Goblin Squad Member
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This is something that I have been musing over for some time, and I know that a couple of other folk here are interested in their use.
In a MMORPG, and PFO in particular, of course, how are poisons going to work? Blade venoms are obviously easier to model - you simply add an effect to the damage caused by the weapon, and magical poison effects will be similarly easy to cater for.
What about ingested poisons though? The staple of poisoners throughout the centuries and the very epitome of the vengeful witch. How are you going to model administering poison to a cup of ale, a tun of wine or even a village well?
Maybe a Sleight of Hand will be required to administer poison to a character's drink. That would make a great deal of sense. But does that character have to have actually bought a drink in-game? I know it is often fun to have an MMO character buy and consume booze, but given the number of characters an MMO tavern attracts, the number of drinks sold must be practically nil!
So maybe you can administer a poison (using Sleight of Hand) to any character in a tavern? You would need to get close, possibly interact in some way (such as talking to them). Would it operate, therefore, in a similar fashion to Pickpocket but require that the target and poisoner character be together in the tavern?
Then you have the option of mass poisoning. Tampering with the tavern supplies while they are still in storage or hitting the well. The well would be easy to poison (unless guarded night and day) but the tavern supply would require some breaking and entering.
I would suggest that the larger the target group, the smaller the effect. This is mainly for game balance, but it could be justified by the additional dilution when poisoning a large quantity of liquid. It is unlikely that the poisoner will be carrying a barrel of poison to the tavern storehouse.
What effect would poisons have? There is no point in poisoning someone if the effect is battlefield temporary. Combat blade venoms are great for stunning or slowing an opponent for a few rounds, but that is not the object of poisoning. Death is extreme, and would certainly be an option for high level poisons, but I would hope it be kept to rare occasions. More likely would be the loss of statistics, as Pathfinder PnP models. These would have to be a long-term loss (unless cured), however, for the poisoner to feel it was worthwhile. There is no point in poisoning someone in a tavern if the poison effect only lasts ten minutes.
Just a few thoughts here. What do the rest of you think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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For length, Maybe poisoned for a day, unless cured. Seems to not be too long, yet it still able to be curable shouldn't ruin a day of play for someone.
I Also wonder, skill wise, will we be able to craft our own poisons? I know I saw it mentioned somewere about buying poisons from the NPC assassins guilds, but I would really like to be able to craft and apply my own poisons. Making it my "signature" to my assassinations :D.
As for effects, I like stuff like "head aches" or "grogginess" and having casting speed reduced, or attack speed. Maybe having your stam regen slower. Other effects could be loss of strength.
This is just my quick 2 cents. Gotta get ready for work and will be on duty for 24hrs, but would also REALLY like to hear others opinions on poisons! Thanks Sadurian for being the one to make a Poisons thread :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very tricky. Selling poisoned food to a settlement to watch it's indirect effects on the common folk succumb might work? I guess upgrade: "Settlement official taster" might help solve that issue however?
I'd like for herbalists, potion-makers to have a wide range of plants to find and use for their potion/poison making properties. Possibly an evil-aligned option?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm planning on being a skilled herbalist so I am certainly thinking that herbalism might be a suitable crafting skill for poisons and other such drugs. Alchemy would be the other options, of course. Or maybe have the craft-Poison skill?
Possibly allow Alchemy and Herbalism to produce poisons up to a given effectiveness ('level', if you will) but a dedicated Poisons skill be required to take it further. After all, both Alchemy and Herbalism already give useful benefits so adding the making of poisons to them is increasing their usefulness considerably.
I would also suggest allowing antidotes to be produced using the same skills.
I don't know about the evil-aligned stricture. I know that RPGs have traditionally labelled any poison use as automatically evil, but why? Is it more evil to kill someone with poison than by stabbing them? Combat is all well and good, but what if your target is a 6'2" evil barbarian and you are a wizened old crone or pimply youth? You are simply fighting using your own weapons - he uses an axe and you use poison. Both are damaging and both are eminently survivable (the axe by having better combat skills, the poison by making a saving throw).
The Good Clerics regularly use spells that could easily be reproduced by poison and drug effects (Zone of Truth is sodium pentothal, Blindness/Deafness could easily be a mind-affecting poison and Command is just scary in its mind-controlling effect), so why is poison and drug use evil but clerical magic good?
I suppose the traditional antipathy against poison is the underhand nature of it. This is very much the (to use a US expression) 'jock' view - if you want to fight then come and do it toe-to-toe with fists. That's great if you are a combat monster, not so great if you make a living binding books. There's a reason poison was seen, and not in a derogatory sense, as a woman's weapon historically.
I would certainly suggest that Good characters think twice before using poison, but I would have no issues with any real restriction beyond that. Mass and indiscriminate poisoning is obviously more evil, the poisoning of a village well is hard to justify otherwise, but discretely poisoning a single character is surely Neutral at worst.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very tricky. Selling poisoned food to a settlement to watch it's indirect effects on the common folk succumb might work? I guess upgrade: "Settlement official taster" might help solve that issue however?
That's probably the best way to reproduce mass-poisoning. A reduction in the effectiveness of its invisible NPC workforce, with the reduction depending on the 'level' of the poison or drug used.
Maybe less scrupulous settlements could introduce mind-affecting drugs to their own water supply to increase the effectiveness of the workforce? Slipping them amphetamines to make them work longer and faster. Who cares about the peasantry having flashbacks and nightmares if the are more productive! So what if they burn out and become gibbering wrecks? - the temple to Urgathoa was finished on time and that's the main thing.
I see a ripe vein of conspiracy theory plots here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm hoping poisons are used quite a lot given the PvP/Settlement v Settlement nature of the game. Protect your water supply and protect your food reserves people!
Poison on weapons should be pretty straight forward (and amusing when screwed up), but poisoning an individuals food or drink should be a little more difficult (and thus have a harsher effect when achieved). A sleight of hand roll, or passing someone some food/drink, then several quaffs or bites to get the intended effect.
I'm not sure straight up death is a good idea, but stat loss or DoT or some other effect would be fine.
As for the nature of poison, old school AD&D had the use of such as evil, but I don't think that has been explicitly stated since then, so it is probably a hangover from that. There is also the perception that it is the 'weapon of choice of cowards', but honestly, I don't see it as any different to magic or shooting someone with a crossbow from several hundred feet away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know about the evil-aligned stricture. I know that RPGs have traditionally labelled any poison use as automatically evil, but why?
I think it falls into the category of "playing by the rules as an evil-doer ie cheating, means they've already won"? Hence for a "good-aligned" they always play by The Rules. If I'm playing a sport and ensure the oppositions' water-bottle is spiked with something... :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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That would certainly be valid for LG, but CG?
Maybe this is outside the point behind this thread, but maybe not. If the game software assumes poison use to be evil and tags PCs accordingly, it will have huge implications within the game community itself.
Personally, I would prefer the game software to remain neutral on poisons (and, indeed, the likes of necromancy and demonology), and for player settlements to make up their own minds on what they consider to be evil.
Also, if using poison tags you as 'Evil', then it rather subverts the whole idea of stealth and secrecy. If someone catches you using poison, then they can bring it to others' attention, but being a secret poisoner is rather difficult if you have a big finger over your head shouting "Look everyone, this character is Evil and uses poison!!".
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Goblin Squad Member
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[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_poisonous_plants]Natural Poisons (Plants)
As a bandit, and not an assassin, I would prefer to use poisons that cause paralysis or unconsciousness, rather than death. However, as a game mechanic I certainly expect that an evil alignment shift will still occur. I'm just not a killer, as an RP concept for my character, but a don't mind fading into evil from time-to-time.
As you can see from the list I provided, most plants that produce poisons also have a more benign purpose as well. I hope that natural poisons in PFO also have this attribute.
TES had one of the best alchemy systems I have seen in any PC game. If there is some way to get a system like that in PFO, it would be a highlighted feature of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, possibly different types of poison will be within reasonable use and others will be poisons that are the privilege of some evil deity?
The thing is poisons are an advantage that anyone would use - unless there's a small flipside to their use. I'd be more than happy to make them and sell them for others to use.
An interesting poison I wonder if it could cause more aggro from mob types on that player for a duration? Maybe the poison causes an odour that these mobs can't stand?!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of ultra-potent poisons that have an evil deity's input. Maybe made with ingredients that cannot be obtained without dabbling in the Dark Side (freely given demon ichor or the blood of a murdered good cleric or whatever).
Poisons that can be obtained from nature, however, should be neutral (not Neutral) in terms of good and evil. They simply are, rather than growing as the result of evil influences. Distilling them into a drug or poison is no more evil than refining and hammering metal ore into a sword.
I know that some MMOs have cookery as a skill, and you produce meals that have an in-game effect. I've mentioned before that I don't like this approach, but I would certainly be in the market for a similar simulation of non-magical drug and poison creation. Not treading too much on the toes of magical potions, but giving small bonuses to stats or skills. It would take time and application to draw up a list of possible drug and poisons and their ingredients, but if other games can do it for cookery then I can't see PFO struggling to do it for drugs and poisons. Not immediately, but as a future development than can be expanded at any time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i hope that, over time there will be lots of recepies for benigne and poisonous mxitures that use plants.
that way it could be implemented that the same plants have healing and harming effects.
;) and i hope it will take some time to get to the point where one can - apply a poison safely.
Which, of course, should be easier to achieve for assasins and alchemist types.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also support the addition of poisons, preferably craftable by PCs, into PFO. Yes I am an assassin, and yes I will be using them as an assassin uses every advantage available. That said, I think it would add another thing to craft, another market to sell, another thing for settlements and PCs to fear. It adds another dimension to the game as a whole. I love alchemy in the various Elder Scroll games and, even if not so indepth, would love to see some form of it brought to PFO.
Concerning its effects in-game, I agree with everything said above. Weapon poisons are straight forward, debuffs and/or damage (small but noticeable as we don't want it overpowered), and a form of "secret" poisonings, like food/water both on small scale (someone's order in a tavern) to settlement wide, like food stores or water well.
Maybe thins idea can be brought in with the addition of a "drug" system. Drugs can be put in as buffs and debuffs, maybe both in a few. Like the "work harder/faster but suffer delusions" drug. Think Steroids or Speed in PFO.
Anyway, great ideas and I support them. GW, please consider this system or something similar to these suggestions. Doesn't need to be for day 1 EE, but by launch would be great.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What do MMO characters drink? Potions!
Maybe assassins could apply an (invisible?) debuff that changed the effects of the next potion drunk to poison? Foiled by 'detect poison' and other spells, but provides a means for super-sneaky-but-martially-weak assassins to kill mighty warriors.
If restricted to assassination (masked/disguised assassin on a mission) and the act of poisoning has fair risk of exposure/discovery, it should not unbalance the game so much but could add great flavour.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did consider swapping out potions for poisons, but thought it probably wouldn't work. A character would probably know that the strange vial wasn't one of the Bull's Strength potions he bought from that herbalist, and an assassin would be unlikely to have the exact same colour and vial design to be able to effectively fool the target. Unless the target was a barbarian of course.... ;)
I also thought of making 'trojans' when making potions - selling a batch of six CLW where one is actually an Inflict. That, however, would very likely lead to a queue of angry and armoured gentlemen enquiring about the potion-seller's life insurance.
I suppose if the 'realism' of the scenario can be ignored, an assassin could Sleight of Hand a vial of poison or other drug into the target's inventory. That would be a great scenario for an assassin who had infiltrated a party intent on damaging the assassin's clients. Bit of a blow just before the big fight when the main tank suddenly drops to his knees suffering from the Rampaging Sponns.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A character would probably know that the strange vial wasn't one of the Bull's Strength potions he bought from that herbalist...
After a nasty experience with a DM in college (he was a chemistry major, interestingly), our group began engraving our potion bottles with symbols we could identify by touch, so we could know what we were taking when we had no leisure to look. All our symbols were ours alone, and we comforted ourselves that we'd taken a step to minimise the chances of tampering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I always make an assumption that characters label their potions with easy-to-recognise labels or physical tags. Especially for those who are complete potion-whores, having to read the smudged and spidery writing of the original creator's label is a little hard to swallow (hehe) in a badly-lit swirling melee situation.
My characters generally tie leather laces with different numbers of beads and 'charms' to the vials.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What do MMO characters drink? Potions!
I sure as hell hope there will be more to drink in the pubs then just potions. Specially considering the Epic Brewmaster pledge level.
Beverages that apply potioneffects though, drinkable in the Taverns only...
ok, you could argue that that would be the same as a classic potion, but i´d have to disagree on that
Maybe assassins could apply an (invisible?) debuff that changed the effects of the next potion drunk to poison? Foiled by 'detect poison' and other spells, but provides a means for super-sneaky-but-martially-weak assassins to kill mighty warriors.
This has potential for some interesting stories.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see some of these things for settlement warfare.
poisoning the water/food supply could cause various buildings in the settlement to slow down production or stop working for a few days. So now it takes 4 hours instead of 2 to craft those replacement swords.
I would like to be able to poison potions being made. So the potions either give a reduced effect or they have a downside. so a poisoned bull's strength potion gives you the str but decreases your dex.
perhaps there could be requirements for this. You would have to be at war with the settlement and you have to be an assassin to do it.
settlements could build defenses against these kinds of attacks so the effects are lessened or eliminated. So in order to hit a large well established settlement your assassin would have to be very very skilled.
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Goblin Squad Member
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settlements could build defenses against these kinds of attacks so the effects are lessened or eliminated. So in order to hit a large well established settlement your assassin would have to be very very skilled.
Your friendly (mainly) neighbourhood herbalist/alchemist witch at your service....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see some of these things for settlement warfare.
poisoning the water/food supply could cause various buildings in the settlement to slow down production or stop working for a few days. So now it takes 4 hours instead of 2 to craft those replacement swords.
I would like to be able to poison potions being made. So the potions either give a reduced effect or they have a downside. so a poisoned bull's strength potion gives you the str but decreases your dex.
perhaps there could be requirements for this. You would have to be at war with the settlement and you have to be an assassin to do it.
settlements could build defenses against these kinds of attacks so the effects are lessened or eliminated. So in order to hit a large well established settlement your assassin would have to be very very skilled.
Yes! Evilgasm!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@tigari
exactly. Settlement warfare is something that should take time. Overall its not something that should take a day or two, perhaps several weeks or months.
The effects will be greatly expanded when the game reaches the kingdom level.
So while LG settlements might not stoop to playing dirty, those evil folks.....
total warfare, use bandits to disrupt their supply lines, poison potions to cut off their consumables, kill their blacksmiths to slow down weapon production.
by the time the target knows they are under attack the first moves are already in place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like the concept of poisoning as a means of conflict out of combat.
I also think the idea of applying an effect to a player making their next action detrimental is a fantastic way to disrupt tradeskills among many other things. This would be very powerful for an assassin capable of remaining undetected or unsuspected in circumstances that allow them to wreak havoc.
Given the strictures assassins must operate under, or the risk of being detected as evil otherwise, it's really got a lot of curb appeal as facets of player interaction go.
I do think it will be important to have these debuffs not be visible to the affected player, barring a high wisdom and/or herbalism/poison making skill of their own with which to identify these effects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now there's an idea. A automatic 'Detect Poison' ability only used on yourself. Something natural (you don't need to buy or train it) but maybe getting a bonus to it with skills like Heal, Herbalism and Alchemy (and Poison, if they include it).
WIS-based, and with it you can recognise that you are under influence of a harmful drug without automatically having a little icon flash in the corner of the screen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now there's an idea. A automatic 'Detect Poison' ability only used on yourself. Something natural (you don't need to buy or train it) but maybe getting a bonus to it with skills like Heal, Herbalism and Alchemy (and Poison, if they include it).
WIS-based, and with it you can recognise that you are under influence of a harmful drug without automatically having a little icon flash in the corner of the screen.
I don't like anything that is automatic, unless it is a racial trait. If it can be a skill, it should be. Even an Elf, who is immune to poisons, should have to train to be able to detect poisons. Sure they should get racial bonuses for it, but it should not be automatic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elf Immune to poison???? What messed up realm are you living in there bludd? The bloody fairies have a negative racial to CON and you think they are immune to poisons??? Dwarves get the bonus vs poison, but arn 't immune, AND a CON bonus. There is NO core PC race that is immune to poison. Damn fairies are immune to magical sleep though....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elf Immune to poison???? What messed up realm are you living in there bludd? The bloody fairies have a negative racial to CON and you think they are immune to poisons??? Dwarves get the bonus vs poison, but arn 't immune, AND a CON bonus. There is NO core PC race that is immune to poison. Damn fairies are immune to magical sleep though....
Or was it disease, it has been over 30 years since I've played AD&D? I'm not that familiar yet with PFRPG either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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LOL. Bludd, your funny. But seriously, let me help ya out. Paizo.com/races This will help bring your old a$$ up-to-date with what us young(er) "Whipper-snappers" are using these days.
P.S. If your unfamiliar with the way hyperlinks (the blue text in my post) work, you just move the thing in your hand (called a mouse) over top of it and the click the left (index finger) mouse button. :-)
I don't know about the evil-aligned stricture. I know that RPGs have traditionally labelled any poison use as automatically evil, but why? Is it more evil to kill someone with poison than by stabbing them? Combat is all well and good, but what if your target is a 6'2" evil barbarian and you are a wizened old crone or pimply youth? You are simply fighting using your own weapons - he uses an axe and you use poison. Both are damaging and both are eminently survivable (the axe by having better combat skills, the poison by making a saving throw).
The Good Clerics regularly use spells that could easily be reproduced by poison and drug effects (Zone of Truth is sodium pentothal, Blindness/Deafness could easily be a mind-affecting poison and Command is just scary in its mind-controlling effect), so why is poison and drug use evil but clerical magic good?
I suppose the traditional antipathy against poison is the underhand nature of it. This is very much the (to use a US expression) 'jock' view - if you want to fight then come and do it toe-to-toe with fists. That's great if you are a combat monster, not so great if you make a living binding books. There's a reason poison was seen, and not in a derogatory sense, as a woman's weapon historically.
I would certainly suggest that Good characters think twice before using poison, but I would have no issues with any real restriction...
It's the premeditation that makes it evil, in my eyes. It's the difference in our justice system between murder, manslaughter and self defense. Intentionally poisoning someone can be construed as nothing but premeditated murder, and thus an evil act. Getting your axe, walking over to you archnemesis house and sticking it in his face is just as premeditated and just as evil. You can't poison someone by putting poison in their food/drink on accident. You may put it in the WRONG person's food or drink, or you may accidentally put the lethal poison instead of the knockout drug, but the point is that even then, you're doing something nefarious in the first place.
Not all clerical magic is good, BTW. If a GM is running a game the way they SHOULD, then controlling people, forcing them to tell the truth, or blinding/deafening them should be construed as wrong or evil acts. If a good aligned cleric does this kind of thing for selfish or nefarious reasons, it SHOULD be considered an evil act and the GM should take their powers from them until they Atone!
Poison use on a weapon, used in self defense is a grey area. It has negative connotations because even a scratch in a bar brawl leads to almost certain death in most cases(with normal people). I very well might agree that this is not an innately evil act, but even this is very close to it. Premeditated murder always is evil though. The method doesn't matter. If you can stick cyanide in someone's beer, you can figure out another way around it.
Personally, I'd prefer if PFO stuck to player's being able to use it on their weapons and in settlement warfare, i.e. use it to poison the NPC's that work for the settlement. Being able to poison and kill people in a way they can't defend themselves from is not fun gameplay for the people on the receiving end of it. I sincerely hope that stays out of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not kill - drug. There is a big difference. I've said I am not in favour of the old Gygax method of 'save or die'. What I would prefer is a reduction to stats or some other disability.
Yes, it is not fun being poisoned, but neither is it going to be fun be hit with all those swords, spells and other hindering effects. People can defend against poisons and drugs - that's what a saving throw is for. If you hit me with a sword then I 'save' with my AC, if I 'hit' you with poison then you save using Fortitude (or the PFO equivalent).
Not kill - drug. There is a big difference. I've said I am not in favour of the old Gygax method of 'save or die'. What I would prefer is a reduction to stats or some other disability.
Yes, it is not fun being poisoned, but neither is it going to be fun be hit with all those swords, spells and other hindering effects. People can defend against poisons and drugs - that's what a saving throw is for. If you hit me with a sword then I 'save' with my AC, if I 'hit' you with poison then you save using Fortitude (or the PFO equivalent).
Why are you drugging them, then? You're still doing it BEFORE they've done anything to you. It's still premeditated violence. You're either doing it so they are less able to defend themselves WHILE you kill them OR so that you can blackmail them into doing something or giving something to you.
I still say that it's evil to drug or poison someone under these kinds of circumstances. I hate to bring real life into it, but is it ok for someone in real life to drug someone's drink in order to steal from them or take advantage of them in other ways? Of course not. I can get more visceral to make my point, but I think it's been made. Using drugs OR poison, without that person's permission, can never be looked at as self defense - unless it's on a weapon that is being used in a situation that can already be called self defense. It has to be premeditated, i.e. you are injuring a person when they cannot defend themselves and likely without any real provocation... which is fine if you're an assassin or a bandit who wants to take out a strong target with little or no resistance. I'm not arguing that drugs shouldn't be in the game, just that it needs to be limited in some pretty major ways. A good poisoner can take out armies by themselves. That's not something I want in a game I play for fun.
Don't try to justify these kinds of actions. It's evil. In real life, it's one of the most evil acts there is. In a fantasy world where good and evil are tangible, perceivable things it is just as evil if not even more so. It's not about macho, jock attitudes. If someone is going to kill you and your family, and you stick a knife in their back when the chance presents itself you would never get in trouble with the law. If instead of stabbing them, you poisoned them when they asked for a cup of coffee I still don't think you'd get in trouble. Poisoning someone because, in a room full of big brawny people with pointy and sharp objects, that one looked at you funny? Or said something mean to you? Or because you want his stuff? Or because someone ELSE wants his stuff?
How can you deny that's evil? I don't see any way in which, in a MMO gaming context, you can apply the drugs or poisons you're asking for and have it be anything other than awfully, abysmally, evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why are you drugging them, then? You're still doing it BEFORE they've done anything to you.
Says who exactly? What if it is the guy that just robbed me on the road, or is the enemy of my settlement?
You assume far too much in assuming I am promoting random poisoning for shits and giggles.
I hate to bring real life into it, but is it ok for someone in real life to drug someone's drink in order to steal from them or take advantage of them in other ways?
Best not try to bring real life into things in a fantasy game, it never ends well. Unless you also think that it is acceptable to go killing members of other sentient races and stealing their stuff.
Don't try to justify these kinds of actions. It's evil.
When someone says "don't try to justify X", I automatically think they can't debate the case. It's the same as saying, "I'm right and you're wrong and I can't hear your opposing argument, lahlahlah."
I assume that you have no problem with casting spells at people, hitting them with blades, or summoning animals to rip them to shreds? Did that goblin actually do anything to you? Has it come up and attacked you? Or, more likely, have you sought it out to slaughter it and its friends because goblins have been bad in the past?
Premeditated genocide because of your species/racial prejudices? And you are arguing that drugging an enemy in a bar to reduce his effectiveness is one of the most evil things you can do?
Why are you drugging them, then? You're still doing it BEFORE they've done anything to you.Says who exactly? What if it is the guy that just robbed me on the road, or is the enemy of my settlement?
You assume far too much in assuming I am promoting random poisoning for s@@#s and giggles.
I hate to bring real life into it, but is it ok for someone in real life to drug someone's drink in order to steal from them or take advantage of them in other ways?Best not try to bring real life into things in a fantasy game, it never ends well. Unless you also think that it is acceptable to go killing members of other sentient races and stealing their stuff.
Don't try to justify these kinds of actions. It's evil.When someone says "don't try to justify X", I automatically think they can't debate the case. It's the same as saying, "I'm right and you're wrong and I can't hear your opposing argument, lahlahlah."
I assume that you have no problem with casting spells at people, hitting them with blades, or summoning animals to rip them to shreds? Did that goblin actually do anything to you? Has it come up and attacked you? Or, more likely, have you sought it out to slaughter it and its friends because goblins have been bad in the past?
Premeditated genocide because of your species/racial prejudices? And you are arguing that drugging an enemy in a bar to reduce his effectiveness is one of the most evil things you can do?
You are making assumptions, now, sir. Goblins and most other of the 'monstrous humanoid' races are treated in the Pathfinder world the same way we treat rabid animals in the real world. They're a horrible persistent threat, and will kill humans, elves, dwarves, etc. on site. They slaughter villages, steal children, and are regularly the servants of the true powers of evil. It has nothing to do with 'prejudices' in Golarion. They are evil. Really, truly evil. In Golarion, there is no such thing as political correctness. Good and evil are real, and has palpable and physical manifestations. While there may be some room for grey areas, there is MUCH more black and white.
Whether or not hitting people(whatever race they are), casting spells at them, etc. is good or evil can be pretty easily summed up in Golarion. Where you defending yourself(or someone else) from an attack? If yes, then the powers of good are ok with it. If no, were they evil and doing evil stuff? If yes to that part, then the powers of good are again ok with it. Being evil doesn't give good guys justification to just walk up and start killing.
You are using circular arguments, and completely ignoring the main thrust of my points in order to attempt to 'win' the argument. You are pointing out racial differences that are inherently part of the backstory of the Pathfinder world, and using it as a justification for doing things on a personal basis. There is all the difference in Golarion between adventuring parties hunting down goblin, orc, kobold, ogre, etc., tribes and eliminating them and someone poisoning or drugging an individual in a bar as you were suggesting should be done. The monstrous humanoids present an imminent and real threat in Golarion, and even then in most adventures I've played in, these creatures have to do something specific to be hunted down. This, even though with them it's not a matter of IF they will attack civilized areas and settlements, but merely when. Read the creatures descriptions. Read the background of the world.
Drugging or poisoning someone who just robbed you on the road is a huge departure from what you've discussed in the past. I even left that open... I said that in cases of self defense I think that it's... less wrong. I am, however, assuming that you've played an MMO before. Things like this cannot be put in without thinking about the worse case scenario for it's use - because that IS how it will be used. Putting in the ability to drug people in taverns, bars and restaurants will have one of two outcomes. The first is that for a while, there will be tons of people getting poisoned and drugged in these places... mostly new players to the game who don't know enough to avoid it. The second is that no one will go to these types of places after a while, unless it's required somehow, because they don't want to get drugged/poisoned!
Let poison/drug use be a tactical/strategic part of settlement warfare. Let it be used in combat by rogues and assassins. Anything else is just going to end up being not fun for the majority of players, or EVERYONE who can will learn to do it. Players will go to ridiculous lengths for small advantages in MMO's. What you're suggesting wouldn't be a small advantage, and if it's not considered 'evil' then everyone will be doing it - or at least all the power gamers/rules lawyers. I'd just as soon not have that in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't want poison to be used on your character. Fair enough.
Will you advance me the same courtesy when I ask you not to use other weapons or spells on my character?
No. I doubt you would.
Poison is simply another weapon. One that you don't like, but one that is a perfectly legitimate weapon used by alchemists, herbalists and poisoners.
You don't want poison to be used on your character. Fair enough.
Will you advance me the same courtesy when I ask you not to use other weapons or spells on my character?
No. I doubt you would.
Poison is simply another weapon. One that you don't like, but one that is a perfectly legitimate weapon used by alchemists, herbalists and poisoners.
Hilarious. Again, you have departed from the point of the discussion. In your opening post, you discussed how you didn't understand why people thought of poison and drug use as evil. How it was because of the macho jock attitude that prevails in the U.S. because it wasn't 'fighting fair'. I've been refuting those points. Drug use and poison use have always been considered evil in D&D and in Pathfinder. At least, in the way you've described.
For the person who accused me of not being able to come up with a cogent argument, you are using the precisely same tactic to the hundredth power. You aren't even RESPONDING to what I've said. You're just lumping me into a corner that conveniently allows you to ignore what I've said without responding to any of it, or choosing tiny sections that you feel morally empowered to refute while ignoring the majority of it.
I don't have a problem with poison being in the game. Poison has always been a part of D&D and Pathfinder. It should be in PFO. My issue with you're argument is that it isn't evil, and therefore there should be no consequences to it's use and with some of the ways you have suggested it be employed.
Alchemists do just fine. Herbalists? There's no such thing. Poisoners? That would be rogues and assassins. Again, they have no problem taking care of themselves.
Poison is NOT just another weapon. It's an evil weapon, for all the reasons I've mentioned in the past and won't go over again. Using it is, for the most part, an evil act. It always has been, in the real world and in every D&D/Pathfinder world that I know of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Again, you have departed from the point of the discussion.
Actually no. If you look back, you'll see that my position is that poison is just another weapon. Exactly the same point in the post you quoted.
How it was because of the macho jock attitude that prevails in the U.S. because it wasn't 'fighting fair'.
I'm pretty sure I haven't been limiting my arguments to the US. I used the word 'jock' because I though it would be understood by the majority of readers as meaning an attitude where the only way to settle disputes is a stand-up fight. Sorry if that was unclear to you.
Drug use and poison use have always been considered evil in D&D and in Pathfinder.
That is not an argument for why, that is just a statement that 'we do it that way because we've always done it that way'. If that sort of attitude prevailed, we would still have good clerics raising undead (1st Edition AD&D allowed Good clerics to Animate Dead with no penalty).
You aren't even RESPONDING to what I've said.
To be frank, I didn't respond directly to what you said because it was all over the place. You were trying to build an argument based on what happened in the real world, but then carried the argument into game-only concepts, thus neatly countering your own point. I could have brought it up at the time, but decided that it was better to let it go past unremarked.
I don't have a problem with poison being in the game. Poison has always been a part of D&D and Pathfinder. It should be in PFO. My issue with you're argument is that it isn't evil, and therefore there should be no consequences to it's use and with some of the ways you have suggested it be employed.
Not 'no consequence'. Not some software-triggered automatic label. I would expect there to be as much consequence for a poisoner drugging a PC in a tavern as there would be for a warrior stabbing one in the back.
Alchemists do just fine. Herbalists? There's no such thing. Poisoners? That would be rogues and assassins. Again, they have no problem taking care of themselves.
That is a very strange paragraph. You say that there is no such thing as a herbalist. Of course there is. A herbalist is someone who deals with herbs and preparations made from them. A poisoner is someone who uses poison - it doesn't matter if they are a rogue, mage or knight. An assassin is someone who assassinates - again, it could be anyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know that I don't want poison used on my character. So, Please do not poison me.
Is there some deep seeded reason for this? Do you expect that the damage or disabling effects if poison will be dramatically different than the critical strikes or damage from conventional weapons? Do you have he same feelings about a Cleric's Cause Disease spell?