| DMDark |
Hello, thank you for taking the time to read. I've been playing DnD and PF for a total of 11 years.I've DM'd a few times in this time but have recently got back into DMing. In the most recent session we held one of the player characters got killed. It was an extremely lucky shot from a bow that caused a crit. I worked out the odds of it happening and it was 300 to 1.
We laughed, we giggled and the game went on as normal. I explained that a new character needed to be made and I allowed him to get the xp from the session and to let it carry over. I felt this was fair and it did show my group of people that shit happens, people die.
Now this was the group's 3rd session, they're all new to PF and I did feel bad that one of them got unlucky enough to be instantly killed (a small note, he was on 2 hp at the time of the kill shot) one of the members of this group linked me a subreddit post about DMs who fudge dicerolls. Then asked me to give this new character a free pass to not die instantly, should the unlikiness happen again.
To me this was her asking me to 'cheat' and I completely dismissed the idea entirely. I explained to her the odds of it happening in the first place let alone it happening again. I then further explained the multiple ways that death can be avoided. such a healing spells which they had available but didnt use. withdrawing from the engagement or hiding behind something if you feel things are getting too rough. Surely the excitement of knowing something can go terribly wrong will be removed should they believe I'm willing to hold back on my rolls. Surely they would ignore buying potions or filling up spell slots with defensive magic if they believe I wont allow another character to die in the next few weeks.
In my eyes fudging dice rolls removes the viability of certain classes, builds, spells and preperations and armour in fact! It removes the excitement of success, it removes the 'plan B' because something went wrong. Some of my favourite moments lie in the bad rolls that killed my character or made a plan go sour. On top of those moments of heroic events, fighting against the odds just to save your fellow player from dying!
I believe I went off on a tangent then. Back to the point. Because I said no to fudging dice and explained the freedom of how to avoid being killed she then insinuated that I was a bad DM. A bad DM because I won't fudge dice rolls.
opinions and advice please. should I fudge or should I help them understand their unlimited options
| Matthew Downie |
Different players like different things. Some aren't happy unless there's a threat of imminent death. Some aren't happy unless they're confident of surviving to the end of the campaign.
You're not a bad GM for saying no - even if you were going to fudge dice rolls, telling the players you're going to fudge would make any future victories feel unearned.
But do try to get a feel for what type of game your players want and look for ways to provide it. Maybe they need you to remind them when they're taking foolish risks before it gets them killed. Maybe they need to find a scroll of Raise Dead so a truly beloved character can be brought back.
| DMDark |
Thanks for the advice. our first session was world building and the campaign style is open world. I explained the possibility of characters dying and they did accept that. I think they just didn't expect the possibility happening so soon and they think the chance of it happening again is pretty high. Even after I worked out the odds.
I think I may have to give them their options on a plate.
| Blueluck |
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I've played and GMed a lot of different games over the last 20 years, in lots of different settings, for lots of different groups. There is a wide variety of opinion on the matter, but let me describe how I approach fudging die rolls.
- I don't tell players I will fudge rolls.
Telling them you'll fudge rolls provokes the list of behaviors you described, like not using healing, not retreating, nor neglecting potions. Telling players you'll fudge rolls is like telling them what's in the dungeon before they enter - it spoils the fun. - I don't fudge die rolls often.
An understanding of probability will show that, in the long run, dice are fair. If I start fudging attack rolls against a player who I feel is getting hit too often, even if I think they're getting unlucky, then I've simply given them an advantage compared to their fellow players. I trust that the dice will make up the variance eventually. - If I think a challenge is unfair, I change the bonus or DC rather than fudging the roll.
This is mostly an issue with published adventure material, rather than something I make up myself. If an adventure calls for DC 30 climb checks at level 1, over lava that deals 5d6 damage to a character who falls into it, that's not fun! Everybody's just going to die! I'll just change that to DC 25 and 1d6/round until you climb out, or something more appropriate. Whenever possible, the time to make that change is when you spot the problem, not after the die has been cast. - I will fudge die rolls to make a better story.
Some rolls control stories, like rolls for weather, random encounters, treasure, etc. Those are total fudge-bait! Basically I'm talking about anything I could have written into the adventure but decided to roll instead of write.For example, if I roll a random encounter with enemies who don't fit in at all, would be a total waste of time (CR-5), or would just eat the party (CR+5), I just pick something else. Maybe I'll use the thing I rolled as inspiration, like a group of 1d4 goblins might become a goblin adventuring party that mimics the PC's party, or an ancient dragon might be a dying ancient dragon with a last request, or maybe I just ignore the roll altogether.
- I will fudge rolls in short-term games, just so everyone gets to play.
When I run a game at a convention, I don't kill PCs unless they really screw up bad. (Or if it's a game where everyone expects to die, of course.) If you travel 100 miles, pay $50, and rent a hotel room just to play a few four-hour RPGs, then I want to give you your whole four-hours worth! It's not like you can roll up a new character and play again next week. - I will fudge a roll that kills a player arbitrarily.
"You're walking down the road and get ambushed by five bandits, two jump out in front, two jump out in back, and one launches an arrow at whoever looks like they're in charge." He rolls a 20, confirms the crit with a 20, rolls max damage with a longbow for 33, dropping a 2nd level fighter from full HP to dead in one blow. (This is a true story, by the way.)20 auto-hits anyone
20 auto-confirms against anyone
33 damage would drop anyone in the party
You had full HP, a 14 con, d10 hit dice, full armor, and a shield, so there was nothing more you could have done to be prepared.
Goodbye, and thanks for (not actually) playing!That's just too arbitrary for me. As the GM, I caused a situation in which a PC died without any possible involvement of the players. That's not the players' fault, it's mine. Sure, I could "blame the dice" but maybe I should have used a crossbow (x2 crit), or not given the +3 STR bonus, or fired a warning shot over the party instead of into the party. If they players weren't involved in any way, then I won't let a die roll kill them.
I'd probably fudge the damage roll to be average rather than max damage, which would have put the character into negative HP, but not instantly dead. Or perhaps I would have ignored the critical, just dealing the character 11 out of his 19 hp in one blow.
Blackbot
|
In my group I will not fudge the dice except when I feel the module being unreasonable - which is not so much fudging as more "adjusting on the fly", a DC for example.
What may help with the "Please don't let me die by chance"-thing are Hero Points from the APG: Basically, when you are about to die you can spend 2 Hero Points to not die.
Although I have to say: When you are down to 2 HP and decide to stay and fight and not heal yourself or alike, you ARE begging to get killed. For example, I'd feel bad for my group's paladin when he gets critted from 30 to -15 HP by a random mook - but not for the sorcerer when he decides to go into melee with the graveknight when he is down to 14 HP.
| DMDark |
Thank you for all the advice. I do certainly fudge the DCs that I've decided or make up a small rule for a one time thing. This wa during a chase setting and the npc moving with the party continued to fail his perception check on the first card. A PC one card ahead continued to fail a climb check. The group asked if she could run back to show him the way which I allowed, I theb decided he gives her a leg up to give her a +2 circumstance bonus and she made it. I then added more things following down where people could disable traps or kill mobs to remove the check for other people. It worked out well. seamless and they had no idea I made it easy. I'm fine with that. But what I don't like about fudging dice rolls (as I do roll in view) is that removes the element I'm not in control of. I'm happy to give bonus' but I like the dice to be part of the story telling. Simply put memorable things happen because of the dice.
I will shepard the group a bit more and perhaps tweak the CR to reduce the odds of a repeat incident.
Ajaxis
|
Don't forget you can roleplay during an encounter. I very rarely fudge dice, but if the NCP's are rolling very well, and the players are in dire straights only due to die rolling, I'll roleplay a little bit. The dastard monologues instead of taking a full attack action, or the troll spends a round eating from the dead horse, ect.
| james maissen |
should I fudge or should I help them understand their unlimited options
Help them learn the game.
Should something go 'wrong' and there is a character death, take a second to make sure that everything was done right. Afterwards, diagnose the cause as 'bad luck', or 'bad luck coupled with lack of care', or simply 'lack of care'... or something along those lines.
The people that will say that they fudge dice rolls will mostly claim that this should be hidden from the players.. this seems dishonest to me, and obviates parts of the game.
I have a very laissez faire approach to DMing that imho helps immersion as it portrays the DM as the players' window to the world their characters are in. If that's the game that you want to teach them (of which I approve) then I would certainly not only not fudge dice rolls, but roll in the open whenever possible.
Can this mean that the BBEG drops in the surprise round? Yes. And does it mean that you do not control which combats are 'memorable' and 'why'? Also yes. But that is how it should be imho, as you are not a storyteller, but a gateway for your players into this fantasy world where they get to create and shape a story, not just be merely told one.
-James
| Eridan |
In my past i had a DM who fudges dice rolls. At the beginning of a fight the enemies hit everything, resist every spell and do much damage. At the end of the fight they hit nothing ..
I got the feeling that i can do everything but i can not loose. Some group members will go down but at the end we will win. I dont like this kind of feeling.
With the start of my DMing career i decided to roll all dice open in front of my players (except perception, sense motive etc.). Additionaly we use the Hero Point system to prevent PKs / TPKs due to very bad rolls.
Thalin
|
The trick is to actually not have those "*3" crit weapons around in the first few levels. Even fighters randomly shoot crossbows, not longbows. And keep damage bonuses in the d6+1-2 range; that makes a crit to kill nearly impossible.
Creatures that are small or shortsword wielders (two-weaponers) are great for low levels. Even in your scenario (2 hp, got critted) a d6+1 * 2 would have to be INSANELY lucky to actually kill them.... most people have 14 con, which would make it mathematically impossible; the 12 con character would need boxcars.
You'll notice Paizo sets up most of its modules this way for the first two levels; part of the reason it likes goblins so much :). It is playing "kiddy gloves", but what you DON'T want to happen is players know you're cheating for them... it really takes too much of the edge off. I actually roll everything in front of my players; and get the occasional cheers when a big baddy fails a critical saving throw :). And as stated above, if it looks too challenging, I lower their bonuses to hit and such on the spot; but never change the dice rolls.
| Goldenfrog |
I let the dice fall where they may.No fudging at all on rolls,hard to do anyway as I roll out in front of the players.
Now all that said,I don't need to fudge dice rolls. I can fudge whole encounters! The little minions suddenly kicking the parties arse and you realize you built the encounter too strong?
1-Those monsters who were at half hit points now only have a few left.
2-The monsters (fail) a moral check.
3-The enemy suddenly gets stupid in how they move across the board or start working badly as a team.
4-NPC's the party saved earlier show up and help.
A LOT of times just having the monsters do stupid things like go into a rage and run across the battle to pound the cleric opening itself up to 4 attacks of opportunity ect.. Monsters blocking out other monsters ect..
Suddenly a battle going badly can be turned around and won and to be honest the bad guys should play badly and less trained a lot of the time.
| Bwang |
I actually disagree a bit with Blueluck's details (mainly on 'rolling' encounters rather than plotting them into the run), but greatly approve of his laying out an 'formula' for resolving a very real part of the game. The piece he has done works best as a personal mantra or reminder than as a open house rule as he notes early on. Still, I'm going to print this out after a mild touch up, the BOLD text is perfect and one of those things I NEED to read just before running. Every time.
Thx B!
Edit: I was just looking at Goldenfrog's entry. My style is to trust the players to run the monsters, and they can get real nasty after a few levels. Worse is when I hand over the monster to a player to run and the player takes it a whole new way of fighting. I also allow players to design encounters, the most recent nasty one being the Roper with 3 levels of Rogue! I'm not saying they insist on HARD, but they do object to push overs.