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Wow!
Someone turns up with an AGENDA and suddenly this whole thread is completely side-tracked.
So, maybe we could stick to the plight of the disadvantaged in countries like Greece which are facing economic unrest.
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Greece is not, as far as I can tell, a fundamentally flawed nation: it has a high-level of education, a broadly cohesive society that, functioning systems of governance, decent infrastructure...
Greece has tourism, shipping, agriculture and fisheries as major industries and these should all strengthen as the world economy recovers.
Will Greece actually be able to pay their debts and rebuild as a functional society with less tax evasion? Or is that unlikely?
Greece is not fundamentally flawed. But they never belonged in the EU. They essentially cooked their books to qualify to join, and its hurt them ever since. It's still hurting them. The Austerity measures being put in place while logical, rational, and responsible, dont mesh with fundamental greek values. People are angry, so the governement actually trying to manage the crisis, is loosing support, while those that would just flip the table and tell everyone off are gaining power.
The Euro is too strong for their economy, the limits placed on agriculture hurts their farmers, and they dont have the financial market strength to handle alot of what the EU is trying to accomplish. And now with the mess that their economy is in, tourism is flagging as well. My brother was in Greece recently during a literal nation wide strike. Not exactly the way to make sure the tourists enjoyed their stay.
They are going to hurt for a long time unless something changes drastically, because the austerity measures being pushed on them (not without good reason, but their effect is still just as real), are not going to help revive a flagging economy. There is a real sense of hopelessness among the youth who simply dont know what do to with that education they have, how do you get the equivalent of a masters degree and then go work in a candy store?
I worry for my family there, and while yea, they are idiots for thinking they could get away with dodging taxes for their whole lives, they are now faced with a government not set up to handle collecting them that is trying to do it anyway. For instance property taxes are now being collected at set rates with little concern for the actual value of the property. That happens in lots of places where homes, and property are misvalued, however, at the moment there is no way to appeal the value being taxed, where as in the US I could have my home appraised and use that as evidence to get my property taxes adjusted.
Economic downturn on a scale not seen in the country for a long time, a generation of youth with little to know direction, economic pressure from outside nations in response to actions of the previous generation. A current government that seems impotent and incompetant. You have a recipe for some really bad political results. It is not wrong to draw a line with Germany in the 30's, the conditions resemble eachother. I dont think you could see the same kind of result, mostly because you dont have the kind of nationalism or potential for unity in Greece that you do in other nations. But the chances of the country going to a dark place is real.
I also think there are alot of lessons that the world, and in particular the US should be paying attention to. While more extreme, all of the things that have lead to economic distaster there are present here. Lack of financial responsibility on the part of government officials...there are people who are still in office today who thought it would be ok for the US to default on its debts. Economic hardship, particularly in the form of youth, and also of the educated youth (see balooning student loan debt and the flagging entry level job market). A culture that views paying taxes as an evil, with all manor of people but especially the wealthy going out of their way to not pay taxes and not being demonized for it, thus exhaserbating that financial irresponsibilty.
Its there, and its scary, and honestly, the world is so friggan inter connected today, that even a relatively small country like Greece, threw the world economy for a loop by being in crisis. Imagining the United States in such a crisis is not so far fetched, and the results would be damning to not just the US, but the world.
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So let's have some context for the term "capitalism" so we can truly understand what is meant by it, and can distinguish it from entrepreneurialism or the free market or mercantalism.
In basic economics (see Adam Smith), we learn that there are 3 main factors of production. Land, labor and capital. Land is a general term for a raw resource, and can be taken to mean anything from actual mineral wealth to solar energy. Capital is already-produced good that aids in the production of a good or service, such as tools.
Capital itself requires both land (raw resources) and labor to produce.
The term capitalism was, depending on who you ask, coined by either Marx or Engels as a derisive term for a system in which those that own/control the capital keep ALL the profit for any economic activity.
This is a definition in contrast to socialism in which the ownership of the capital (means of production) is held by the laborers. Not necessarily the state. Just so that the profit gained by the economic activity is equally spread between those who participated, since they all have an equal share in ownership of the means of production.
So, by its very definition as originally defined, capitalism means you can NEVER become an elite because if you don't already own the means of production you'll never have the means to purchase/own it.
Whether something is capitalist or socialist has no bearing on whether the economy enjoys a free market. You can have free market socialism (in which all firms are worker cooperatives, and still compete for a profit) and you can have non-free market capitalism (where there are restrictions on certain economic activities see: the entirety of the known world).
I'm not a fan of "austerity", I agree that spending your way out of a recession is usually the best bet. Greece's government budget was ridiculous, corrupt and wasteful though. Just funding the government budget would have been throwing good money after bad and it's hard to commit to major projects and programs when you have that much overspending on bad programs.
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I'm not a fan of "austerity", I agree that spending your way out of a recession is usually the best bet. Greece's government budget was ridiculous, corrupt and wasteful though. Just funding the government budget would have been throwing good money after bad and it's hard to commit to major projects and programs when you have that much overspending on bad programs.
So if a person cannot pay their loans the answer is more loans?
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I'm not a fan of "austerity", I agree that spending your way out of a recession is usually the best bet. Greece's government budget was ridiculous, corrupt and wasteful though. Just funding the government budget would have been throwing good money after bad and it's hard to commit to major projects and programs when you have that much overspending on bad programs.So if a person cannot pay their loans the answer is more loans?
From your description of Capitalism and Socialism above one could get the idea that you've either failed or never taken a basic political science class.
Now you're using the same right-wing tactic of comparing a country's economy to a household economy, which might sound mightly smart (to those who don't understand such matters), but isn't.I'd suggest taking some basic courses or at least read some basic political science and economics books.
I'm not a fan of "austerity", I agree that spending your way out of a recession is usually the best bet. Greece's government budget was ridiculous, corrupt and wasteful though. Just funding the government budget would have been throwing good money after bad and it's hard to commit to major projects and programs when you have that much overspending on bad programs.So if a person cannot pay their loans the answer is more loans?
Do you know the difference between a country and a person?
Do you know the difference between a country and a person?
Corporations are people!
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I am concerned about what is happening in Greece and Hungrary, as we have parties appealing to hatred of others trying to gain power. This is immoral and dangerous, as second class citizenship always ends with someone facing horrific abuse.
As for austerity, it has failed to help the people of the countries where it has been tried. Can we just put it in the same category of bad ideas as bloodletting to cure bad humors in one's body?
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I'm not a fan of "austerity", I agree that spending your way out of a recession is usually the best bet. Greece's government budget was ridiculous, corrupt and wasteful though. Just funding the government budget would have been throwing good money after bad and it's hard to commit to major projects and programs when you have that much overspending on bad programs.So if a person cannot pay their loans the answer is more loans?
I'm curious, do you want to have an actual discussion? Or are you only interested in trying to score 'points' in some imaginary game?
A country is not an individual. What works for one person doesn't not necessarily work for millions (as a group) and vice versa.
I understand you kind of have a refusal to admit that sometimes different circumstances exist for different people, but they continue to do so (exist) regardless of your willingness to admit it.
You also might find it interesting, Greece didn't spent an abnormal amount of money compared to other European countries. But they did have an abnormally low tax rate.
Average EU gov't spending: 50.7% of GDP
Average EU gov't revenue: 43.9%
Greece spending: 50.4%
Greece revenue: 36.9%
Greece did have a few standout programs there were problematic and not useful, but they didn't represent a massive portion of the budget.
The problem with cutting government spending during a recession is that usually job growth is low or even negative. If the government cuts spending, that usually necessitates laying off workers. Laying off workers tends to put the economy into a downward spiral.
Companies make less money, so they lay off workers.
Laid off workers have less money to spend, so companies make less money.
Companies make less money, so they lay off workers.
etc
etc
Reducing government spending during a time of crisis only adds to the problem. Instead, the government should increase spending to help stabilize the economy and return it to growth. It often doesn't take much, infuse some money, help fix whatever is causing uncertainty and wait.
I would agree that governments have a hard time scaling back those programs after the need is over. It's hard for the government to give up revenue and spending streams during times of plenty, because elected officials use them to help win votes. During the good times we need to be better about asking our government to downsize, but during an economic slowdown is the wrong time to do it.
If your boat is taking on water, you're better off handing out buckets than trying to figure out who to toss of the boat to lessen the load.
I am concerned about what is happening in Greece and Hungrary, as we have parties appealing to hatred of others trying to gain power. This is immoral and dangerous, as second class citizenship always ends with someone facing horrific abuse.
It seems to have seen a slight rise in other countries too. Or maybe it has just become more apparent/"legitimate" to have those xenophobic views?
English Defence League (and their similar "chapters" in other countries, like Danish Defence League), Danish People's Party (several high ranking members have expressed very racist and homophobic opinions), Sverigedemokraterna (the Swedish Democrats), the massive demonstrations in France up to and even after the legilization of same sex marriage etc.All examples of a more fractured populace and political spectrum, with the, apparent, main goal of creating scapegoats for all the "ills" of society.
Sad to say people haven't advanced at all. Things get tough and people go right for the convenient minorities.
So if a person cannot pay their loans the answer is more loans?
Yes actually.Its not the only step but its a necessary one.
Once someone is broke.. dead broke, its incredibly hard to come out of it. I don't mean homeless for a few months sleeping on friends couches, i mean living in the streets broke. You don't have a car limiting your job search opportunities to within a few miles of your current location. Your health deteriorates, you don't have the wardrobe for an office job, a location to receive mail from, a working telephone to do follow up calls from...getting out of that rut is hard.
For a country the problem is that you get a lot of people out of work. They loose their job skills, they loose their income, and that ripples. The construction worker doesn't get paid, he doesn't go to the deli for lunch, buy a car, or buy a home. The college kid can't get a job so they can't pay back their student loans, or at the very least they're earning 20k a year instead of 70k... and that cost the government money in the long run in lost taxes.
The Greek workers have expended enough energy to overthrow capitalism, like, a dozen times over since the crisis started.
Smash austerity!
Smash the Golden Dawn!
For workers mobilizations to defend immigrants, transsexuals, drug addicts, prostitutes and all of the oppressed!
Default on the debts!
Exit the capitalist EU! Piss on Merkel and Lagarde!
For international proletarian socialist revolution!
For a chance for Citizen R. to go back to school!
Vive le Galt!
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So if a person cannot pay their loans the answer is more loans?Yes actually.Its not the only step but its a necessary one.
Once someone is broke.. dead broke, its incredibly hard to come out of it. I don't mean homeless for a few months sleeping on friends couches, i mean living in the streets broke. You don't have a car limiting your job search opportunities to within a few miles of your current location. Your health deteriorates, you don't have the wardrobe for an office job, a location to receive mail from, a working telephone to do follow up calls from...getting out of that rut is hard.
For a country the problem is that you get a lot of people out of work. They loose their job skills, they loose their income, and that ripples. The construction worker doesn't get paid, he doesn't go to the deli for lunch, buy a car, or buy a home. The college kid can't get a job so they can't pay back their student loans, or at the very least they're earning 20k a year instead of 70k... and that cost the government money in the long run in lost taxes.
Ad if they borrowed 25 trillion and built a million six megawatt wind turbines they could have a descent profit to build their economy.
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I'm not a fan of "austerity", I agree that spending your way out of a recession is usually the best bet. Greece's government budget was ridiculous, corrupt and wasteful though. Just funding the government budget would have been throwing good money after bad and it's hard to commit to major projects and programs when you have that much overspending on bad programs.So if a person cannot pay their loans the answer is more loans?
The household budget is a lousy analogy. Comparing a country to a corporation makes more sense.
Struggling corporations frequently leverage their assets (i.e. issue bonds or new stock offerings) to generate the necessary capital to invest in their operations and become a profitable enterprise.
Ecomonies work similarly. Raise capital; invest; get things moving again; then stop borrowing. (Politicians struggle with that last step.)
For nations the mentality of spending should be backwards. Spend during the bad times, cut back and save during the good ones. The problem is while the elected officials have some understanding of the first, they are mostly incapable of following the second. Any surplus is not used to pay back debts, but to pass tax cuts and new programs.
Yeah, well, there is that inconvenient thing called an "election".
You really want to do something meaningful? Find some group that's actually DOING something, such as supporting civil disobedience, lobbying, or staging protests and kick some dollars their way, instead of taking the easy way out, and salving your conscience with a meaningless petition.
I'll keep a lookout since my conscience is hardly salved, I wouldn't have said "I'd like to know what I can do beside sign a petition," if it were. Speaking of which, here's the link for anyone who's interested.
Until I can find Greek protesters or lobbyists to support I can donate to the HRC foundation, it's not Greece specific but it's better than nothing.
If you want to put your name on something, make it a letter to your representative, or the Ambassador from Greece.
Shouldn't be hard; they have a website, a consulate in my city, and even an email address. What I need to figure out is what exactly I should say, and whether or not to take an aggressive tone.
Hey!
Whose youse callin' "ugly"?
Friggin' palooka.
As far as being aggressive? What are you going to back that up with? Threaten an invasion?
Pfft, no, I was thinking of threatening a badmouthing. Greece needs tourism, right? My thinking was to tell him that I'd tell my friends to avoid Greece until the situation improves.
Admittedly, if Greeks see US American tourists as ugly Americans (as in loud, ostentatious, and culturally insensitive) then perhaps that tactic would backfire. I'll keep in mind your recommendation of appealing to Greek values, as well as other advice.
Oh Florida. Americas wang.
Indiana, America's butt. Our state gov. is sold out to ALEC, and our governor is a total skeezy Jesus freak and evil to the core.
Indiana, America's butt. Our state gov. is sold out to ALEC, and our governor is a total skeezy Jesus freak and evil to the core.
There seems to be a lot of that going around.
Sincerely,
The State of Wisconsin
P.S. Indiana smells like a butt.
Indeed. I've driven through it.
How does putting trannies in a camp fix your economic problems?
Indeed. I've driven through it.
How does putting [redacted] in a camp fix your economic problems?
Please don't use that word, it's rather derogatory.
Sure, why not?
Because it's related to the porn industry and a lot of transgender people dislike that connection.
Was actually a rhetorical question, but thanks.
They name this operation after a god who turned into a swan to mate with a woman, yet they have problems with a man dressing as a woman...
So, according to that speech by the German comrade I posted above, it's even worse.
As we D&D geeks know the Greek gods hadn't different titles to cover the different aspects of their, um, domains.
"The state has set up camps and is carrying out mass arrests in an operation cynically titled “Xenios Zeus” (Zeus as protector of guests and hospitality). In early August, 2,000 immigrants were arrested in Athens and similar actions were carried out in major cities like Patras and Thessaloniki. By the end of August, over 12,000 immigrants had been arrested or imprisoned. The Greek police’s “Special Units for the Restoration of Public Order” went into the cities and arrested people, working hand in glove with the largely fascist citizen militias that exist in some towns." (Emphasis added)
All ancient Greek myth lovers and revolutionary socialists, please sign my petition for international proletarian socialist revolution and join my plea to Zeus Aegiochis to strike down the Greek state and their fascist attack dogs.
Vive le Galt!