RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There's some big discussions happening in regard to some recent FAQs, and since I know not everyone here in the PFS forums frequents the Rules or Advice boards, I feel like I should point it out so that as few people as possible get blindsided by this at the table.
First, the relevant FAQ entries:
This FAQ establishes that having a spell-like ability counts as being able to cast the spell for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.
This FAQ establishes that SLAs are considered arcane unless either the spell exists on the cleric or druid list but not on the sorc/wiz list, or the creature itself is inherently divine.
Furthermore, we have commentary from designer Sean K Reynolds that, as an example, a rogue with Minor Magic (grants an SLA) does qualify for the Arcane Strike feat, which has a prerequisite of "Ability to cast arcane spells". He even says they almost used that as their example in the FAQ.
So, what does all this add up to?
Well, the Eldritch Knight prestige class has as a prerequisite the ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. The default aasimar has daylight as an SLA (though there are examples in other races as well). Per the first FAQ, it counts as being able to cast the spell for purposes of prereqs. Per the second FAQ, it counts as arcane. And per existing rules for SLAs, it counts as being 3rd-level because the spell is 3rd-level.
Thus, any default aasimar meets that part of the prereqs for Eldritch Knight. As soon as he has proficiency in all martial weapons and has at least one level in an arcane casting class to be advanced by his EK levels, he qualifies for EK. That means an aasimar Fighter1/Wizard1 can then begin EK at 3rd level.
Similarly, the Mystic Theurge requires the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells and 2nd-level divine spells. There are plenty of races capable of using 2nd-level SLAs. Such a PC could take 3 levels in one class, one level in the other, and then start MT at 5th instead of 7th.
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Now, if you're anything like me, your first reaction was probably "That can't possibly be the intent, right?"
Actually, there's some speculation that it might actually be intentional.
But in this thread, that's not the point: the current state of the rules and FAQ is that this works. So unless there's either (1) a new FAQ, (2) a change to one of these FAQs, or (3) a ban issued by Mike Brock, this appears to be totally legit for PFS.
If you would be interested in official confirmation/denial of this consequence of the new FAQs, then go HERE and click the FAQ button.
If you would like to discuss the merits or flaws of this working this way, go HERE and read/discuss.
I originally thought this would be terrible, but upon further research/reflection/thought, I think it's actually pretty harmless. Had my first exposure to it been at a table I was GMing, then things could have gotten complicated, so I thought it would be helpful if GMs could be pre-informed and finish digesting this *before* encountering a 3rd-level Eldritch Knight PC at the table. :)
Thanks for reading, and remember: there's no need to impugn the moral fiber of those who might play the game differently than you're used to, so let's keep this thread positive and civil.
Thanks!
See, I was just going to PM Mike about this as a heads up about potential forum debates, but this works too :)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hopefully the debates can mainly stick to the Rules forum thread I linked, and this thread can be about awareness.
For myself, my main PFS concern is that someone will make a PC with this topic in mind, and then we'll get a reversal or something. So my main motivation for clicking the FAQ button in the above-linked thread is not so much to get one answer or the other, or even to get the intent verified at all; rather, it's just to guarantee a lack of surprises for anyone later.
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Any time you push the boundaries of what seems reasonable to make your precious little snowflake, expect table variation.
I understand there is a whole segment of players who like to squeeze every last drop out of the rules, but there's (imo) a larger contingent of players and GM's who hate seeing this done and usually resent the players who bring it to their table.
Most players (again, in my ever so limited experience) want to spend their 5 hours having fun at the table, NOT watching someone waste precious time arguing with the GM or other players about whether or not their super-special-awesome-build-combo is legal or not via FAQ posts, Paizo posts or emails. It's almost like players want to come up with some combination that "surpises" the table. It's more likely they just want the attention gained from finding some rules combination out on the fringes of the game.
Even if you go to the length of printing out the FAQ or messageboard posts, I could completely see a GM not allowing a lot of these things. To which you might respond, "but it's all written right here, why can't you come to the same conclusions?" Not everyone is going to agree that this is legal, even after being presented with the information here. Again, expect table variation.
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further, if we wanted to get deep into semantics, the prerequisite is the ability to cast 3rd level spells, not the ability to cast a 3rd level spell. thus, sorcerer and wizards would qualify upon reaching a sufficient level to cast those spells as they will get multiple spells known or in their spellbook.
i don't necessarily agree with that detailed of a semantic argument, but just adding it into the mix.
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also, in that particular case, an aasimar could easily be argued to be inherently divine, and thus not eligible to meet the 3rd level requirement for EK.
Exactly. Expect table variation. Expect to waste time at the table discussing your build instead of playing the game. Expect others to roll their eyes as you waste their time. Expect the GM to label you as a munchkin whether or not you actually are.
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further, if we wanted to get deep into semantics, the prerequisite is the ability to cast 3rd level spells, not the ability to cast a 3rd level spell. thus, sorcerer and wizards would qualify upon reaching a sufficient level to cast those spells as they will get multiple spells known or in their spellbook.
i don't necessarily agree with that detailed of a semantic argument, but just adding it into the mix.
Except the example above that Jiggy pointed out from SKR, was that the Rogue's talent that gives an SLA would qualify for something like this.
Additionally, a 5th level Wizard can only cast 1 3rd level spell per day. Does that mean they have to be 6th level?
Lets not get pedantic with the plurality of the word. The precedent is that plurality of something like this doesn't mean anything when prerequisites are considered.
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I'd just like an official ruling; it's a good arguement. The Aasimir Mystic Surge with Cleric 3 / Wiz 1 / MT X would be a pretty frikkin powerful build...
As it stands, I believe you'd often show up at tables and be denied play. If they don't make an official ruling one way or the other, we could theory-argue all day and many GMs will still say no.
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It's pretty evident that the source of an Aasimar's powers is Divine, not Arcane. Just look at these quotes from the ARG:
"Aasimars are humans with a significant amount of celestial or other good outsider blood in their ancestry."
"While corrupt aasimars may be loners or may establish secret societies to conceal their involvement in crime, righteous aasimars are often found congregating in numbers as part of good-aligned organizations, especially (though not always) churches and religious orders."
"This is especially true of those whose lineage is more distant and who bear only faint marks of their heavenly ancestry."
"Whatever dalliances other races may have had with the denizens of the upper planes,..."
Emphasis mine.
The racial powers of an Aasimar is straight out Divine. It's nice that the developers put out a FAQ that some people think they can apply here, but anyone doing so is being wilfully ignorant on pages and pages of text where it states straight out Aasimars gain their powers from divine good outsiders.
Finally, it's not like divine casters can't cast Daylight. They have two subdomains that include the spell on their listing.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I started a thread HERE for the issue of whether an aasimar is sufficiently divine-natured to make their SLAs automatically be divine. Hopefully we can get that answered; thanks to those who brought it up.
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Well, the Eldritch Knight prestige class has as a prerequisite the ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. The default aasimar has daylight as an SLA (though there are examples in other races as well). Per the first FAQ, it counts as being able to cast the spell for purposes of prereqs. Per the second FAQ, it counts as arcane. And per existing rules for SLAs, it counts as being 3rd-level because the spell is 3rd-level.
The prestige classes are not necessarily better than the core classes anymore. Having Eldritch Knight, even at level 1, isn’t exactly over-the-top, or a problem imo. I’d still rather play a Magus.
I’ve been play testing this since I allow prestige classes at level 1 (with some rules) in my home Adventure Path campaign. It’s not unbalancing at all. (10th level NPC assassins are fun, bwahahahahaahaha!).
Thanks for the heads up though.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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This thread should be locked then. Essentially what I'm getting is:
"Here's my opinion on how all these FAQ's work together for XYZ rules/classes/etc."
"If you want to discuss whether or not this is actually they way they work, then please go to a different thread."
I was just trying to point out that the topic exists, as I thought that GMs might prefer to be aware of what they might encounter BEFORE they encounter it, so they can be fully informed ahead of time and therefore not waste other people's time wading through all this with a player at the table.
It's also helpful for bringing up other things that might need resolving, such as the topic of aasimar divinity. Lock the thread and we reduce the possibility of finding and resolving legitimate issues/questions.
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Jiggy Based on this FAQ answer:
Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?
Most spell-like abilities should be considered arcane, unless the spell in question only appears on the standard cleric or druid spell list (such as holy smite) or something about the creature strongly indicates its spell-like abilities should be considered divine (such as a solar's spell-like abilities, as a solar usually directly serves a deity).
("Standard spell list" meaning "not altered in some way by an archetype, prestige class, racial ability, and so on.")
—Pathfinder Design Team, Tuesday Back to Top
If asked for a table ruling I would rule that an Aasimar's Daylight Spell Like Ability would be Divine not Arcane.
The whole reason there is anything special about an Assimar is their divine heritage.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Well, the Eldritch Knight prestige class has as a prerequisite the ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. The default aasimar has daylight as an SLA (though there are examples in other races as well). Per the first FAQ, it counts as being able to cast the spell for purposes of prereqs. Per the second FAQ, it counts as arcane. And per existing rules for SLAs, it counts as being 3rd-level because the spell is 3rd-level.
Except the prerequisite is "Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells."
One spell is not "spells." Plural = more than one.So that example doesn't work.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Well, the Eldritch Knight prestige class has as a prerequisite the ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. The default aasimar has daylight as an SLA (though there are examples in other races as well). Per the first FAQ, it counts as being able to cast the spell for purposes of prereqs. Per the second FAQ, it counts as arcane. And per existing rules for SLAs, it counts as being 3rd-level because the spell is 3rd-level.
Except the prerequisite is "Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells."
One spell is not "spells." Plural = more than one.So that example doesn't work.
Note the designer commentary referenced in the OP.
The Arcane Strike feat requires the ability to cast arcane "spells" (plural and everything).Someone asked if the Minor Magic rogue talent (which grants one, singular, SLA) would qualify.
The answer from designer Sean K Reynolds was not only that it works, but that they considered using that as the example in the FAQ.
Link to this commentary is provided in the OP.
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Well, the Eldritch Knight prestige class has as a prerequisite the ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. The default aasimar has daylight as an SLA (though there are examples in other races as well). Per the first FAQ, it counts as being able to cast the spell for purposes of prereqs. Per the second FAQ, it counts as arcane. And per existing rules for SLAs, it counts as being 3rd-level because the spell is 3rd-level.
Except the prerequisite is "Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells."
One spell is not "spells." Plural = more than one.So that example doesn't work.
See my response to this logic above.
Nowhere is there a precedent that the plurality of the word "spells" is indicative of part of the prerequisite.
It has been accepted that a 5th level Wizard can qualify, even though if they have less than a 16 Int, they only have one (1) 3rd level spell they can cast.
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See my response to this logic above.
Nowhere is there a precedent that the plurality of the word "spells" is indicative of part of the prerequisite.
It has been accepted that a 5th level Wizard can qualify, even though if they have less than a 16 Int, they only have one (1) 3rd level spell they can cast.
But they know more than one spell. Also your argument about precedent goes both ways. Because "RAW" doesn't state X doesn't mean you can do Y.
Expect table variation.
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See my response to this logic above.
Nowhere is there a precedent that the plurality of the word "spells" is indicative of part of the prerequisite.
It has been accepted that a 5th level Wizard can qualify, even though if they have less than a 16 Int, they only have one (1) 3rd level spell they can cast.
But they know more than one spell. Also your argument about precedent goes both ways. Because "RAW" doesn't state X doesn't mean you can do Y.
Expect table variation.
Can you honestly say that an Aasimar level 2 Magus/10 Eldritch Knight would be overpowered?
I'd imagine that it would actually be slightly underpowered compared to a straight Magus, or a Magus 6/Eldritch Knight 6.
I'm not seeing the problem or why there would need to be table variation.
And Kyle, if you want to use hard RAW logic, you can't say that knowing more than one spell equals being able to cast more than one spell.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Thanks Jiggy, didn't delve into those (obviously) :P
Well, I don't look forward to my next few game days when this forum post gets around.
For what it's worth, there's a multi-page thread discussing the "possibilities" that this opens up, and the general consensus seems to be that the effect on relevant PrC's power level is negligible at best.
That is, if internet theorists are anything to go by. ;)
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Expect table variation. Expect to waste time at the table discussing your build instead of playing the game. Expect others to roll their eyes as you waste their time. Expect the GM to label you as a munchkin whether or not you actually are.
This is an excellent point. I hope that players who read these threads recognize that this is something they should talk through with the GM before the game starts. (Of course, that applies to pretty much anything from an errata or FAQ that is a central part of your build.)
In any of the "PFS survival guides", do we have a list of "problematic configurations" or "current controversies" to alert players to potential issues with their characters and flag things that should probably be resolved with the GM in advance?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Expect table variation. Expect to waste time at the table discussing your build instead of playing the game. Expect others to roll their eyes as you waste their time. Expect the GM to label you as a munchkin whether or not you actually are.This is an excellent point. I hope that players who read these threads recognize that this is something they should talk through with the GM before the game starts. (Of course, that applies to pretty much anything from an errata or FAQ that is a central part of your build.)
For this reason, I want to re-emphasize the importance of heading to the rules thread linked in the OP and contribute to FAQ requests so we can get this settled for sure one way or the other.
In any of the "PFS survival guides", do we have a list of "problematic configurations" or "current controversies" to alert players to potential issues with their characters and flag things that should probably be resolved with the GM in advance?
That sounds like a fantastic thread to make, though it would require a thorough scouring of the various FAQs (seeing as those are binding for PFS) to make sure nothing got accidentally listed as ambiguous that's actually in a FAQ (especially since we've gotten dozens upon dozens of new ones in the last few months).
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Does this mean that a seventh level carnavalist rogue with the Minor Magic talent could take Improved Familiar so he could take
** spoiler omitted **
I mean, if suddenly spell-like abilities count as arcane or divine, that rogue WOULD have an arcane caster level...
Improved Familiar also requires that you already be capable of taking a familiar, so I'm not seeing how these FAQs would change anything. Did you have a path/method in mind?
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I was worried about this for a while, ever since those FAQs appeared. Jiggy, I would have made a thread like this, but I was hoping the FAQ would be errataed quickly and that thus there would be less of a need for PFSers to have to dive into this at all (by not talking about it, it wouldn't get noticed until it was fixed).
Honestly, the super-fast Eldritch Knight isn't nearly as much of an issue as the "I only lost one caster level in my main spellcasting for a dip with a favorable casting boon" Mystic Theurge. There's an aasimar feat to get a divine 2nd level spell as an extra SLA. Here's one configuration--Musetouched aasimar have glitterdust, which is only on arcane lists, as well as getting Charisma and Dexterity as bonus stats with no penalty. So you can go Sorcerer1/Oracle1 and then theurge, taking something that benefits all your spells from both classes as a bloodline arcana and revelation. Let's take a look at your casting ability, overall at level 11, assuming you have ~28 Charisma at this point, but so do the straight Sorcerer and Oracle 11--
Sorcerer11 has 9,6,6,5,4,3 arcane spells known at levels 0 through 5, including bloodline spells, and 9,8,8,8,6 arcane spells per day of levels 1 through 5.
Oracle11 has 9,7,7,6,5,4 divine spells known at levels 0 through 5, including mystery spells and the free cure or inflict spells, and 9,8,8,8,6 divine spells per day of levels 1 through 5.
You have 9,5,4,3,2,1 arcane spells known at levels 0 through 5 (since you don't get bloodline spells) and 9,6,5,4,3,2 divine spells known at levels 0 through 5. You have 9,8,8,7,5 arcane spells per day of levels 1 through 5 and 9,8,8,7,5 divine spells per day of levels 1 through 5.
So let's compare.
Your biggest advantage is in spells per day. You have a grand total of one 4th-level and one 5th-level arcane spell less than the straight sorcerer (and the same in divine compared to the straight oracle). What does that mean? It means that in total spells per day, you have 18 1st-level to their 9, 16 2nd-level to their 8, 16 3rd-level to their 8, 14 4th-level to their 8, and 10 5th-level to their 6. The two of them put together can barely cast more than you can by yourself.
Spells Known--OK, we have less of an advantage here, since we have more of some levels, less of others, and the versatility of taking spells at the earliest level they arrive on either the sorcerer or the oracle list. The sorcerer knows 1 more 1st level arcane spell than you, and two more of each other level, but one of each of those is a bloodline spell that you wouldn't have been able to select. The oracle's advantage is identical in divine spells known.
In total spells known, you destroy either of them at low level spells known and come out closer to even at high level. You know 18 0-level to their 9, 11 1st-level to their 6/7, 9 2nd-level to their 6/7, 7 3rd-level to their 5/6, 5 4th-level to their 4/5, and finally 3 5th-level to their 3/4. However, only one of your spells known is preselected for you (the cure or inflict), and the straight oracle has the mystery spells preselected as well. Plus you get to mix and match arcane and divine.
Bottom line--this level 3 theurge is an incredibly powerful caster, not only due to have a mix of arcane and divine spells, but also due to having extremely deep pockets for spells per day. Your theurge isn't going to ever run out until everyone else is long out of spells. This is even ignoring the ability to do things like pick up Revelations or Arcana that boost both sides of the magic. I hope that people who are saying (here and in other threads) that this isn't a major power boost will look at the math and see that it's a pretty big boost, particularly to the right builds. I haven't even gotten into the doublecast capstone that the theurge gets the next level after my sample build.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Improved Familiar also requires that you already be capable of taking a familiar, so I'm not seeing how these FAQs would change anything. Did you have a path/method in mind?The carnilvalist archetype grants rogues a familiar.
...Then why doesn't he already qualify for Improved Familiar, seeing as his familiar class feature says it functions as a wizard of equal level?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@Rogue Eidolon:
Isn't that kind of the point of the Mystic Theurge, though? To be able to be a superior spellcaster at the expense of all else (such as class features)? I honestly don't know how the benefits and drawbacks would shake out in actual play, but here's what I'm seeing across the fence from the spells advantage:
• No more class features. No bloodline bonus feats, bloodline powers (past the 1st level ones), no more revelations without spending feats, anything you got at 1st level that scales with level quickly becomes obsolete, etc.
• You're still not casting 2nd-level spells until 6th level. Blech.
• At 11th level, you top out at 5th-level spells, compared to a full-caster's 6th-level spells. Funnily enough, this is the same drawback assigned to the Eldritch Knight.
• Are all of those extra spell slots actually useful? I mean, I've never seen a PC run out of spells by the end of a scenario. Having more unused slots than your neighbor isn't an advantage.
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Again, I don't know how all that stacks up against the extra spells in actual gameplay, but I'm inclined to think it's not as crazy as it first seems.
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Stuff for mystic theurgeRE, Mystic Theurge still has 3-rank skills requirements, so you would never be able to take it at 3. 4 minimum.
Also, if you go Musetouched Aasimar, you no longer qualify for the Heavenly Radiance feat, as it requires Daylight as an SLA.
Well that's a relief! In that case, you're going to lose a lot more from one of the two casting classes, so it will weaken the build at lower levels. If that's the case, and assuming that a 3rd-level spell does not count as a 2nd-level spell (in other words, that you need exactly a 2nd level spell, and not 2nd or higher), you couldn't do the double-spont build for another 3 more levels, unless I'm missing some other SLA-granting feat. In that case, we don't have to worry about spells known--we can look moreso at spells per day, by choosing at least one class that doesn't have spells known. Let's meet another build that relies purely on the aasimar's innate SLA.
First Plumekith Cleric3/EmpyrealSorc1/MT8 (28 Wis)--see invisibility is pretty arcane. I'll do level 12 this time because it doesn't run into the issue of gaining the capstone.
We've got 8/8/8/6 Sorcerer spells per day and 7/7/7/6/5/3 Cleric spells per day. The 12th Cleric has one extra 5th and 6th compared to us, but she is down 6 4th, 8 3rd, 8 2nd, and 8 1st per day, plus we have the versatility of both arcane and divine spells. So we more than double her except our top two levels of spells, where we have a small loss. Even if we ignore the value of adding in arcane spells, the slots we lost would cost 61k to replicate with pearls of power, whereas the slots we gained would cost 208k to replicate with pearls of power (except they are spontaneous, so they would really cost double with runestones of power).
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@Rogue Eidolon:
Isn't that kind of the point of the Mystic Theurge, though? To be able to be a superior spellcaster at the expense of all else (such as class features)? I honestly don't know how the benefits and drawbacks would shake out in actual play, but here's what I'm seeing across the fence from the spells advantage:• No more class features. No bloodline bonus feats, bloodline powers (past the 1st level ones), no more revelations without spending feats, anything you got at 1st level that scales with level quickly becomes obsolete, etc.
• You're still not casting 2nd-level spells until 6th level. Blech.
• At 11th level, you top out at 5th-level spells, compared to a full-caster's 6th-level spells. Funnily enough, this is the same drawback assigned to the Eldritch Knight.
• Are all of those extra spell slots actually useful? I mean, I've never seen a PC run out of spells by the end of a scenario. Having more unused slots than your neighbor isn't an advantage.-----------------------------
Again, I don't know how all that stacks up against the extra spells in actual gameplay, but I'm inclined to think it's not as crazy as it first seems.
Theurge gets it own class features, however, including a powerful capstone. As to scaling features, the idea is to not pick those. So if you have to choose between the Luck domain's touch and the Good domain's touch, choose Luck because you don't need to scale. If you have to pick the scaling evoker power or the non-scaling hanging dice of the foresight diviner, pick the diviner (sure the initiative scales, but you still get to act on surprise and get all the hanging dice rolls for just 1 level). Etc.
The extra slots allow for spammability, which is actually rather useful if used on long-term buffs. If 6 extra 4th-level spell slots suddenly appeared before you, one thing you could do is freedom of movement your entire party of 6. That's not even an optimized thing that I thought out for a while, just the first thing off the top of my head. 6 extra 3rd level slots? One quick example is to magic vestment or greater magic weapon everybody, or maybe both if few enough people have weapons and armor. I know a bunch of us in Bonekeep would have been in a lot more trouble without John Compton's awesome magic vestments. I'm sure there's better ways to do it.
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The cap stone is to cast two spells once per day. *Spend 40k on a staff of the master and quicken spell and you've gained the exact same ability, with a higher spell slot (twice a season rather than once a day), and you need vampiric touch to recharge it, but I was comparing arcane and not thinking of the cleric itself.
Really the question here is, how do you compare the power level of the cleric who casts planar ally and heal once per day, to all of those sorcerer spell slots?
Or spend 40k on a staff of the master with a theurge and cast three spells. It doesn't use your swift, so the capstone is pretty irreplacable, since it stacks with everything else.
As I said above, you can grab the extra cleric slots necessary for one 5th and one 6th with 61k worth of pearls of power. Even if you could use pearls instead of runestones to grab all the sorcerer slots, you still would need 208k to replicate the sorcerer slots with pearls.
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Rogue Eidolon, I can't help but notice that you chose odd levels when even levels would be worse for the mystic theurge and even levels when odd would be worse for the mystic theurge.
In addition, your straight cleric build has superior hit points, can cast while wearing armor without penalty, superior base attack bonus, better fortitude save, better channels, and a pair of 8th level domain powers.
I didn't choose 12th in the initial build because it granted the capstone, which is hard to weigh, since it can be strong or weak depending on how tactical one is. I mentioned this in that post--that I intended to compare at 12 (the level of becoming a Seeker) but pulled it down to 11 so I wouldn't have to compare the capstone.
EDIT: I see I didn't word the fact that I pulled it from 12 to 11 very well.