|
I never thought they could. I always have though flurry was exclusive from rapid/multishot. Much like how vital strike is its own special attack action and is therefore exclusive from other granted attacks (charge, AoOs).Its not clear either way. I think using full-attack to flurry excludes using it for rapid/many shot.So you're saying that a monk can no longer rapid shot and flurry with shurikens? Moreover that the language specifically stating the zen archer restriction is superfluous, though it is not worded as a reminder but as special rules?
-James
I disagree with your interpretation that Flurry of Blows is a special attack and not a standard full attack because it specifically states your are making an extra attack as if using two weapon fighting.
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2
Double WeaponsYou can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapons.
Thrown WeaponsThe same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapons when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
With two weapon fighting you are making a full attack and can take one additional attack with the off hand, and it specifically states that you can do so with shuriken. Rapid shot only requires a full attack, and you would be able to use both if you had a shuriken in each hand. There fore I think you can use flurry and rapid shot in the same round.
Zen Archers cannot because they are expressly forbidden.
It is "as if" using Two Weapon Fighting because you are not actually Two Weapon Fighting, you are Flurry of Blows-ing.
Yes, you can TWF with shuriken. Yes, you can rapid shot with shuriken. Yes you can even TWF and rapid shot together, as they both require "full-attack actions" to work.
Imbicatus is correct.
Sohei are stupid and broke; and Paizo has seen fit to not fix them in the APG second-printing. (And the CRB 6th printing added text to core monk noting they needn't use different weapons during a flurry.)
You would be much more likely to convince me to explain some reasoning as to why he is correct. I understand he thinks he is correct and that you do too. I am more interested in the why, as I am open to changing my opinion, but the way I understand it currently, I disagree that he is correct.
I have. All I find is people arguing this same thing, and no official answer one way or the other. Feel free to link me to a definitive one if you have it.
Just saying "I'm right" or "It works like that" without any reasoning will not advance the conversation at all. Either provide reasoning, or links to other people who have.
|
|
My reasoning is that I don't think that wording of Flurry of Blows being used as full round attack makes it a specific other type of attack and not subject to being modified by feats that let you do additional actions when full attacking.
By stating that you flurry as a full round attack, it's just defining it as a full round attack and not a standard action.
I think it's there to state you cant flurry as a standard action. The sentences that you gain an extra attack as if using two weapon fighting is there to disallow the flurry/twf combo, and natural attacks are expressly forbidden. Nothing else is. Maybe the Shuriken/Rapid Shot combo was an oversight, but it is not mentioned in the definition of flurry of blows, and is mentioned in the definition of TWF.
When they released the Zen Archer they expressly forbade Rapid Shot and Manyshot with flurry. No where else.
I can see how the language of flurry of blows can support your argument, but it's vague and open to interpretation. This should be a FAQ candidate.
I'm thinking that because flurry says, " Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action." You are reading it as saying: When taking a full-attack action, a monk can choose to make a flurry of blows.
This puts it in line with rapid/many shot and allow a full-attack action to permit flurry, rapid and many to all go off at once(except for the zen archer, screw that guy). I am not against this reading per-say, other than I think using it with a bow is stronger than intended. (Evidenced by the massive favoritism toward sohei for archer builds).
On the other hand, forgetting to block the sohei from being able to rapid/many shot flurry with a bow like the zen archer is probably more likely and intended.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem allowing monk's to flurry/rapid shot with shuriken in a home game. I would not allow sohei's to flurry/rapid/many shot based on the zen archer limitations. I think that is what was intended, even if not RAW.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Tarantula, could you explain your logic. Your quotations seem to lead to the opposite conclusion then what your are suggestion.
You "make a flurry as an full attack action", you add attacks with Rapid Shot/Manyshot when you perform a full attack action with a ranged attack/bow respectively. If you flurry with a bow, you are performing a full-attack action with a ranged attack/bow. Fluffy does not say its is merely "treated as a full-attack action", it say you "make" (i.e. perform) it as full-attack action. Using flurry is a full-attack action, plain and simple. Is see no conflict there. You make flurry attacks as a full-attack action. If you are making them with ranged attack/bows, the feats should apply.
Now, Zen Archer does seem to indicate that perhaps RAI (debatable, but I could see the argument) you aren't supposed to be able to combine Rapid Shot/Manyshot with Flurry, there is not anything RAW supporting that. Moreover, it is illogical to say that a limitation written specifically for a single archetype is a actually meant to be a clarifying rule for the entire game, especially when it contains no language indicating that it is. That is not a reasonable assumption at all.
Both rapid/many shot say "When making a full-attack action..."
Flurry says "make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action." To me, this says that flurry is its own action, which takes the space of a full-attack action.
Other examples in the book of similar language are: "You can run as a full-round action." and "Coup de Grace: As a full-round action"
We don't say "I'm taking a full-round action. I'm going to use it to run this round." You simply say "I'm running this round." or "I'm going to coup-de-grace that helpless goblin." Likewise, you say "I'm going to flurry that orc." Not, "I'm taking a full-attack action to flurry that orc." Flurry is different than a full-attack action, which is why it has its own rules, and is its own ability. It lacks the similar text that rapid/many shot have of 'While taking a full-attack action' and instead says you can make a flurry as one.
I do see the opposite point stating that flurry uses a full-attack action instead, but I disagree that the RAW is clear on that. Zen archer was the first monk that could possibly have flurried with rapid/many shot, and that is why they clarified there that a zen archer cannot combine flurry with rapid/many shot.
Archer is better than Janeway, but not as good as Kirk, Picard, or Sisko.
I'm waiting for the Archer season four box set.
I'd prefer if the book was consistent in the style of wording for abilities. So, "While making a..." allows for all "While making a" to work together. Meanwhile, "as a" seems to be exclusive.
Like I said, Intent is probably that it is fine, monks are bad enough as is.
RAW, its mostly fine, but there's a little hiccup that makes me want it worded clearer. I'm not clamoring for a FAQ or errata on it, but I wouldn't be upset to see one.
RAI on the sohei, I think is not intended for flurry with a bow + rapid + many shot. Why? The zen archer, who is all about archery, cannot do it, so why can the sohei do it better?
I think, when the sohei came out, the current ruling was you needed 2 weapons for flurry, so there was no need to exclude rapid/many shot, as the best a sohei could put out was the same as a fighter +1 for ki.
Now that they reversed that ruling, and said flurry can be done all with one weapon, I'm thinking they should revisit the sohei and limit combining flurry with rapid/many shot.
I think by now the OP's question has been answered.