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This is for Pfs since difference of opinion with V-L:
please tell me if the following sequence are legal (and please give the rule to support it as i need to convince V-L if i am correct)
Situation 1
Round 1
Magus Spell Combat :
-Cast Shocking grasp, then use Spellstrike to deliver it. => Misses
then normal attack, with the Shocking grasp still active since it missed. Use Spellstrike => hit
Question is that sequence legal?
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Situation 2
Round 1
Magus Spell Combat :
-Cast Shocking grasp, then use Spellstrike to deliver it. => Misses
Round 2
Magus Spell Combat :
-normal attack, with the Shocking grasp still active since it missed. Use Spellstrike => hit
-Cast an other Shocking grasp then use Spellstrike to deliver it.
Question is that sequence legal?
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Situation 3
Round 1 (Caster Level 5)
Magus Spell Combat :
-Cast Frostbite, then use Spellstrike to deliver it. => Hit
-Use normal attack , use Spellstrike to deliver an other frostbite => hit
Round 2
-Use normal attack , use Spellstrike to deliver an other frostbite => hit
Question is that sequence legal?
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tks you all for your help in advance.
Your situations are very good worded but if i understood them correctly.
Situation 1 and 2 are legal, situation 3 is illegal because you aren't casting frostbite in round 2 (but you can cast another and use frostbite) and because in round 1 you didn't (and can't) cast another frostbite.
As far as I know all three scenarios are legal as, unless a spell specifically states otherwise, you can pretty much hold a touch spell charge indefinitely until you either touch something to discharge it or cast another spell.
So scenario one, assuming that he is using spell combat with the spell first, if he misses on the free attack granted by spellstrike he could discharge the spell on his normal attack.
Scenario two, presumably he's moving. Round 1 cast, move, then miss on the granted free attack. Round two spell combat, this time with the regular attack first, he can hit with his first attack then cast a new shocking grasp. It's worth noting that there is a slight risk in this scenario in the second round, you need to choose whether or not you are doing spell combat (and whether or not you are taking additional penalties to boost concentration) before beginning your attack routine. That means that if you would like to make the second attack from spell combat you need to take the -2 hit penalty on the first attack, and if you miss you have a choice between casting again to get the second attack, discharging and wasting the first spell, or passing on the second casting to save the charge from the first casting.
Scenario three the only real catch is that casting any other spell will discharge the remaining charges of frostbite, so you generally have a choice between wasting charges or passing on extra attacks. For that reason frostbite tends to be most popular on builds that use natural attacks and other means to maximize the number of attacks per round.
If you have any other questions about the mechanics of touch attacks Grick has posted a really good guide on touch attacks in general, as well as how they interact with magus abilities: Here
Your situations are very good worded but if i understood them correctly.
Situation 1 and 2 are legal, situation 3 is illegal because you aren't casting frostbite in round 2 (but you can cast another and use frostbite) and because in round 1 you didn't (and can't) cast another frostbite.
Unless I am missing something, Scenario three is legal as well. As a 5th level caster Frostbite grants 5 charges, so presuming it looks like this:
Rd 1:
Spell combat
cast Frostbite, make granted attack from touch spell as spellstrike
make normal attack as spellstrike
Rd 2:
Make normal attack as spellstrike
Then he has only expended 3/5 charges and can spellstrike on two more attacks, provided he doesn't cast anything else first. He could even theoretically save the two remaining charges for the next encounter, though as a GM in most cases I'd call shennanigans on that since he'd discharge a charge if he touched anything.
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Spellstrike only occurs when you cast a spell. Frostbite is casted once, and then you can hold the charge for X attacks. So if you spell strike again, you lose the previous charges remaining, gain new ones, and you've used another spell.
"Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list..."
Sequence one, two and three may be wrong if this reflects your intention better:
1.
Spell strike, miss.
Normal attack miss? shocking grasp stays in hand
Normal attack hits? shocking grasp is used
Another spellstrike?
Illegal, spellstrike is only once per casting of a spell
2.
spell strike, miss
Normal attack, miss
Round two
spell strike (invalid, only when you cast a spell do you get to use spell strike)
normal attack miss
cast another shocking grasp to use spell strike (legal, but you'd lose the previous shocking grasp charge without using it)
3... Illegal.
Once again, spellstrike is once per cast, not once per round while you are holding a charge. Technically, you could use spellstrike three times in a round, using your standard action to cast a spell, and your move action and your swift action to each cast a quickened spell. No other ways.
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If your meaning to channel a charge through your weapon and your calling that spellstrike, it's implied by a couple sources that you can still channel the spell through your weapon. If THATS what your meaning...
But you wouldn't get the extra attack per round. Once again, notation might have gotten me...
But at CL 5, you can cast the spell (frostbite), get a normal attack, and get a free melee attack with spell strike. The next 4 successful attacks will discharge an additional charge of frostbite, but you don't benefit from an extra attack granted by spell strike (when casting a spell).
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But you wouldn't get the free extra attack. Some confusion comes from the FAQ...
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
But note that you follow the normal rules of touch spells, except that you get a free weapon attack instead of the free touch attack. Now see below.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Emphasis mine.
You can 'use' spell strike to 'deliver' a touch spell whenever, but to get the free extra attack you 'have' to cast said spell 'that' round.
Situation 1 is legal, assuming that you are using Spell Combat (which you are not calling out, but again, I assume you are, since it's the primary way to cast and attack in the same round). Your first (missing) attack is the melee attack substituted for the free touch attack; the second (successful) attack is your standard attack for the round, and due to Spellstrike, you can deliver the Shocking Grasp via that attack.
Situation 2 is also legal, as Spell Combat allows you to take the various component actions in any order (although you appear to be missing an attack in the first round of your description). If we assume you fail to deliver Shocking Grasp in the first round, then it would look like: Round 1 - First (missing) attack substituted for free touch attack; second (missing attack) attack from your normal standard attack, and round 1 over. Round 2 - Spell Combat declared, first (successful) attack is your standard attack for the round, delivers the held Shocking Grasp charge; cast Shocking Grasp (defensively, make your concentration check), then second (successful) attack substituted for free touch attack.
Finally, situation 3 is also legal (assuming that your use of the word Spellstrike is indicating that you're just using the melee attack you already called out to deliver the spell, and not to indicate a melee attack substituted for a free touch attack from casting Frostbite). You have 5 charges of Frostbite; your first round has one standard attack and one melee attack substituted for the free touch attack, while the second round you are taking just your one standard attack.
Now, rules to back it up?
First, the description of Spellstrike (emphasis mine):
Then Spell Combat:
Combine the two: Spell Combat allows you to cast a spell and take all of your iterative attacks; Spellstrike allows you a free (i.e., additional) melee attack in place of the free touch attack from a touch spell you cast.
Finally, the part that might be a bit confusing: A magus can make his attacks and cast a spell from Spell Combat in any order he chooses. The restriction here is that if he has multiple iterative attacks from his BAB, he cannot take one BAB attack, cast, and then take the remaining BAB attacks. However, the act of casting the touch spell itself is what grants the free melee attack substituted for the granted touch attack.
Let's take Spellstrike out of it:
Could a Magus with 3 iterative attacks from BAB do the following:
1. Take iterative attack 1.
2. Take iterative attack 2.
3. Take iterative attack 3.
4. Cast spell.
5. Use free touch attack granted by the spell to touch the target.
Now, put Spellstrike back into it. If your emphasis (interpretation of your emphasis - or what I'm assuming your interpretation is) is true, how exactly does the Magus take a melee attack that's 'granted' by the casting of the spell when he hasn't cast the spell yet?
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The way I read it, it's barring this situation:
1. Take iterative attack 1.
2. Cast spell.
3. Use free touch attack granted by the spell to touch the target.
4. Take iterative attack 2.
5. Take iterative attack 3.
[edit2]
I could be wrong on this. But it's the only way that makes sense to me; otherwise, there's not really much purpose of ever casting a touch spell after taking your iteratives as a Magus, because you're essentially 'wasting' the extra attack it would normally grant.
I suppose they could mean it to be used for non-touch spells, but it doesn't seem as useful that way.
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Yes it was indeed my assumption that all 3 situation was legal
quick question regarding Situation 2:
Round 1
Magus Spell Combat :
-Cast Shocking grasp, then use Spellstrike to deliver it. => Misses
Round 2
Magus Spell Combat :
-normal attack, with the Shocking grasp still active since it missed. Use Spellstrike => Miss
The magus if he is going to continue forward with the spellcasting allowed by spell combat will loose the Held touch spell (as per rules)
could he no go trough and not cast the spell granted by the spell combat action ? Thus not loosing the held charge, not getting of course the free 2nd attack but still incurring the -2 attack penalty to his first attack
All of those sequenses are Legal
you are actualy forgetting some actions there you can do MORE on siuation 2 and 3
in sutuation 2 you forget about your normal attack in round 1
(you could however not use spell combat and just cast a spell move and deliver it with spellstrike)
in situation 3
in round 2 you could declare spell combat and after you hit your 3rd frostbite cast another spell and get another free touch attack to do damage with!
So you can do all that and MORE!
ofcourse the held charge carge can be deliverd but spellstrike in anny attack so no need for spell combat!
BUT if you are not low on spell's and need to burst more, you could!
Your situations are very good worded but if i understood them correctly.
Situation 1 and 2 are legal, situation 3 is illegal because you aren't casting frostbite in round 2 (but you can cast another and use frostbite) and because in round 1 you didn't (and can't) cast another frostbite.
Unless I am missing something, Scenario three is legal as well. As a 5th level caster Frostbite grants 5 charges, so presuming it looks like this:
Rd 1:
Spell combat
cast Frostbite, make granted attack from touch spell as spellstrike
make normal attack as spellstrikeRd 2:
Make normal attack as spellstrikeThen he has only expended 3/5 charges and can spellstrike on two more attacks, provided he doesn't cast anything else first. He could even theoretically save the two remaining charges for the next encounter, though as a GM in most cases I'd call shennanigans on that since he'd discharge a charge if he touched anything.
Ok it appears that i somehow didn't read the last sentence of frostbite (although i read twice).
So upon this new information i apologize for the incorrect answer on situation 3 and i change it to:Situation 3 is most likely legal but we don't have a 100% consesus (or FAQ) on what happens with spells that allow you multiple touches (like frostbite or chill touch), i think that it works but we have heard arguements that it isn't allowed.
your itterives have to be done all befor or after your spell not in between thats the only limitation.
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At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. [...]
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.[...]
If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. [...] Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. [...] If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
So If I understood correctly :
1/ You cast a spell with a ranged touch => you can use spellstrike and make a free attack with an holding weapon instead of the free melee touch attack.
2/ Spellstrike follow the rules for touch attack, giving just another way to deliver it. (FAQ).
If the magus miss his opponent, then he hold the charge.
If he want to use his spell, he must use a standard action to make a touch attack. He don't have any more "free action" to deliver the spell through his weapon because he don't cast the spell.
The other way to deliver an holding touch spell and still attacking is to use an unarmed or natural attack (by RAW)
But as I read it, you can't use spellstrike because you aren't "casting a spell", nor have a free attack to deliver the spell, nor your weapon is an unarmed or natural attack.
Please explain me where I'm wrong.
You are wrong. The emphasized statement only prevents you from:
1) Spell Combat
a) Iterative 1
b) Touch Spell
b1) free attack
c) Iterative 2
d) Iterative 3It does not, however, prevent:
1) Spell Combat
a) Iterative 1
b) Iterative 2
c) Iterative 3
d) Touch Spell
d1) free attackBecause the free attack isn't an iterative performed by Spell Combat, though, it's affected by the -2 to attack because the spell was cast as part of Spell Combat.
...that's what I said. :P
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The way I read it, it's barring this situation:1. Take iterative attack 1.
2. Cast spell.
3. Use free touch attack granted by the spell to touch the target.
4. Take iterative attack 2.
5. Take iterative attack 3.
We're in agreement. I think I misunderstood what you were saying, and then my response wasn't clear or was misunderstood; we're saying the same thing. Your iterative attacks must be taken as an interrupted group; your spell can be bast before that group or after, and the attack it grants is then taken immediately afterward.
@Ilmakis: Kazaan is correct. Spellstrike does not actually allow you to cast a spell and attack; that's Spell Combat. Spellstrike basically makes the sword a viable conduit for delivering spells that you otherwise would have to touch the target to deliver.
Think of it like delivering a static shock to someone: Normally to do so, you'd have to touch the person; if you touched a piece of metal first, it would discharge into the metal. The Magus has the ability to discharge that static shock through the metal - whether he just rubbed his socks on the carpet this round, or five rounds ago.
a magus can deliver anny held charge with spellstrike wether or not he cast thios spell this round or an hour ago!
what i do wonder is if you cast shocking grasp in the morning can you hold the charge as long as you would like?
a magus can deliver anny held charge with spellstrike wether or not he cast thios spell this round or an hour ago!
what i do wonder is if you cast shocking grasp in the morning can you hold the charge as long as you would like?
RAW? Yes, you can. You can't cast any other spells, and you can't touch anything that you weren't holding at the time that you cast the spell (presumably), but from what I can tell a held charge will hold until you force it to dissipate or discharge.
Xaratherus
when using spell combat do you know if the magus gets its iterative attack for High bab?
By common interpretation of the rules, yes. To quote the relevant rules section:
Emphasis on the parts that answer your question. There's a few folks who question what "all of his attacks", but the most common ruling is that it grants all of your iteratives from BAB.
Xaratherus
when using spell combat do you know if the magus gets its iterative attack for High bab?
there was a verry long discussion about it already look it up its to much debating to explain.
with the Haste rulling makeing it only more dificult to untherstand :-)
Xaratherus
when using spell combat do you know if the magus gets its iterative attack for High bab?
there was a verry long discussion about it already look it up its to much debating to explain.
with the Haste rulling makeing it only more dificult to untherstand :-)
That FAQ really messed the argument up.