he meant the two slots in which you put the domains themselves.
You gain the spells as though you'd gained a level in a previous spellcasting class, so you get them.
Yes, that covers 'bonus' spontaneous spells known ala sorceror/oracle, and clerics (domains) and spec wizards (schools) actually have 'independent' wording saying they get a bonus spell slot (with restricted usage) for each spell level they can cast (which works even when their spell level is increased by a PrC), although that is really superfluous since the PrCs are granting spell slots (i.e. spells per day) "as if you gained a level in a previous spellcasting class".
|
|
So, theorycrafters, what do you think of using Summoner/Oracle for a support class? You don't get as many spells, of course, but the Summoner spell list is pretty disgusting--Haste is SL2, for instance, which can then be cast using SL3 Divine slots after CL6, basically making you a buffing machine. Or are you trading way too much?
I could be wrong, but I don't think he meant domain *spell* slots, I think he meant the two slots in which you put the domains themselves.
Oh, TERMINOLOGYFAIL. I always just said "Domain Caramel Machiatto" to refer to that. ;-)