Paizo,
I was reading up on alchemist discoveries (helping my son w/his character) when I noticed something odd. It states "Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Intelligence modifier."
Now here's the question; does someone who takes a direct hit NOT get a save for half damage? Is it just those caught in the splash zone?
It doesn't actually reference any saves for a direct hit, so I need some clarification. Thanks.
DogBone
Correct the person hit by the alchemist bomb doesnt get a save, his touch ac was hit, no chance to dodge the attack. Just like you dont get a reflex save if someone hits you with a sword.
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Correct the person hit by the alchemist bomb doesnt get a save, his touch ac was hit, no chance to dodge the attack. Just like you dont get a reflex save if someone hits you with a sword.
Correct, but for the wrong reason. He doesn't get a save for half because that rule only applies to splash damage and damage from a direct hit from a bomb is not splash damage.
Correct the person hit by the alchemist bomb doesnt get a save, his touch ac was hit, no chance to dodge the attack. Just like you dont get a reflex save if someone hits you with a sword.Correct, but for the wrong reason. He doesn't get a save for half because that rule only applies to splash damage and damage from a direct hit from a bomb is not splash damage.
I was just trying to clarify that you are hitting with a weapon. An alchemist bomb is a spash weapon. When you hit a target with a splash weapon you have hit the actual target. Like all weapon attacks, you dont save against that hit. Splash weapons just have the added effect of splash damage which offers a save.
Correct the person hit by the alchemist bomb doesnt get a save, his touch ac was hit, no chance to dodge the attack. Just like you dont get a reflex save if someone hits you with a sword.
Thanks guys, that's what I thought.
DogBone
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I was just trying to clarify that you are hitting with a weapon. An alchemist bomb is a spash weapon. When you hit a target with a splash weapon you have hit the actual target. Like all weapon attacks, you dont save against that hit. Splash weapons just have the added effect of splash damage which offers a save.Correct the person hit by the alchemist bomb doesnt get a save, his touch ac was hit, no chance to dodge the attack. Just like you dont get a reflex save if someone hits you with a sword.Correct, but for the wrong reason. He doesn't get a save for half because that rule only applies to splash damage and damage from a direct hit from a bomb is not splash damage.
The problem is that while many effects that require you to actually hit the target do not give a save, there are some that do. If I hit you with Touch of Fatigue you can still negate the effects with a successful Fortitude save even though I had to hit you with a Touch attack. In fact, if I hit you directly with a Tanglefoot Bomb you still get a save to avoid its effects, albeit, not the damage.
The problem is that while many effects that require you to actually hit the target do not give a save, there are some that do. If I hit you with Touch of Fatigue you can still negate the effects with a successful Fortitude save even though I had to hit you with a Touch attack. In fact, if I hit you directly with a Tanglefoot Bomb you still get a save to avoid its effects, albeit, not the damage.I was just trying to clarify that you are hitting with a weapon. An alchemist bomb is a spash weapon. When you hit a target with a splash weapon you have hit the actual target. Like all weapon attacks, you dont save against that hit. Splash weapons just have the added effect of splash damage which offers a save.Correct the person hit by the alchemist bomb doesnt get a save, his touch ac was hit, no chance to dodge the attack. Just like you dont get a reflex save if someone hits you with a sword.Correct, but for the wrong reason. He doesn't get a save for half because that rule only applies to splash damage and damage from a direct hit from a bomb is not splash damage.
Touch of fatigue is not a weapon, its a spell, spells have their own rules.
Tanglefoot bomb has an added effect beyond the damage that you save against. That added effect has its own rules beyond that of the splash weapon attack. The damage still happens from the weapon still happens regardless of the save.
Personally, I feel the best answer is, "The direct target doesn't get a saving throw because the description of the bomb ability does not allow for one." The reasoning behind it is mostly irrelevant.
Xaratherus has the best answer - there is no general rule on touch hits and saving throws, nor should there be. Some effects demand a save, others do not.
Tanglefoot bomb has an added effect beyond the damage that you save against. That added effect has its own rules beyond that of the splash weapon attack. The damage still happens from the weapon still happens regardless of the save.
Just FYI - Tanglefoot Bags don't deal damage... ahh, you said bombs. Nevermind - some crossed wires.
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Touch of fatigue is not a weapon, its a spell, spells have their own rules.
Tanglefoot bomb has an added effect beyond the damage that you save against. That added effect has its own rules beyond that of the splash weapon attack. The damage still happens from the weapon still happens regardless of the save.
None of which I am disagreeing with. I am simply clarifying that just because you have to roll to hit someone with an attack does not garauntee there is no saving throw for the attack.
In this case, the saving throw the OP asked about only applies to a bomb's splash damage so the rules for the bomb's direct damage are the only thing that matter, which in this case means there is no saving throw as the bomb's direct damage makes no reference to one, only the rules for its splash damage do.
The DC of any saving throw called for by a discovery is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
And no spell resistance.
Yeah, the reason bombs are so crazy useful is they're in this perfect little sweet spot: a) they target Touch AC, so they hardly ever miss; b) they deal energy damage, so DR is never a problem; c) they are a supernatural ability, so SR is never a problem; d) it's easy (with discoveries) to change the damage to something like Force so energy resistance/immunity is rarely a problem; e) they do splash damage, so even if you miss, you might still do damage to the target (depending on where the bomb actually lands)!