GMs: How do you handle PCs who break the law and beat guards?
This is a basic but standard question: What do you do when a PC commits crimes and then beats up/kills guards that try to arrest him?
The campaign is Curse of the Crimson Throne and in book #1,
(I don't have my source book here), but in Korvosa, I believe armed robbery comes with a long sentence (5+ years) and they cut your hands off (unless you pay a tax).
Khaine didn't try to cover his tracks or do anything to conceal himself or what he did. And now, at the Fishery, I figure there's enough time for the guard to respond. Typical guard patrol is four (level 2) guards and one (level 4+) captain. There's a good chance that he's just going to beat/kill them as well, and the party is probably going to help.
So what's the recourse at low levels? At this level, I could beat them down with multiple guard patrols, but the campaign effectively ends if that happens. I could punish just the offending PC, if the other PCs don't help. The PC *could* be pardoned at a later date, but he has to survive first (without killing guards).
Just curious as to how you think I should play this out:
1) Should I just beat them up with 2+ groups of guards at level 2? What do I do after they're arrested? It sounds like the end of the campaign. If the campaign ends (because one PC wanted to shut some annoying guy up), dozens of hours of work have been wasted for me.
2) Should I ignore it and let him get away with robbing the crazy dude?
3) Allow him to beat guards with no further recourse?
4) GM fiat Khaine to court (saying that the forces against him are too powerful and he gets captured)?
5) GM lightning bolt to the head? :)
6) Have the "big guns" come out (Sable Company or other well known NPCs)?
7) Talk to the player about being evil.
8) Something else.
And while we're discussing PC and crimes, what happens when the PCs get to a higher level and they commit crimes? When the PCs become level 6+, level 2 guards have no chance against them. Are the PCs just exempt from all laws at level 6+ (because they can't be enforced)? And if not, who is going to stop them? Do I have to bring out the big guys in the city (headmaster of the Academae, head cleric of Abadar, Sabbina, Blackjack)? Something else?
Depending on the size of the city there could be more powerful guards.
The captain of the guards may be particularly powerful, and the city may have elite guards/soldiers that are at least level 5 or 6. Before I get to my next suggestion I let my players know there is always someone bigger, and they may die from doing stupid things. If they are level 5 and they are beating up on level 2 guards, they should not assume I am going to send a level appropriate encounter after them, so if I send a level 9 captain, and 6 level 5 guards they brought it on themselves. I do however try to make it someone that may reasonably work for the government.
If they are level 9, and the captain knows he would be outmatched the government may hire other adventures/freelancers to handle the problem, and once again this encounter may or may not be level appropriate.
The 3.5 DMG had a way to determine the highest level person of any class in the city, to include the highest level city guard IIRC. This may also be in the GMG.
If the players are metagaming, and assuming you will allow them to live, sending such high level opponent after them should stop that. However if you won't really allow them to die, and they know it, you may have to talk to them out of game.
edit:This was a response to repeat offenses and higher level characters.
GMs: How do you handle PCs who break the law and beat guards?
This is a basic but standard question: What do you do when a PC commits crimes and then beats up/kills guards that try to arrest him?
The campaign is Curse of the Crimson Throne and
Spoiler:in book #1, a crazy prophet starts raving at the PCs. (No, the riots have not started yet and the PCs are level 2 and outside the fishery). Khaine (the PC), beats a crazy dude up and takes his money.(I don't have my source book here), but in Korvosa, I believe armed robbery comes with a long sentence (5+ years) and they cut your hands off (unless you pay a tax).
Khaine didn't try to cover his tracks or do anything to conceal himself or what he did. And now, at the Fishery, I figure there's enough time for the guard to respond. Typical guard patrol is four (level 2) guards and one (level 4+) captain. There's a good chance that he's just going to beat/kill them as well, and the party is probably going to help.
So what's the recourse at low levels? At this level, I could beat them down with multiple guard patrols, but the campaign effectively ends if that happens. I could punish just the offending PC, if the other PCs don't help. The PC *could* be pardoned at a later date, but he has to survive first (without killing guards).
I would have him
Just curious as to how you think I should play this out:
1) Should I just beat them up with 2+ groups of guards at level 2? What do I do after they're arrested? It sounds like the end of the campaign. If the campaign ends (because one PC wanted to shut some annoying guy up), dozens of hours of work have been wasted for me.
2) Should I ignore it and let him get away with robbing the crazy dude?
3) Allow him to beat guards with no further recourse?
4) GM fiat Khaine to court (saying that the forces against him are too powerful and he gets captured)?
5) GM lightning bolt to the head? :)
6) Have the "big guns" come out (Sable Company or other well known NPCs)?
7) Talk to the player about being evil.
8) Something else.
I might allow 2, depending on the alignment of the city. If the city is lawful people are more likely to volunteer as a witness. There is no way I would allow 3. That sets a bad precedent. The question is how close are the guards. Can they actually get to the PC's within the next few minutes?
I would not GM Fiat his capture. This could actually be fun.
I would not bring out the "big guns" until a number of guards(5 or more) are killed. That should be enough to warrant them a priority targets.
You can also talk to the player about consequences. I said consequences because I allow evil in my games, but the player has to be smart about it. If you don't like evil or stupid evil in your games then you may have to talk to the player about it, so you don't get put in a position that you dont like as a GM.
I thought the fishery was in a bad part of town. So in this instance would the guard respond all that quickly and would they care to investigate what happened to some random crazy dude?
However, the pc's actions are a big warning sign. I would say #7, talk to the player.
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*sigh* I GM my own setting and it's a sandbox, not an AP. That colors how I would react. My PCs live in the world and it has to react appropriately.
Personally I'd say they need to understand the difference between adventuring in a lawless environment and committing crimes in a civilized one. Have the locals get out the troops and arrest him with whatever force is required. Fine him. Let him work it off if he can't pay. Have the crazy guy plead for him and get him off easier than 5 years and no hands :) Or just plain do bad things to him if the crimes warrant it. Second level isn't too late to find a new PC.
The other players should get the idea. If you beat up a couple of cops in a bad neighborhood and your identity was known, what do you think the local police would do? Say "oh he's too bad, we'll hide"? No. They can't and remain as effective law enforcement. They have to respond. Typically with overwhelming force to make sure every one else knows who is in charge.
I'd set up a peripheral plot involving and old 2nd ed low level adventure that was designed for a solo thief. In between campaign games they got involved only there were no rogues in the group.
In the middle of the game they botched a break-in and killed an upstanding citizen in self-defense, including a bunch of guards. The group ended up having to flee the town with a posse in tow. In their game, however, part of the guard and officials were corrupt so they had to find evidence to prove the corruption to help clear their name.
If your group just bowed up to guards doing their jobs and killed them the city officials would probably send things up to higher ranking officials in the kingdom to help with a group of murderous adventures terrorizing their city.
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I have the guards perform aimed shots on the PCs. They target them in the knee.
If the crazy dude was a nobody and guards weren't there to stop the crime, then the guards have no reason to pursue the PC. The PC's are nobodies. No one knows who they are. Guards won't find tracks or evidence.
I suggest you drop the matter and have the crazy dude plot his revenge.
Without knowing the adventure and where things happened.... I'd suggest that step 1 is to look at the environment it happened in. Is the town relatively lawless or do the guards take their jobs very seriously? Were they in a good part of town where the guards have to make an effort (are getting leaned on politically to find the culprit and make the rich and powerful feel safe)? Is it a bad part of town where.... well... If your familiar with Ankh-Morpork, if you get rolled for your wallet in the Shades.... that's probably a pretty good outcome. Getting a coherent statement out of the crazy man might also be a little challenging as well and they might just throw him in the towns equiv of a drunk tank just in case he's on something.
Past that, if you think the guards would follow up on it, have the guards make perception / diplomacy rolls to talk to the locals and do general detective stuff. If they do well, then they might recognize Khaine as a person of interest about the crime. Again, things may depend on the part of town it happened in. Shady part of town, people might not want to talk to the guards. Incredibly well to do and the guards may be doing 'lip service' to their job because they think they've got more important things to worry about that the fears of a couple of merchants. Assuming enough of a margin of success and that Khaine can be identified somehow, queue them wanting to talk to Khaine and where things get interesting. Right now, he's probably just a suspect and wanted for questioning.
If he doesn't come quietly, that may escalate into known cop killer, and #1 priority in town. Assuming things get that far and he's considering it, I'd probably have him (or the whole party) make into or.... Knowledge local I guess for streetwise.... to determine how much it'll change the equation.
Now... also without knowing the AP at all... something that may mitigate things a little (but the PCs probably won't know yet) is you said the word 'Riots'. Crazy dude getting rolled for his wallet by someone a couple of days ago vs bunch of people rioting in the streets and trying to set things and people on fire right now.... I can tell you which activity is going to occupy the guard's time more. Depending, if they can make it to the riots without attracting further attention, the guards might forget about the whole thing after the rioting has finished / been put down.
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Just bear in mind that Korvosa is a strongly Lawful city. I would have a patrol of guard approach him and attempt to arrest him under suspicion (if there were no witnesses) of murder. If he kills the guard, he immediately goes from level 2 nobody to a guard killer, and probably becomes one of the most wanted men in Korvosa. Eventually, he will draw tougher guards, a bounty hunter, and eventually Hellknights if he continues.
If he goes in without a fuss, he is brought to Field Marshal Kroft. Recognizing his skill, she could possibly offer him a deal if he agrees to work for her.
It kind of depends on the player though.
IMC, if a PC commits a crime in a city and there's evidence pointing to him, city guards will typically be sent to arrest him. If the PC (and/or the whole group) slaughters those guards they all become outlaws. More guards will be sent after them, and eventually fairly powerful people will be also. The group may have to flee the city, or go into hiding, or pay a huge bribe (depending on what sort of place the city in question is). Or they might end up taking over the city (if they are very powerful themselves).
While it might end the AP if one or more PCs are imprisoned or killed, it doesn't have to end the campaign. Imprisoned PCs could get a chance to escape before being maimed/executed/whatever. And PCs fleeing the city might find other places to adventure.
Depends. Were there witnesses willing and able to go to/talk to the authorities? If so, did they know who this Khaine guy is? Is he particularly distinctive in appearance? If so, sure, the guards will go look for him. But really, how likely are all those things to be true?
Truly random violence is actually relatively hard to solve if there aren't any obvious clues. Much of the time, the authorities don't even try very hard unless there is a death involved. This is especially true if the victim has little standing in the community. In our world, the homeless are far, far more likely to be the victims of violence than to perpetrate it. Crimes against them don't generally get much, or often any, press.
That doesn't mean that it's safe to harrass crazy old men in bad neighborhoods. This is especially true in a fantasy game. You just know that eventually, sooner or later, one of them will be a cultist capable of siccing a shoggoth or demon on his attacker after the fact, or will be a wererat, or a rogue acting a part to case a nearby business (and who has a guild willing to deal with violence perpetrated on their members), or something else of that nature. Or maybe it's just that the crazy old guy's brawny adventuring grandson or nephew will happen by and take an interest.
But if the guards DO come and there IS a fight and the guards ARE killed/incapacitated, at that point you'd expect an experienced adventuring team to be called in. People who kill guardsmen, aka copkillers, are generally (and unsurprisingly) defined by society as enemies of society. Monsters, in other words. Exactly the types of monsters that a sizable fraction of paladins, nonevil urban rangers, and inquisitors would spend large parts of their careers tracking down and bringing to justice.
Moreover, not all authorities are mortal. There are others. If this Khaine has an evil patron deity, he's probably relatively protected. However, if his religious views are undefined or he is supposedly the follower of a good or neutral god, then he's open to retribution or chastisement if he keeps up this kind of behavior. Curative spells could be minimized or even negated from any non-evil source, he could suffer bad dreams at night (leaving him fatigued part or all of the following day), or he could have a invisible spiritual brand that gives him a minus to interaction rolls with nonevil creaturs. A mark of Khaine, if you will. Most devastating of all, he could find that the GM's hand of protection, never before noticed or felt, has been lifted from above his head.
Don't forget that at the time this happens, there should be rioting going on in Korvosa. There is a good chance that the guards are too busy to investigate one crazy person getting beat up and robbed. In fact, there is a specific scenario going on in the same time-frame which shows how overwhelmed the guards are.
In case you really want to punish the PC to set an example of how bad an idea it is to just rob people, have a Hellknight ( who also are definitely around the streets at this moment ) find the PC in question and try to take him in.
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Did the victim go to the guard and ask for justice through the proper channels ? Does the PC's act upset the proper order of things or disturb upright lawful citizens ?
If not, I think the guard in a Lawful city already has too much things to do on its collective hands to care about such low-level riff raff.
Honestly, in this kind of society, a crazy person is ignored as best people can. And as long as no respectable citizen feels concerned about it, that is the end of it. The crazy reaped what he sowed, which is as Lawful as can be.
Of course, should the PC get into the habit of using violence to get things done, respectable citizens will take notice and the legitimate authorities will act on it.
Here are some answers to questions some people have asked:
- Korvosa is an extremely lawful city, that includes both the government and the citizens. They have a cooperative legion of Hell Knights stationed in their city (Order of the Nail).
- The city is only 20K in population, big enough to be called a city but not big enough to go unnoticed.
- The beating occurred in a poor part of town but not the poorest part of town. Guards still go there.
- The beating is occurring before the rioting, it occurred on the way there. Also, (I’m actually delaying it to a later time.
- The guy they beat up could have been anything from a prophet/evangelist to a crazy bum. There wasn't a lot written about him, so I suppose I could make it whatever I wanted.
- The victim is unconscious, but I’m guessing with several witnesses the guards could have been called.
- Khaine, the offending PC, is a Fetchling and in Korvosa he is very distinctive (black skin, white hair).
- The crime was committed at twilight, there were witnesses, and due to the lawful nature of the city, perhaps they were even followed. Also, at the fishery they caused quite a commotion when they caused a landing of an old building to fall into the water, they fell into the water, and then were attacked by a shark, bleeding everywhere. So not exactly stealthy.
Really recommend showing the "crime and punishment" sidebar from Guide to Korvosa to the players. It can be quite the deterrent for some groups. ;)
No kidding. I actually read that after the fact. I will probably show the rest of them the sidebar before the next session.
OK, a little bit more about the area. It's in Midland Korvosa, so:
1) It's a middle class commercial district.
2) There are lots of people around since it happened around sun down.
3) The main guard citadel for the city is in this district.
4) Most guards own homes in the district.
5) It's an extremely law abiding city, both government and citizens.
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Have him arrested. At that time the riots will start and Field Marshal Cressida Kroft is in need of extra bodies to perform soem tasks for her, so she offers the PCs a deal: they either help her out and she will make the charges go away (it goes against her nature, but desperate times call for desperate measures), or she will have the PC tried for his crimes and see to it that he gets the severest punishment possible.
This way you will give the PCs an extra motivation to help Kroft out. And you'll get a nice opportunity for some role-playing to boot.
I have the guards perform aimed shots on the PCs. They target them in the knee.Isn't that the normal recruitment method?
Pretty much. Though I thought it would have been a hilarious bit if you managed an aimed shot to a Bandit Knee, have him look down, curse, and say "Damn it, now I have to join the town guard!" ;)