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<<I am deleting the first part of this post where I talk about a cleric. It got a lot of attention and I felt it was distracting from the point of the post; a point that I expressed much better and with less general frustration on the second page of this thread. >>
I am pretty darn sick of being told I need to get a cure wand. As if my contributions to the party don’t count because I don’t come with wand included. I can’t count the number of times I was the only one at the table able to identify a monster. In Slave Pits of Absalom my familiar saved the party from a TPK. In Frozen Fingers of Midnight I disarmed the big bad in the first round of combat. In Rise of the Goblin Guild I caught the goblin after jumping out a window. In the Veteran’s Vault my wizard sprinted across the battle field and used one of his own potions to stabilize a party member while the heavy hitters ran away. I contribute.
Not having a cure wand does not make me a drain on party resources. I cast my spells to benefit other party members ALL THE TIME. I never once told someone they needed a wand of Resist Energy, Enlarge person, Bull Strength, Invisibility, or Fly.
And I would like to point out that when some crazy ninja/monk/assassin woman lays the smack down on my wizard he is taking damage that would have been directed at one of the other party members. Giving me a hard time for needing healing is really a jerk move. Particularly when my Magic Missiles were about the only things that could hit her.
Because I get told every time I game that I NEED a cure wand I am buying one. I have never been so bitter about such a small thing. I am just sick of hearing about it.
Infernal healing is cooler.(and more efficient)
Anyways, I'm sure you contribute. However people don't like spending their own resources on you when you could easily spend 2 pp(1 mission?) to buy some of your own. I'm sure they didn't mean you were worthless or anything.
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The only other class with two abilities that heals that I can think of is the paladin and they don’t get channel until a few levels in. And if I am wrong on that point it doesn’t invalidate anything else.
I didn’t say he had to heal; only that he didn’t. It seems logical that a renewable resource like channel would be a better use than a non renewable one like wands. And I was told to get a wand and he want told to channel. I never tell another player how to run their character.
I am not the only one who doesn’t have a cure wand. There have been a few times when only a few of us had them.
I get that people don’t like spending their resources, but I spend mine as well and do what I can to keep the party alive and get missions done without complaint.
I get that people don’t like spending their resources, but I spend mine as well and do what I can to keep the party alive and get missions done without complaint.
What's keeping you from spending some resources on a wand of infernal healing or cure light wound? There's a certain irony in coming here to complain, it looked like you were targeting a cleric. I know a few people who hate being asked to heal as a cleric, because they didn't pick the cleric to heal others and actually don't like the channel class feature(Which you can't really trade out well, which kinda' sucks.)
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My 2 cents.
You are complaining about someone refusing to waste spell slots on your healing. You have healing spells available to self heal.
School conjuration (healing) [evil]; Level cleric 1, magus 1,
sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (1 drop of devil blood or 1 dose of
unholy water)
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 minute
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes
(harmless)
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water,
giving it fast healing 1. This ability cannot repair damage caused
by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells or effects with
the good descriptor. The target detects as an evil creature for the
duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though
this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.
INFERNAL HEALING, GREATER
School conjuration (healing) [evil]; Level cleric 4, magus 4,
sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 4, witch 4
As infernal healing, except the target gains fast healing 4 and
the target detects as an evil cleric.
Lets compare the two:
1d8 average is 4.5.
Fast Healing 1 for 10 rounds (1 minute) is 10. Additionally, this will stop all bleed effects as you are healing every round.
CLW at Level 1 = 5.5hp healed average, Infernal Healing level 1 = 10 hp healed.
CLW at level 5 = 9.5 hp healed average, Infernal Healing level 1 = 10 hp healed.
At level 7, you get Infernal Healing Greater, which will heal you 40 points over 10 rounds. . .
So why should you have to memorize your own healing? Same reasons you are asking the cleric to I suppose. Should you have to? No.
Should you complain about it if you are not willing to do the same? No.
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You can play your character how you want.
If someone wants you to have a wand in an adventure I would tell them, "buy me one then.".
If you do not want to spend your resources there, that is fine. But you should not have to spend your resources on other players when they can buy a wand for you to use on them.
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And the cleric isn't contributing when s/he is NOT healing? Because you know, they can use that channel ability on a consecrated weapon to do more damage. Or save it for battles with selective channeling when you REALLY need it instead of down time healing that could have been easily taken care of with a couple of taps from a wand. Or you know, when the cleric does 2d6+28 damage...no that isn't contributing at all. The cleric contributes all on their own BEFORE the healing. Making them the sole provider of downtime healing on TOP of combat healing and everything else they do is unreasonable as you are basically telling them to make a heal bot. Sorry, that is being a jerk to me (unless this is your first mission...then yes I will gladly share my healing with you).
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What was he a cleric of? I'll repeat this possibility here.
"Fights over channel to heal me!
"I don't know if thats a good ide...
"DO IT!"
*channels negative energy, looks down at smouldering corpse* "I'm not that kinda cleric and if you'd put a rank into knowledge religion you would have known that..."
Neutral clerics of evil gods are a legal role playing choice in pathfinder
Even if you can't use a wand of CLW SOMEONE in your party can. I know its not the bright shiny new sword that you want to spend your money on, but the cleric/bard/druid/alchemist probably has something they want to spend their money on too.
I know on my cleric i like to save my channels for ranged healing or AOE's rather than just healing up one person. (or shield other and channel to get twice the mileage out of it)
You can play your character how you want.
If someone wants you to have a wand in an adventure I would tell them, "buy me one then.".
If you do not want to spend your resources there, that is fine. But you should not have to spend your resources on other players when they can buy a wand for you to use on them.
Are you suggesting I should never buy anything and just force my fellow pathfinders to do everything for me? Besides, you can't buy other people items, just lend. If I remember correctly.
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And yes I would expect the fighter to have ways to become invisible, fly, bulls strength and enlarge if that is what he wants to do, maybe you can cast them on him but maybe your actions that round are better spent on a control spell thus meaning he will have to have a backup plan.
Seriously, you should have your own fly option by level 5...no seriously.
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Bleed Condition:
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
Infernal Healing:
1) Is it a Spell? Yes.
2) Does it heal hit point damage? Yes.
Therefore it stops bleed effects.
If you have Fast Healing via nature, I agree, does not end bleed. As it, seems straight forward to me.
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Are you suggesting I should never buy anything and just force my fellow pathfinders to do everything for me? Besides, you can't buy other people items, just lend. If I remember correctly.You can play your character how you want.
If someone wants you to have a wand in an adventure I would tell them, "buy me one then.".
If you do not want to spend your resources there, that is fine. But you should not have to spend your resources on other players when they can buy a wand for you to use on them.
You misread what I put "in an adventure " means for that adventure.
I suggested to buy your character what you want them to have. You do not seem him complaining everyone did nto take fey foundling so the healing woul dbe easier for him.
You should look over things first before replying.
You should look over things first before replying.
Reread your own post? Your telling someone its okay not to bring healings supplies and force others to do that for them. 2 PP is nothing, and people shouldn't have to bring supplies for you. That's part of what bothers them. Telling them "You should buy me stuff!" doesn't tend to go over well, especially if its one of those things your expected to have.
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I cast my spells to benefit other party members ALL THE TIME.
So does a cleric. But I'm sure the cleric would be happy to cast the spells you want instead of the ones he wants, as long as you're willing to return the favor and cast whatever he asks instead of what you wanted to.
It seems logical that a renewable resource like channel would be a better use than a non renewable one like wands.
Not necessarily. I can't speak for the cleric in question, but mine gets only 5 channels per day, and gets bonuses to damage and save DC when channeling to harm undead. Thus, there's more value to be had channeling to harm than to heal, unless there's a very good reason to expect that there will not be any undead to fight that day.
I never tell another player how to run their character.
Ah, so you are okay with the cleric using his own resources as he sees fit. Good to know! So then, when faced with a decision of either not getting healed, playing a healing-capable class yourself, or getting a wand; you're upset that people pointed you toward the best option?
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Every PC I have, regardless of class or ability, has either a wand of CLW or Infernal Healing (arcane casters can use this) or sometimes both. Not everyone wants to play a healbot or a healing battery, and sometimes a true healer isn't even in the group. Get a wand and be responsible for your own healing.
My home group had no healing classes in the group for 4 levels and they were fine using wands. You can be too.
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Bleed Condition:
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
Observation (not mine): "Channel positive energy" is a supernatural ability. It doesn't stop bleed effects. (It does heal damage already accrued, though.)
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This is just my take, and YMMV, but...
In order to conceptualize why people keep mentioning that you should own your own WCLW, you must first analyze how and why healing takes place in scenarios. To do this you need to first separate in-combat (IC) versus out-of-combat (OOC) healing.
IC Healing should be done when it is the best use of an action, relative to alternatives, or will prevent catastrophic failure (e.g. character death). Since the group make up in PFS is essentially arbitrary, you should provide for said eventuality yourself (e.g. potion, etc.). However, in situations where the group takes AOE damage during an encounter, with threats present and needing to be dealt with, it may be the most efficient use of an action for a class with an aoe channel to use it. I'm assuming in your example that your group was not asking for you to use your wand during combat as opposed to a cleric's channel. Likewise, a higher-level cure spell might be useful in certain situations (e.g. healing a character at a chokepoint who provides cover against multiple hard hitting enemies).
OOC, you should be responsible for providing healing for yourself, as doing so provides the greatest strategic stockpiling of resources to overcome later obstacles in a scenario. Given that scenarios can (and often do) have 3-4 combat encounters during a single 24 hour period, using any channel or prepared spell to heal OOC significantly diminishes a divine caster's ability to contribute effectively during combat, when compared to using a wand. Using spell slots for a prepared divine caster diverts precious resources from controlling / support / buffing spells, which will have a greater impact during combat. Likewise, channels should be saved for the aforementioned 'mass aoe.'
Additionally, the cost of a WCLW is so cheap as to border on being overpowered from a cost/benefit analysis. It provides 50d8+50 healing for full usage, for 750gp or 2pp. This is NOTHING relative to your wealth. And, OOC, it would seem strange that you would expect others to provide this for you, as it is healing independent of class ability.
To give you some idea of how this scales, my ZA Monk, in addition to a wand of CLW, also has an 8 charge WCCW, and a scroll of Breath of Life, which he hands off to any character able to use it, with the instructions 'to use on ANYONE in the party who needs it during combat, if they see fit.' By providing these resources, at my own cost, I estimate I have a greater chance of success in any given encounter. However, the flip side is that I also expect other party members to recognize the calculus of IC/OOC healing and provide WCLWs for themselves for OOC healing, regardless of their class.
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Observation (not mine): "Channel positive energy" is a supernatural ability. It doesn't stop bleed effects. (It does heal damage already accrued, though.)Bleed Condition:
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
Yep. Makes me kinda sad. But if we have any inclination that we might be up against something that might possibly cause bleed, my groups general tactic is to use Infernal Healing all around. Just makes life easier. Prophylactic healing at its finest.
Fighters are expected to fight, but Cleric are not expected to heal.
To be fair, a cleric who chooses not to be a heal can do other things, like channel negative energy to harm, or use battlefield control, or buff the party, or do all sorts of nifty things with his domains and magic. Full casting is pretty awesome like that. A fighter who can't fight can
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I should not have to spend resources healing other people if I do not want to. According to MrSin if I am a cleric I have to spend my resources making sure the party is healed. If I demand someone bring their own wand when they are upset I do not have one it is out of line?
What does not go over well at tables I play at are people without wands demanding charges to get healed. If my character does not have a wand to lend to someone to heal me I do not expect them to spend charges of of theirs. If that 2PP is nothing, why can;t they have their own wands to?
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There is a gross double standard that has taken place with the 3.5/PFS community with regards to clerics. Fighters are expected to fight, but Cleric are not expected to heal.
The only double standard here is that the figher's expectation ("fight") can include any and every method and style at his disposal by putting his class features (primarily bonus feats) into whatever focus he likes; while the cleric, with a large and varied spell list and domain powers that go in all kinds of different directions, gets the expectation to focus on exactly one of his options and forego all the other things listed in his class description that might focus his attention on anything else.
Expecting a cleric to heal is like looking at an archer, greatsword-guy, two-weapon fighter, duelist, unarmed fighter, reach-polearm-tripper, style feat chain guy or grapple-monkey fighter and saying "Where's your damn shield, fighter?"
By contrast, your expectation of a fighter to "fight" is more accurately compared to expecting a cleric to cast spells and use their domain powers.
Treating aaaalllll those myriad paths a fighter could take as collectively equivalent to the single option of healing for a cleric is as asinine as treating the cleric's entire spell list and array of domain options as equivalent to a single combat feat chain.
I'm not going to get into the hypocrisy of an attitude that expects the fighter to suffer all the risk of a frontline fighter and provide his or her own healing at the same time.
Maybe if you cooperated with the cleric more instead of just wanting HP recovery, you might find his combat actions leaving you less in need of healing in the first place. For instance, I once solo'd an encounter against undead because my cleric's channels do extra damage and are harder to resist. Funnily enough, there wasn't much need for healing after I blew up a pack of sea ghouls with a single channel.
I can tell you that when I played D&D Online, parties might wait for an hour or more to find a cleric, and this is in game where death just meant xp debt. If it were your real life, it wouldn't even be debatable.
If it were my real life, I'd be more interested in someone who could help me not get beaten so badly in the first place than in someone whose only contribution is to prolong the fight until I can eventually finish it myself.
If the cleric won't heal, then the fighter shouldn't fight, the rogue shouldn't scout, and the wizard shouldn't cast.
See above for why treating "fight", "heal", "scout" and "cast" as equivalent expectations is simply ludicrous. It mostly just makes it look like you haven't read a class description since 1st Edition.
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Observation (not mine): "Channel positive energy" is a supernatural ability. It doesn't stop bleed effects. (It does heal damage already accrued, though.)Bleed Condition:
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
Interestingly, the Bleed entry in the Universal Monster Rules just says "magical healing" - it doesn't specify "spells".
According to MrSin if I am a cleric I have to spend my resources making sure the party is healed.
That's the exact opposite of what I said actually. I don't expect a cleric to heal, and I think people should bring their own resources rather than demand other people buy them for them.
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But if they aren't going to heal my front-line fighter, then he's forced to stop fighting.
Unless, you know, the combined power of fighter+cleric ends the fight fast enough that you don't need the healing in the first place.
Not long ago I started off with a blessing of fervor on the party, then stone shaped open a hole in a wall of stone that had a party member trapped alone with a monster, then silenced myself to become a 20ft-radius oasis of harpy immunity, then (even while silenced, thanks to blessing of fervor earlier) cast pilfering hand to disarm an archer from 30ft away.
Didn't heal a point of damage, yet amazingly, that fact didn't force anyone's front-line fighter to stop fighting. Maybe yours should take lessons from them?
But expecting my fighter to buy all his own gear, expose himself to all the ridiculous dangers of fighting up close and personal and then expecting him to provide all his own healing, is ...in a word...absurd.
Expecting me as a cleric of Iomedae to buy all my own gear, expose myself to all the ridiculous dangers of fighting up close and personal and then expecting me to provide all YOUR healing is, in a word, absurd.
If the cleric has no more spells to heal, then we fail the mission, or the cleric can take point.
I rarely cast healing spells, I always take point, and I've never failed a mission.
Maybe your fighter could learn a thing or two from the church of the Inheritor.
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I say play how you want to play. If you do not want to spend resources on consumbales, then don't.
At the same extention if another player does or does not buy consumables that is their choice.
I have never purchased a wand of cure light. I think they make the game too easy and that is my choice. If you wish to judge me poorly for that choice, thanks for telling me how to enjoy the game you obviously know what I enjoy more than myself. I appreciate a logical explanation of why I should or might be inclided to do something, but this is a game and I play it how I have fun. So I get to make the decision about my character. As well as TimrehIX shoudl about his characters.
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It mostly just makes it look like you haven't read a class description since 1st Edition.Because their primary roll is to provide healing.
In faith and the miracles of the divine, many find a greater purpose. Called to serve powers beyond most mortal understanding, all priests preach wonders and provide for the spiritual needs of their people. Clerics are more than mere priests, though; these emissaries of the divine work the will of their deities through strength of arms and the magic of their gods. Devoted to the tenets of the religions and philosophies that inspire them, these ecclesiastics quest to spread the knowledge and influence of their faith. Yet while they might share similar abilities, clerics prove as different from one another as the divinities they serve, with some offering healing and redemption, others judging law and truth, and still others spreading conflict and corruption. The ways of the cleric are varied, yet all who tread these paths walk with the mightiest of allies and bear the arms of the gods themselves.
Role: More than capable of upholding the honor of their deities in battle, clerics often prove stalwart and capable combatants. Their true strength lies in their capability to draw upon the power of their deities, whether to increase their own and their allies' prowess in battle, to vex their foes with divine magic, or to lend healing to companions in need.
So you're going to tell me that after reading that class description, which mentions healing only as options within lists of alternatives, and in fact talks less about healing than about martial combat, that you can still come away thinking that healing is the cleric's primary role?
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If you channel negative energy you can not spont heal.
Clerics are powerful classes and can destroy all threats in an adventure. They do not need to be repackaged.
If you tell the party my cleric does nto prepare cure spells and negatively channels, verus I am fighter and I do not fight. People will be inviting of the cleric.
A life oracle will out heal cleric if you are looking for someone to do it better.
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lol.
IME, clerics are like one of the least popular classes. I've sat at more tables than I can remember that don't have them. Oracles and Witches have decimated the clerical ranks. At Paizocon, I played three scenarios and NOBODY played a cleric except when I played Kyra in a 1-2 (and I sure as hell didn't expect people to hand me their cure wands and avoided using the one I got).
Because of that, clerics have had to be repackaged. They have to be made to look exciting and dynamic. But despite all that clever wording, Clerics are given spontaneous healing for a reason. I don't think another divine caster gets that ability. Clerics, unlike any other class, are designed to provide healing. Between 0 level spells like Rebuke Death, channeling positive energy, and cure spell conversion, no class does it better.
Can they do other things? Yes. Can they make it so healing isn't needed. Sometimes. Do people expect clerics to heal? yes. Just like they expect fighters to fight.
wow...this entire thread seems to be filled with rants.
I guess I can chip in too...
I guess I need to quit running Clerics.
I only have 2 - but then I often play with other people who have clerics, so I normally don't worry about them. I would guess that you don't encounter many clerics because people you play with don't play them. I wonder if the expectations you saddle other people with has anything to do with it? Surely not.
I have two clerics that Front Line (and heal too). And Alchemists that are party healers (one that has Breath of Life that he "casts" with a touch attack). I have Bards who provide healing in combat, and even a Rogue who has been know to cast some in combat healing (Infernal)...
OH! and I have a Fighter who keeps people alive in combat (though he's not very good at fighting... his dog is much better at that sort of thing than he is.) Last time I played him I relied on the party Cleric to kill the monsters. I just kept him alive, blocked and Body-guarded him whenever the mooks attacked him, he put the Bad Guys down.
But I can see where you might get a bit miffed at people not playing their PCs that way you expect them to. It used to kind of bother me when I sit at a table with 2 rogues and the only PC able to pick a lock was my wife's Wizard, or my sisters Fighter. It seems that the Rogues had more important things to do with their skill points...
But, WHY do you not want to spend resources on healing? I mean, a fighter can have the best AC in the game. So... it strikes me that if he is getting hit, he's falling down on that part of being a fighter. Does the Cleric have a better AC than you? And you call yourself the fighter?
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Clerics are given spontaneous healing for a reason.
That reason being so that they can have healing as an emergency option without having to prep those spells in advance.
I don't think another divine caster gets that ability.
You mean besides the oracle, a spontaneous caster who automatically gets all the cure spells on top of their normal spells known?
Clerics, unlike any other class, are designed to provide healing. Between 0 level spells like Rebuke Death, channeling positive energy, and cure spell conversion, no class does it better.
Except the life oracle, who actually has more class features devoted to healing than the cleric (even one with the healing domain) ever will.
Can they do other things? Yes. Can they make it so healing isn't needed. Sometimes.
When I'm playing my cleric (Thomas the Tiefling Hero, above), I'm always willing to burn a spell for an emergency heal if that's the most helpful thing I can do. I'm certainly not suggesting that I'll never cast a healing spell. I even carry a scroll of breath of life specifically to use on other people. However, in 8 levels of play, casting a healing spell on an ally has only been my best option on my turn approximately once. The rest of the time, I kept everyone safer by doing something else.
So if we're talking about in-combat healing, then I certainly keep that option in mind, and every cleric should. But if you think that a cleric (who isn't specifically and intentionally built as a healer) is going to assess his options each round, and decide that healing someone is the best way to contribute often enough that it could be described as their primary role, then you simply don't know the cleric class. Healing is an option in their repertoire, but it is FAR from their primary function.
If instead we're talking about after-combat healing, then you're claiming that after your fighter and my cleric were both standing toe-to-toe with the enemy, both swinging our swords (that we paid the same price for), both turning blows with our armor (which again, we paid the same price for), and both taking claws to the face, then after the fight I should be spending my wand charges on BOTH of us, instead of each of us covering our own? And you say that to do otherwise is "absurd"? No, expecting the guy fighting alongside you with the same risks and expenses that you have to also have to foot the bill for your healing in addition to his own is utterly selfish.
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I get that people don’t like spending their resources, but I spend mine as well and do what I can to keep the party alive and get missions done without complaint.What's keeping you from spending some resources on a wand of infernal healing or cure light wound? There's a certain irony in coming here to complain, it looked like you were targeting a cleric. I know a few people who hate being asked to heal as a cleric, because they didn't pick the cleric to heal others and actually don't like the channel class feature(Which you can't really trade out well, which kinda' sucks.)
[Calagnar] In the grand lodge getting his next mission.
[Me] {Takes a drink of ale} I can't channel so don't expect me to.[The other pathfinders] You mean you only have 1 or 2?
[Me] Nope I can't channel at all not even one time. I'll heal you if needed. Take care I can only heal one of you at a time with my wand. I try not to use any spells for healing.
[The other pathfinders] You really can't channel not even one time?
[Me] That's right.
Calagnar Ironfist
Cleric (Divine Strangest)
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I am pretty darn sick of being told I need to get a cure wand.
That's too bad, because you need to get a cure wand.
Because I get told every time I game
So, let's see ... you get told this every time you game (your words), but you're convinced that you're the one who is in the right, and everyone else is wrong? Well, that's also too bad, because you're outvoted.
I BOUGHT A G*D* CURE WAND!
... and it's irrelevant anyway, because you have finally realized that you do, in fact, need to get a cure wand, and now you seem to just want to tell everyone one last time that they're wrong. But that, too, is too bad, because you are still outvoted.