If they get made before the game starts it is close enough since the restrictions are time and money. Unlike magic items there is no feat required so I doubt the GM will just say "go take these spells known for nothing other than some gold".Most likely the custom spells will be made in game, so you can't just assume they are freebies.I'm confused, who said the spells were freebies?
Following that logic... Would you allow a character with crafting feats to spend part of his WBL on items he has crafted before he enters the campaign? The limitations on crafted items are gold and time as well, after all.
How about a wizard who spends part of his WBL buying scrolls and scribing those scrolls into his spellbook? Again, gold and time.
Obviously the the player and the GM would still have to go over the spellcraft and Knowledge checks involved to figur out how much gold he actually spent on research, as well as what spells he actually researched, but other than that I don't really see why a character can't have spent time doing research before he enters the campaign.
Well, that's a strong point. Maybe this should be answered by an FAQ? Changing a fundamental assumption of how caster classes work deserves an explicit comment, I'd say.
And indeed, the consequences are significant; while people here in the thread are trying to prove that it's a slow process, what does that matter to elven (or even *shudder* dwarven) sorcerers?
It's not entirely clear it's a change at all. The Gamermastery Guide allowed all the casters to research spells.
It's not entirely clear what happens when a spontaneous caster researches a new spell, but it still isn't.The research should cost at least 1,000 gp per spell level (or even more for particularly exotic spells) and require both the Spellcraft skill and a Knowledge skill appropriate to the researcher’s class. Wizards and bards use Knowledge (arcana), sorcerers use a Knowledge skill appropriate to their heritage (usually arcana, nature, or planes), druids and rangers use the Knowledge (nature) skill, and clerics and paladins use
Knowledge (religion)
Good find. At least we know sorcerers can research spells now. So that part is cleared up.
The UC handles when they get it, which is "When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed..."
Good catch Jeff, I didn't think to check the GMG. However that rules section starts with:
"An optional system for researching new spells is outlined below."
So... It's still a bit up in the air - is it an optional system to replace the rules presented in the CRB? Still, personally I'll allow spontaneous casters to research spells. There's no real reason not to.
However I'd still like to know if spell research is intended to be a way to sidestep the normal spells known limitations on spontaneous casters.
No it isn't. It's just a way for a sorcerer to replace spells that they already know with options other than allowed spells already in the book. Outside of the expanded arcana feat, favored class options, the spells known table stands as an unbreachable limit.Good catch Jeff, I didn't think to check the GMG. However that rules section starts with:
"An optional system for researching new spells is outlined below."So... It's still a bit up in the air - is it an optional system to replace the rules presented in the CRB? Still, personally I'll allow spontaneous casters to research spells. There's no real reason not to.
However I'd still like to know if spell research is intended to be a way to sidestep the normal spells known limitations on spontaneous casters.
There is a feat and a way to use favored class points to bypass it. It is not unbreachable at all.
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If they get made before the game starts it is close enough since the restrictions are time and money. Unlike magic items there is no feat required so I doubt the GM will just say "go take these spells known for nothing other than some gold".Most likely the custom spells will be made in game, so you can't just assume they are freebies.I'm confused, who said the spells were freebies?
To restate it, that open the problem of how those spells should be considered in your WBL.
- If you take extra spell using the feat or the preferred class ability: WBL effect 0;- if you buy/craft pages of spell knowledge: full effect on WBL;
- if you research the spells .... ?
Possible answers:
1) after having learned them they don't count in any way on your WBL if you are a spontaneous spellcaster and as a normal spell of that level if you are a memorizing spellcaster and it is added to your spellbook;
2) they count as full production cost independently from your class.
Problems with 1):
- it they don't count against your WBL a GM that follow the WBL guidelines should replace the character money, possibly in a way that will not give access to extra money to the other characters.
How many inheritances you can get in a lifetime?
- with this solution there is a huge imbalance with Page of spell knowledge.
Problem with 2):
- now for a magus, wizard or witch duplicating an existing spells, one that, if they have craft wondrous items, they can incorporate in pages of spell knowledge, become extremely pricey and not worth it.
Spontaneous spellcasters become the magic researchers as it is way better for all people involved it they research the spell (ans so they learn it) and then, if needed with the help of another character, craft a scroll of it.
If the second character has scribe scroll the spontaneous caster don't even need to get that feat.
- how it work for divine spellcaster that get the whole list of spells?
- what happen if the spellbook using character give the spell to another spellbook using character? What is the value of the spell for the second characrter?
If the creator spellbook is "accidentally" destroyed and he get a copy of the spell from the guy with which he shared it, the value of that spell change or is still the creation value?
TL, DR:
"This isn't fireball, this is MY fireball, it use saltpeter instead of bat guano. I have spend 3 weeks of magical research and 6.300 gp to make it less smelly."
So what is wort having that spell in your spellbook?
Even the CRB allows sorcerers to research spells. I'll post the quote again:
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
So while the quotes in GMG and UCamp also allow spontaneous casters to research spells, I'm not sure those quotes bypass the limitation already put in place by the CRB.
Even the CRB allows sorcerers to research spells. I'll post the quote again:
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.So while the quotes in GMG and UCamp also allow spontaneous casters to research spells, I'm not sure those quotes bypass the limitation already put in place by the CRB.
UCamp specifically says they gain the spell when the research is done. I do think it needs errata since it contradicts the CRB though, or the devs can say "the GM has the right to deny the spell until the character levels again", but leveling is not mentioned in UCamp.
Of course with all this aside I consider Ucamp to be optional rules so now I am wondering why I have been in this debate for so long.
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UCamp specifically says they gain the spell when the research is done. I do think it needs errata since it contradicts the CRB though, or the devs can say "the GM has the right to deny the spell until the character levels again", but leveling is not mentioned in UCamp.
Of course with all this aside I consider Ucamp to be optional rules so now I am wondering why I have been in this debate for so long.
Because in you lurks the thirst for The Truth, much as it does in the rest of the lurkers on the Rules Questions forum? :D
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So do you agree that the possibility is there, but that if this was an intentional change to spontaneous casters' spells known, it shouldn't be done with an offhand and somewhat ambiguous sentence, but with a clear and explicit statement?
Exactly. There a few accessory questions but the first and foremost is already in the first post. FAQed.
If we get a positive reply to the question (i.e. a spontaneous spellcaster get to add spells discovered through research to his list of spells know), I will prepare a FAQ about the cost of doing that research, as the price is on the same ballpark of crafting a Page of spell knowledge of the same level, a reasonable price for spontaneous spellcasters, but decidedly high for a spellcaster that memorize spells.
The utility of spell research is very different for the two kinds of spellcasters.
I really wish Paizo would allow post editing on this messageboard :(. Oh well, hit that FAQ button and let's see what the Q&A fairy will bring us!
Update: In case someone does a search for the same topic and finds this thread, SKR states here that spontaneous casters do NOT get to exceed their normal spells known limit using the spell research rules laid out in Ucamp.
