Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think that Badges will be a currency at all. I think they're just prerequisites.
XP will be a currency. Want a rank in the Basket Weaving skill? Spend 100 XP (and some gold, if the Settlement is charging you for training).
Badges will be earned by doing things. The Badge called Beginning Sword Swinger might be achieved by swinging a sword at an enemy 100 times. After I take that 100th swing, I think the game will just say "You've earned the Beginning Sword Swinger badge."
...this is exactly how I've interpreted the system too!
(except I think the Beginning Sword Swinger would be more about 10 hits than 100 swings, and the Experienced Cleaver would be more about killing 5 enemies with cleave than hitting 250. Focused tasks rather than long grinds).
You may be right about focused tasks rather than grinding.
I think I also included one too many categories of prerequisites. A Feat might require a certain class level, some number of XP, and certain earlier Feats, but I don't recall seeing Deeds/Badges mentioned by GW as prerequisites for Feats. So while Cleave might be required before you can train Great Cleave, the Experienced Cleaver Deed might not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A lot of the ways that performing deeds are being described just rubs me the wrong way. There is too much focus on using the term, I think. That may be my issue. It doesn't match with how I expect others to normally speak.
"Have you mastered archery?" Is how I expect someone to ask me a question.
"Have you performed the deeds to master archery?" Sounds weird to me. Who speaks like that? It gets worse if deeds may be as contrived as 'Kill X Enemies with a Ranged Weapon'. Mastery of archery is usually displayed in contests, not in battle. In battle, it only matters if you hit them well enough to bring them down. A master hits their exact target - be it a bullseye on a target dummy, or the eye of an enemy.
It feels as if we are trying to make an abstraction into a concrete element. We're taking a Meta event and trying to force it to be meaningful in game.
If you're expecting the majority of players to speak in character the majority of the time in an MMO, I'm afraid you may be in for a rude shock when the game goes live. There will be people, and lots of them, who play PFO as a video game, not as a remote-access tabletop RPG. We seem to have a pretty high concentration of roleplayers on the forum right now, but the video gamers will find the game when it goes live. Given Ryan's previous association with EVE, I suspect that Goons and TEST will form companies and alliances in PFO, in OE if not EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think that Badges will be a currency at all. I think they're just prerequisites.
XP will be a currency. Want a rank in the Basket Weaving skill? Spend 100 XP (and some gold, if the Settlement is charging you for training).
Badges will be earned by doing things. The Badge called Beginning Sword Swinger might be achieved by swinging a sword at an enemy 100 times. After I take that 100th swing, I think the game will just say "You've earned the Beginning Sword Swinger badge."
...this is exactly how I've interpreted the system too!
(except I think the Beginning Sword Swinger would be more about 10 hits than 100 swings, and the Experienced Cleaver would be more about killing 5 enemies with cleave than hitting 250. Focused tasks rather than long grinds).
You may be right about focused tasks rather than grinding.
I think I also included one too many categories of prerequisites. A Feat might require a certain class level, some number of XP, and certain earlier Feats, but I don't recall seeing Deeds/Badges mentioned by GW as prerequisites for Feats. So while Cleave might be required before you can train Great Cleave, the Experienced Cleaver Deed might not.
See? We have a smart dude referring to 'class level' when we're not going to have either. The point of the FAQ blog is to clear up stuff for new people. Face it, how many past blogs are they going to read? Have you looked at the list lately? 'Onerous Task' is a term that comes to mind. We're in the development, crowdforging stage. But we do know there are some core mechanics that even if details about them change, they will be present. How about a blog that names and defines key terms? This wouldn't replace Nihimons' important blog post-it would be a short cut for newbies and a refresher for the rest of us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just name them uniquely and have done ?
Call them collectively 'Prerequisites' like in the Pen and Paper PFRPG.Why call them levels, badges, titles or deeds when they are going to be known by their name anyway.
Capstone Ranger: Got 'Marksman' yet ?
New Ranger: You mean 'Marksman Level Deed of Valor' ?
Capstone Ranger: ...
New Ranger: Yeah I got Marksman.
Capstone Ranger: Okay, go talk to the trainer about 'Deadeye'.
New Ranger: You mean 'Deadeye Merit Badge of Title' ?
Capstone Ranger: ...
New Ranger: <heads to the trainer>
+1 to this whole post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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+1 to this whole post.Just name them uniquely and have done ?
Call them collectively 'Prerequisites' like in the Pen and Paper PFRPG.Why call them levels, badges, titles or deeds when they are going to be known by their name anyway.
Capstone Ranger: Got 'Marksman' yet ?
New Ranger: You mean 'Marksman Level Deed of Valor' ?
Capstone Ranger: ...
New Ranger: Yeah I got Marksman.
Capstone Ranger: Okay, go talk to the trainer about 'Deadeye'.
New Ranger: You mean 'Deadeye Merit Badge of Title' ?
Capstone Ranger: ...
New Ranger: <heads to the trainer>
Another +1 from me.
Also, I think Pinosaur may have the scariest avatar I've seen yet. Is that a kobold? Kobolds with walkie talkies to call in reinforcements (like dragon air support) would be serious bad juju.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We have a smart dude referring to 'class level' when we're not going to have either.We're going to have something that is reasonably close to "class level". The devs have repeatedly talked about "Fighter 3" being a prerequisite for "Fighter 4".
I thought those were just examples so they could describe what they're thinking-not decided upon terms. Could be wrong. One of the things I see most in new people to the forums is referencing other, themepark MMOs, even if they read the Kickstarter descriptions. So, "is there going to be a non-pvp server?" People are referring to 'Raids' in this very posting, when of course there isn't going to be a PFO-generated raid gear hamster wheel for endgame content. Fighter 3 sounds like a 'Rank' to me by the way. Heck, call 'em levels. Now I really think they need a blog with some key defined terms. Would a relatively short blog too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought those were just examples so they could describe what they're thinking-not decided upon terms. Could be wrong. One of the things I see most in new people to the forums is referencing other, themepark MMOs, even if they read the Kickstarter descriptions. So, "is there going to be a non-pvp server?" People are referring to 'Raids' in this very posting, when of course there isn't going to be a PFO-generated raid gear hamster wheel for endgame content. Fighter 3 sounds like a 'Rank' to me by the way. Heck, call 'em levels. Now I really think they need a blog with some key defined terms. Would a relatively short blog too.We have a smart dude referring to 'class level' when we're not going to have either.We're going to have something that is reasonably close to "class level". The devs have repeatedly talked about "Fighter 3" being a prerequisite for "Fighter 4".
One of these days, I'm sure we'll have a PFO wiki, with an extensive definitions section. Till then, we all get confused occasionally (even GW - venture/chartered company, etc.).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, just reread the old blog that introduced Merit Badges. Thresholds of xp,skill training, abilities and feats (prerequisites)
that measure your progression and achievements within a certain archetype would sum it up. By the end of the blog they were referring to them as levels. You get an associated ability and there are 20 of them. Must note the blog itself implied that 'class' and 'level' would confuse people within the context of most MMOs and TT Pathfinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of these days, I'm sure we'll have a PFO wiki...It would be foolish to try to map the course of a river when glacial melt is still flooding the land and cutting new channels. Once flood waters have cleared and we can see clearly, we'll begin to document what we see.
I see, Master, I see...Hey! Is this a ninja pitch for The Seventh Veil?
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Goblin Squad Member
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... the terminology should... flow well in normal OOC speak.
I think this is actually very important.
If there are "Class Action Points" that allow a class to use their special features, I think great care should be taken in naming them so that referring to them in normal speech sounds natural and would make sense in-character.
For example, in Vanguard, a Paladin has Virtue Points. This name is very "gamey". Compare "I'm out of Virtue Points" to "I'm out of Divine Favors".
Is this a ninja pitch for The Seventh Veil?
Hopefully, it's not too ninja... But absolutely, when I said "we", I meant "The Seventh Veil".
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of these days, I'm sure we'll have a PFO wiki...It would be foolish to try to map the course of a river when glacial melt is still flooding the land and cutting new channels. Once flood waters have cleared and we can see clearly, we'll begin to document what we see.
Yes, that was meant in the sense of "someday, way down the road, I'll bet somebody else will do this", rather than "we should start now".
Just name them uniquely and have done ?
Call them collectively 'Prerequisites' like in the Pen and Paper PFRPG.
Why call them levels, badges, titles or deeds when they are going to be known by their name anyway.
Capstone Ranger: Got 'Marksman' yet ?
New Ranger: You mean 'Marksman Level Deed of Valor' ?
Capstone Ranger: ...
New Ranger: Yeah I got Marksman.
Capstone Ranger: Okay, go talk to the trainer about 'Deadeye'.
New Ranger: You mean 'Deadeye Merit Badge of Title' ?
Individually, they can and will be referenced by their specific names, your absurd scenario aside. You may be aware of the tabletop game which has a bunch of Feats which people don't feel compelled to insert the phrase "Feat" after the name of Feats they refer to.
Within the game, there may well be panels listing Deeds that you have/ Deeds that you need, and it's reasonable that the panel (or tab, etc) would need to be labelled. "Pre-Requisites" likely will be a term used in-game (or out), but that ALSO covers Stat Scores, Class Role Ranks, Skill Ranks, and so on. The point is distinguish these requirements derived from accomplishing certain action, from the rest of those... mostly when referring to this category a whole, or in the plural, NOT referring to SPECIFIC singular Deeds when the general category doesn't need to be specified. When the game informs you that you just gained a specific Deed, it probably doesn't need to mention the phrase "Deed", although I would expect if there is some visual emblem associated to Deeds that would also appear to make clear the game mechanic being referenced.
The whole point of this exercise is that the term "Merit Badge" came up because it was necessary to have SOME term to refer to this specific class of Pre-Requisite when discussing game mechanics in the Blog (and GW Dev Posts, and discussions here on the board and internal to GW), it just transpired that "Merit Badge" wasn't really written in stone, and a better term could replace it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Quandary that we need a general term to refer to the class of prerequisites that require something to be done in-game.
Deeds, Achievements, Accomplishments - all of those get the point across. I've yet to find any compelling argument that any one is better than the others. I find it mildly compelling that the ambiguity of Deed makes it less attractive - but not enough to really care that much.
What is the ambiguity?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is in how Deed is being used. In fact, that is exactly my problem. Not in the word deed, but in how it is being used.
You do not acquire deeds. You perform deeds. Deeds are not a physical thing to be held (unless you are talking property). They are not medals or certificates. They are actions you have taken.
You may have a list, such as this...
Deeds Performed:
* Killed 30 enemies with a sword
* Defeated an Ogre
* Survived 'Massive Damage' 5 times
* Crafted 100 Stone Blocks
* Crafted 250 Stone Blocks
But this looks terrible to me...
Deed of Stonework 100
Deed of Stonework 250
Deed of Ogre Slaying
Perhaps I am just being a grammar nazi, but it is very jarring to imagine 'holding an accomplishment' as one would a medal.
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But nothing is saying these are physical things you hold.
That is just the association for the previous term, Merit Badge.
And exactly why I don't think the term Merit Badge should be used, it's a pointless intermediary that could only encourage naming schemes along the lines of your 2nd list.
Deeds ARE actions you performed, regardless of term used, what is being referred to by this mechanic is actions you performed.
(some Deeds might be "passive" actions, e.g. "Survive XYZ", but I don't think that breaks the paradigm)
AFAIK, there is zero evidence that Deed (or whatever the title) is/would be used more like the 2nd list than the 1st.
So I don't see how that's a concrete problem of "how it is being used".
We don't have any names of Deeds/whateverthesewillbecalled.
That said, sure, I support an approach to Deed naming more like the 1st list than the 2nd.
I'm still not sure what Nihimon was referring to, I don't think your issue is it, because that's not really 'ambiguity'...???
Oh, OK, gotcha. But as long as PFO doesn't try to use the same term for different mechanics (i.e. for land/building ownership or control) then using the term in context of the game should be pretty obvious. Simply put, they shouldn't ever use "deed" to describe a title to land/building if they are using it for some other game mechanic, but I don't think that's a big limitation, there are plenty of other terms they could use for that concept that are just as "natural" as "deed".
I'm not really sure why such an intermediary 'proof' of ownership is really needed, land/buildings/etc could easily be traded/sold without referencing a "deed"/"title"/"charter" at all. I guess private buildings within a settlement might be chartered by that settlement if they are still subject to it's laws/rule/etc (although you wouldn't ever really sell/trade the charter in that case, just the building itself and the charter goes along with it), but otherwise fully independent control of land doesn't need any particular title... In fact, that's kind of the point, this is the wild frontier and independent settlements with their OWN laws establish themselves by their own might, NOT recourse to an abstract neutral legal regime of land ownership (which land title/deed in the real world operates under).
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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DCUO has a system they call "acheivements"; each achievement grants points which can be used to buy weapon skils or small stat boosts, but there's a sharp plateau after you know all the skills for the weapon that you use.
People use "have the achievement" as a cogent phrase all the time; I agree that "have the deed(action)" is rough. I want to use "medals" for my own in-character organization's system of recognition, or I would suggest that. Instead I would propose that "merit", "badge", "accolade", "proof" (as in 'proof of the way of the blade' or 'second proof of abjuration', in addition to the industry-(and medium-)standard "acheivement".
I'll also ask that we get more options; don't stop until you've proposed at least two ideas that you think are obviously absolutely bad (not just worse than a prior idea).
If people impose non-existent object-possessing paradigms and can't discuss things in terms of "DO/ACCOMPLISH the Deed",
the solution is clear: go full grammar nazi on them. ;-)
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bad idea 2,014: "dead cat"
but that could be a cool animation, to have angelic girl scouts descend from the skies to give you a badge every time you earn one...
bad idea 2,015: girl scout cookie
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Goblin Squad Member
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Merit Badge was put out there by Ryan so Goblinworks had something to call the 'levels' of Pathfinder Online character progression-so it could be discussed. It never referred to something a character would wear, it was the placeholder name of these progression levels. I presume PC organizations will create their own honorifics and give them out.@ DeciusBrutus: My two bad ideas instead of Deeds-Cognomen and Sobriquet. An Elemental Wizard build would include the Sobriquet of Goblin Roasting. Gorums' Cognomen would add Divine Favor, Bulls Strength, Divine Power and Righteous Might to the spells he could add to his holy symbol.
I would not characterize Deeds/Merit Badges as "Levels", they are one type of Pre-Req for Feats. Levels could be measured by Skill Training or by Class Role Ranks (another type of Pre-Req, albeit a 'shorthand' for other Pre-Reqs you already attained). While as you go up in 'Level', you should have more and more Deeds/Merit Badges, they are functioning on a slightly different plane and level of granularity, many Deeds/Badges you gain WON'T correlate to any actual increases in "Level".
But the point stands that this was just a mechanic meant to mediate other mechanics, with no fundamental intention that you conceive of it as an object your character collects, fundamentally it corresponds to actions you have taken, that's it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see deeds as ways to prove to yourself that you have trained your skill correctly. In effect they lock in the training you did so that you have a solid base for the next level of training. It's like training in a martial arts form. You can practice all you want, but until you do the deed (do the form) for others to see it has not been proven that you have trained successfully. Especially if these are dirty deeds done dirt cheep.
I have a black deed in kung fu.
