Golarion Atheists need not be exactly the same as RW Atheists.
Lets say they do believe in gods, fiends, celestials, heavens & hells, etc...
But they do NOT believe in the Divinity of such things. They think of outsiders as just super-powerful mortals, and 'the gods' are just more powerful versions of them. These Atheists have 'proof' of their beliefs - several 'gods' have simply touched a rock (The Starstone) and become 'gods' - is that not proof that a god is just a mortal who has somehow gained unfathomable power? That doesn't make them 'divine', it simply makes them uber-mages.
Thats how I would spin Golarion Atheists - they do not believe gods are actual Gods. Bill Gates and Oprah Winfrey have far more 'power' then me, but I do not believe they are gods. On a world where 'magic' is an everyday occurrence, if anything, believing in Divinity should be even less likely then in our own RW ancient times. If someone can do something normal people can't, I'd just think he (or she) was a wizard, is all. There is nothing a 'god' can do that a mortal (in fantasy) can't eventually emulate.
Wouldn't the presence of so many religions in the real world mean at least one of them.would be guilty of this?
No. I'm not aware of any religion that ever existed just to make people think there is a god(s) believing there is no such thing. Even if some cults may have started off with a few scum bags like this were quickly replaced by believers.
If its occurring in the real world, what makes it so crazy in golarion?
Invalid question; the real world lacks dragons, and a 100 other things. It is comparing apples and tires.
You have to remember that the idea of a massive conspiracy seems unlikely in a place with zone of truth. But you aren't just denying the idea of one church, you're denying all the churches (Zon-kuthon and Sarenrae don't deny each other like Wiccans and Christians do). And common knowledge. And well documented histories. And contemporary spell casters who've seen them. And outsiders. And people who've traveled. It would be like thinking something that Icke style lizard people.
What does that have to do with the OP's question?that's not what i was asking, TriOmega.
I was asking you to explain a concept of divinity that Sarenrae doesn't meet.
gah. It has *everything* to do with the OPs question. The OP asked for advice on doing atheists in Pathfinder. I suggested that this would be impossible because the presence of deities is pretty well-established. Then somebody decided that gods could just be "really powerful outsiders".
For an example, I suggested Sarenrae is a god.
Response: She's a really powerful outsider.
And now we're here. Okay, if Sarenrae is not a god, what qualifies as a god? What do you have to be in order to be considered a god? And how exactly would Sarenrae lack those qualifications?
If you are an atheist, you do not believe in god(s), ergo, Serenrae nor anyone else could possibly be a god, since there is no such thing.
There are simply mortals - some of whom are unbelievably powerful. There is no 'higher order' of existence to an atheist... its all 'parlor tricks'.
An atheist is not an agnostic - they don't have to qualify anything. If I didn't believe in dogs, and you showed me a dog, I would say, "thats a weird-looking cat!" I wouldn't need to explain why it isn't a dog, because there aren't any dogs.
There are simply mortals - some of whom are unbelievably powerful. There is no 'higher order' of existence to an atheist...
You could believe in higher orders of creatures/immortals without thinking they are gods, or gods exist.
And now we're here. Okay, if Sarenrae is not a god, what qualifies as a god? What do you have to be in order to be considered a god? And how exactly would Sarenrae lack those qualifications?To the atheist in Golarion?
Nothing. Nothing in Golarion qualifies.
And thus you have atheism in Golarion.
again, not what I meant. Not sure how I can be more clear... Presumably your so-called atheists would have a definition of the word "deity" am I right? What would that definition be?
Why wouldn't Sarenrae qualify?
Why isn't she worthy of veneration?
Because an Atheist doesn't believe ANYTHING should be worshiped. Thats the whole point of atheism.
Its not that they do not believe those entities exist (in Golarion, not RW), its that they do not believe in their 'divinity'. Godhood is just another tier to be achieved by mortals, is all. The Starstone would definitely be the main argument any Golatheist would use to support their arguments.
If having 'super powers' is a reason to worship something, then just about any archmage should also be worshiped, right? Whats the difference, from a purely mortal, 'normal person' perspective?
What we are losing sight of is the afterlife concept - Atheists would not believe in that; thats part of the whole 'divinity' concept they abhor. An atheist (with some knowledge) would have to believe in the Outer Planes, but they would probably just believe you go to the plane closest to your alignment, and it has nothing to do with 'gods' (which is precisely how I run it, BTW). How you behave in life would dictate where you go, but it would be a purely mechanical aspect of the universe, and not something any uber-beings have control over (from their PoV).
Wouldn't the presence of so many religions in the real world mean at least one of them.would be guilty of this?No. I'm not aware of any religion that ever existed just to make people think there is a god(s) believing there is no such thing. Even if some cults may have started off with a few scum bags like this were quickly replaced by believers.
If its occurring in the real world, what makes it so crazy in golarion?Invalid question; the real world lacks dragons, and a 100 other things. It is comparing apples and tires.
You have to remember that the idea of a massive conspiracy seems unlikely in a place with zone of truth. But you aren't just denying the idea of one church, you're denying all the churches (Zon-kuthon and Sarenrae don't deny each other like Wiccans and Christians do). And common knowledge. And well documented histories. And contemporary spell casters who've seen them. And outsiders. And people who've traveled. It would be like thinking something that Icke style lizard people.
I can think of a couple that started that way (I won't name names to be polite). I don't think you're capable of making the statement that there are no scumbags like this in religions than I am to say that they all are. In fact, we have a perfectly perfect example of this happening in Golarion at any rate. Razmiran. It's irrelevant that he has true believers, his religion is in fact a ploy just as you describe.
The idea of anyone lying at all seems unlikely in a place with Zone of Truth. And yet it happens. Now perhaps if there were a real place and not a fantasy setting, it would be the case that no one lies. Instead we are treated to a world with fantastic spells and unknown planes and magic. And yet people can still get away with murder and lying. So why are conspiracies out of the question? Anyone already cooking up such a conspiracy theory may well believe in an anti zone of truth spell that would allow them to perpetuate their lies (And in Golarion that COULD be possible).
Plenty of Jesus' followers said they saw him after he was raised from the dead. That doesn't mean everyone accepts it. Most people in Golarion aren't spell casters and don't have any more contact with deities (or even magic) than we do in the real world. To them this whole gods thing could be analogous to the Illuminati. And that sounds like tinfoil hat territory. Except in a world of magic, it's actually possible. Zon and Sarenrae not denying each other is irrelevant if you think they're both phonies. Common knowledge is the Dark Ages was sure God existed too (along with the earth being the center of the universe). Commonality doesn't equal truth. And how much documented "history" is there in the real world that contains magic and falsehoods (even at the same time!)?
Also, saying it's an invalid question because Golarion has things the real world doesn't have is the opposite of the point you were trying to make. I could also say, Golarion and Earth both have humans so it's comparing apples to apples. The idea was that things on earth ARE on golarion. As far as I know there is nothing that has happened on earth that couldn't hypothetically happen on Golarion.
Here in the real world, a lot of people use magical explanations for things they don't understand. Golarion is a place where all of those things could be (and sometimes are) actually the case. So to dismiss anything because it's out of this world makes no sense when that's exactly the setting we're talking about.
But, just like the real world had pharoahs and buddhas and other living gods (I know Buddha didn't claim to be a god, but he was fantastical), an atheist in Golarion wouldn't have to deny that the deities don't exist in some fashion at all, just that they are all liars, scammers, or disillusioned, or some such. Again, that Razmiran has achieved this makes it not an impossibility.
We're still working on definitions here. Let me give you the run-down of the last couple of posts in case you've forgotten.
1. Sarenrae isn't a deity.
2. What is a deity then?
3. A supernatural being worthy of veneration.
4. Sarenrae seems to be that though.
5. She's not worthy of veneration.
6. Why not?
7. Because she isn't a deity.
Your reasoning is circular.
The idea that all of the religious leaders in Golaron colluded to make people belief that the Gods exist, and have been perpetuating the myth for centuries is what puts you into tinfoil hat territory.
No tinfoil hat required for a number of possibilities
1) The people could be mistaken, not hustling.
2) The beings could exist but not be special, just have hyper inflated egos of their own self worth.
I can think of a couple that started that way (I won't name names to be polite).
And zero that stayed that way.
I can think of a couple that started that way (I won't name names to be polite). I don't think you're capable of making the statement that there are no scumbags like this in religions than I am to say that they all are. In fact, we have a perfectly perfect example of this happening in Golarion at any rate. Razmiran. It's irrelevant that he has true believers, his religion is in fact a ploy just as you describe.
And he is barely pulling it off with making sure that while he is alive he has strongly rewards those helping him. It seems unlikely that will go on past his death. Also in the real world you can find dozens of crazy cults with false gods. They just have the one.
The idea of anyone lying at all seems unlikely in a place with Zone of Truth. And yet it happens. Now perhaps if there were a real place and not a fantasy setting, it would be the case that no one lies. Instead we are treated to a world with fantastic spells and unknown planes and magic. And yet people can still get away with murder and lying. So why are conspiracies out of the question? Anyone already cooking up such a conspiracy theory may well believe in an anti zone of truth spell that would allow them to perpetuate their lies (And in Golarion that COULD be possible).
Sure you can have that guy. And to think that all the churches are in on it together with all the planar travelers, high level casters, historians, and outsiders are all just lying
Plenty of Jesus' followers said they saw him after he was raised from the dead. That doesn't mean everyone accepts it. Most people in Golarion aren't spell casters and don't have any more contact with deities (or even magic) than we do in the real world. To them this whole gods thing could be analogous to the Illuminati. And that sounds like tinfoil hat territory. Except in a world of magic, it's actually possible. Zon and Sarenrae not denying each other is irrelevant if you think they're both phonies. Common knowledge is the Dark Ages was sure God existed too (along with the earth being the center of the universe). Commonality doesn't equal truth.
Thinking both are phonies is one thing; thinking that the dozens of gods, and at least some of the highest levels of their clergies along with everyone else who must be in on it is very much crazy town.
And how much documented "history" is there in the real world that contains magic and falsehoods (even at the same time!)?
Lots. How many proven, world spanning multi-organization conspiracies are proven on Earth? Zero.
Also, saying it's an invalid question because Golarion has things the real world doesn't have is the opposite of the point you were trying to make. I could also say, Golarion and Earth both have humans so it's comparing apples to apples. The idea was that things on earth ARE on golarion. As far as I know there is nothing that has happened on earth that couldn't hypothetically happen on Golarion.
Even if the above is a true statement, how many proven world spanning multi-organization conspiracies are proven on Earth? Zero.
Here in the real world, a lot of people use magical explanations for things they don't understand. Golarion is a place where all of those things could be (and sometimes are) actually the case. So to dismiss anything because it's out of this world makes no sense when that's exactly the setting we're talking about.
Lots of people use those explanations. But in the real world you can't go hire a completely uninterested expert to take you someplace to see those beings who is likely to do it and return you unharmed.
But, just like the real world had pharoahs and buddhas and other living gods (I know Buddha didn't claim to be a god, but he was fantastical), an atheist in Golarion wouldn't have to deny that the deities don't exist in some fashion at all, just that they are all liars, scammers, or disillusioned, or some such. Again, that Razmiran has achieved this makes it not an impossibility.
True, his delusion could take many forms.
Why isn't she worthy of veneration?Because there are plenty of non-deities that can do everything she can do. What is the difference between a demon lord and her?
She punched out Rovagug?
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I'm a bit confused about the definition of atheism here. I've always been under the impression that atheism is disbelief in a divine being on the basis of a lack of evidence. The reason it works here is because a god concept cannot be proven by any method of observation or comprehension we have. Gods CAN be observed and comprehended on Golarion if you're high-level enough. So it stops being a matter of faith with Golarion and instead a matter of science.
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Gods CAN be observed and comprehended on Golarion if you're high-level enough. So it stops being a matter of faith with Golarion and instead a matter of science.
Individuals of a high enough level can commune with or perhaps even encounter beings that *call themselves gods,* but that doesn't mean that they are.
And the *vast* majority of people in the game world won't ever have that opportunity, only hearing from a tiny percentage of people (that universally seem to be the heads of churches to said 'gods' and have enormous financial and secular reasons to maintain the charade that the zillions of gold pieces and followers and fancy hats they have at their beck and call are going to some higher power).
Even the mid-level clerics, who might be able to cast commune, don't necessarily talk face to face with their gods, and so, despite having faith, don't *know* that their gods exist (or, if they do exist, are anything at all like the entities they believe they are. Every cleric in Golarion could be getting their spells from Cthulhu, for all they know, it's not like Cthulhu couldn't change his appearance for the one in a thousand clergy who could actually plane shift and visit their god in person).
Well, except Cthulhu's imprisoned on Earth and furthermore can't grant spells with the law or good descriptors =P
The gods of Golarian aren't silent, inscrutable entities; they give signs of their favor and disfavor (which sometimes aren't remotely subtle), and frequently dispatch servants to the world.
I suppose one could take the Athar approach of "they're not really gods; they're just outsiders who are stronger than us." The Athar claimed that if there was a god, it would be a being utterly incomprehensible to us and probably impossible to interact with. Athar actually considered the Powers being close enough to mortals to actually be able to hear mortals prayers proof that the Powers weren't high enough above mortals to be gods.
Of course, in the reality the Athar inhabited the Powers were also dependent on mortal belief to survive.
The deities of the Golarian cosmology have no such dependency, and a number of them predate the existence of mortal life.
Hmmm. A Golarian native actually trying to claim that the gods don't exist at all is pretty far out there, and takes the sort stubborn bullheadedness associated with the Flat Earth or Young Earth movements. It pretty much requires a flat rejection of reality in order to sustain such a belief.
From what I've seen browsing through this thread everything comes down to semantics.
a·the·ist
[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Hell, by that definition you must disbelieve the existence of every supreme being ever.
su·preme
1 [suh-preem, soo-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
highest in rank or authority; paramount; sovereign; chief.
2.
of the highest quality, degree, character, importance, etc.: supreme courage.
3.
greatest, utmost, or extreme: supreme disgust.
4.
last or final; ultimate.
Somewhere out there there is a guy, and that guy has a bigger bonus to his Profession (cook) score than anyone else in Golarion, and one time when he bakes a lemon souffle he rolls a natural 20, and that means that he is SUPREME at creating lemon souffle, and since he is a being you would have to completely disbelieve the existence of that man (who you can meet, and whose souffle you can sample) in order to be an "atheist".
My point is that the definitions and semantics are stupid and we need to actually discuss what people in Golarion believe. I see several arguments and points being raised.
In order to be considered an atheist in Golarion you belive:
1. That beings named Sarenrae, Iomeade, or Asmodeus exist.
2. These beings are powerful extra planar creatures.
3. They are NOT gods, they do NOT deserve worshiped.
This argument comes down to semantics again. If they exist and you believe they exist it doesn't matter if you call them gods, dieties, or powerful non-deistic extra planar creatures. You believe in their existence. If we define atheism as not believing in such beings then you are not an atheist. If we define atheism as not revering such beings then you are an atheist. We aren't arguing about whether it's feasible to be an atheist in Golarion, we're arguing about what an atheist is in Golarion.
We're still working on definitions here. Let me give you the run-down of the last couple of posts in case you've forgotten.
1. Sarenrae isn't a deity.
2. What is a deity then?
3. A supernatural being worthy of veneration.
4. Sarenrae seems to be that though.
5. She's not worthy of veneration.
6. Why not?
7. Because she isn't a deity.Your reasoning is circular.
There's a difference between a circular argument and a tautology.
1. If you drop an object through a vacuum it accelerates towards the earth at a rate of 32ft/s/s
2. Why?
3. Because if you drop an object through a vacuum it accelerates towards the earth at a rate of 32ft/s/s
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Atheism would come in several contexts in these cases:
-In RL, Atheists are more likely of the viewpoint that a god or gods (immortal beings of immense, unexplainable, immeasurable powers) do not exist for practical reasons (we've never observed one before, what cannot be measured does not exist, etc.). There are exceptions, but this is usually the most common case.
-In a world such as Golarion, the reasons for doing so would probably be more varied -- those that believe gods are merely beings with powerful, difficult-to-attain abilities, only worthy of the respect their strengths can afford them, as one would respect and obey the authority of a nation/kingdom (practical); those that believe gods are deceitful tyrants that would have others believe their power gives them some form of dominion over mortals (moral); some that have attained such power as to give themselves a unique perspective -- one that would have them see these 'gods' in a less than divine nature (practical?).
I think in each of these cases is a common element -- a lack of faith that would place a deity as the end-all, be-all of an individual's existence. Just my two bits.
