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Catch someone alone.
Use a distration (e.g. cast from the back row while the paladin is talking from the front).
"My good friend cast a spell of some sort. It's cool." Well, unless the victim has ranks in Spellcraft.
Catching someone alone, casting it twice on two guards, interrogating prisoners.... It's not a battle spell, and it's not a spell meant for casting in crowds. This doesn't make it useless.
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Even if someone does have ranks in spellcraft.
"Why are you charming me? We are already best friends. You know that."
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Even if someone does have ranks in spellcraft.
"Why are you charming me? We are already best friends. You know that."
Or even: "Charm Person? That can't be right! I must have missed my Spellcraft check. Why would my good friend Mysterio, MASTER OF MENTALISM! cast a charm spell on me?"
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Unless you stack both silent and still spell, everyone in the vicinity is going to know you just casted a spell or have a suspicion that you did. Which defeats the point of using charm person in the first place.
Actually, it defeats the purpose of all non-lethal spell casting. If you're going to cast a fireball spell on someone, it really doesn't matter if they figure out that you cast a spell because the fireball kinda gives it away, but if you cast protection spells, buffs, detects, enchantments, etc., everyone always knows you are casting something (clearly visible somatic components for many spells and clearly audible verbal components spoken in a strong voice for most spells).
As I play it, most people are NOT happy to see a stranger casting a spell. You walk into any of my towns and cast a spell, even if it's just something harmless like Bless, and you could have half the village attacking you the very next round - all it takes is for one townsfolk to see you casting something and shout out "We're being attacked by a witch!" or something like that, and they could be all over you.
No, I'm not usually that reactionary for the townsfolk, you're much more likely to have the city watch come and arrest you for unlawful spellcasting. But it depends on the town, and how fearful the population is regarding spellcasting (which is often a factor of campaign events).
Also, let's say you just walk up to someone and charm him before he can react. He becomes friendly to you. Does he still know you charmed him? What about after the spell wears off?
During the spell's duration, he has no idea he's charmed. Afterward, he remembers everything. He remembers thinking that some stranger seemed like his best friend (for no reason) and he remembers everything he did with and for his new "best friend". He remembers who you are or what you look like and will recognize you next time he sees you, and he will be EXTREMELY suspicious because he will know that something unnatural happened to make him feel and act the way he did.
What's worse, if you made him do things he will not like, such as charming a greedy merchant to let you take merchandise, or buy it at stupidly low prices, or such as charming a guard to let you into a protected palace, or charming a girl to ignore her vow of chastity, or charming a judge to let an obviously guilty criminal free, etc., the victim will not only remember that they did these things FOR YOU, because you asked them to, while they were unnaturally fond of you (for no reason), but they will resent that you made them do it.
In other words, Charm spells might make a friend for a little while, but it almost certainly will make you an enemy forever, once the Charm wears off.
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There's a first level spell in the APG called Memory Lapse that makes the target forget everything that happened since the beginning of its previous turn.
So..
First round, cast Charm Person.
Second round, say something like: "hey, good buddy, let me cast this protective spell on you," then cast Memory Lapse. Target deliberately fails its save to allow the spell to function.
You now have a charmed person who won't remember that you cast a spell when it wears off.
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In my games I allow casters to conceal their spellcasting if they wish by making a Spellcraft check opposed by Perception. The Spellcraft check takes a -4 penalty per spell component.
Well, yes, thats my point. Whats the point of charm person if it can't be used by the PCs in most situations? Unless you are playing a travelling troupe that goes around robbing towns with magic and then dissapearing in the night.
I keep seeing people say that charm person is a replacement for social skills. This does not appear to be true. You can use diplomacy to haggle prices down and the merchant might not like it, but he cant do anything since he agreed out of his own free will. Cast charm person, and he runs straight to the guard after the spell wears off.
Why is that so bad?
In our world, you can walk into a store, point a gun at the employees, and get them to give you whatever you want. It's illegal, and you'll go to jail, but it works.
In Golarion, you can walk into a store, cast a Charm Person on the employee, and get them to give you whatever you want. It's illegal, and you'll go to jail, but it works.
I don't see any reason why using magic to COERCE other people into doing your bidding AGAINST THEIR WILL should be accepted or tolerated in any way by anybody, any moreso than holding a gun (or crossbow) to their heads would be tolerated.
Frankly, spellcasters already rule the world. Even without the freedom to easily bend the wills of all mankind to force them into magical slavery, spellcasters reign supreme. I see no reason to make it any easier for them.
Charm Person is a level 1 spell. LEVEL ONE. It should never be a "I'll do whatever I want and there's nothing anybody can do about it" solution to all social problems. Anyone playing it that way is really overpowering this LEVEL ONE spell.
As far as making Charm Person actually useful, the important factors are:
1. Don't get caught casting it. After the spell wears off, the victim is automatically going to wonder why he was so fond of you. But if his only answer is "I guess that was a really likable guy" then you might get away with it - but that will never happen if his answer is "I saw that guy look right at me and cast a spell and then I was suddenly very fond of him, he must have used magic on me!"
2. Don't make the victim do things that he would never do, or even that he would really not want to do. Later, when he's thinking back on what he did, he's going to ask himself why he did those things for someone who was really just a likable stranger. If he cannot believe his actions were actually his own idea, then he's going to know he was magically compelled, and he's going to blame the likable stranger who made those requests of him.
So to summarize, avoid being seen casting it and then only get the guy to do things he might do on his own, anyway. Use your hidden Charm Person to get good BUT FAIR prices and the merchant will just think that you were a likable guy that drove a hard bargain, and he won't question it more than that and his suspicions won't be aroused.
That's one example of how it can be used safely. There are tons of other situations.
Or, alternatively, don't give a damn about the aftermath. You need a guard to open a prison and set a prisoner free? Use Charm Person and talk him into doing you a huge favor, since your his best friend and all, and because the prisoner was wrongly accused - yes, talk him into believing that too, since he's likely to believe his best friend. Then get your prisoner and get out of town before the spell wears off. If that guard ever sees you again, he's likely to attack first and ask questions later. But this is no different than if you walked up to him and cast Magic Missile and did enough damage to knock him out (but he survives) and then stole his keys - either way, you used magic to free a prisoner and he was the victim, and either way, he won't ever be anything but hostile about it.
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Foe Bards's at least there is a pretty cool feat called Spellsong
Spellsong
You can blend the power of your performance and spellcasting.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, bardic performance class ability, able to cast 1st-level spells.
Benefit: You can combine your bardic performance and your spellcasting in two ways. First, you can conceal the activity of casting a bard spell by masking it in a performance. As a swift action, you may combine your casting time of a spell with a Perform check. Observers must make a Perception or Sense Motive check opposed by your Perform check to realize you are also casting a spell. This uses 1 round of your bardic performance ability, regardless of the spell's casting time.
Second, as a move action, you can use 1 round of bardic performance to maintain a bard spell with a duration of concentration. You can cast another spell in the same round you are using bardic magic to maintain concentration; if you do this, your concentration on the maintained spell ends when you end the bardic performance the spell is part of.
It's a high magic world. People cast spells, pray, make gestures to ward off evil, etc all the time. Without ranks in Spellcraft, you have no idea what they are doing- unless you have to make a save, of course.
First, you don't use spells AGAINST people who you want to like you. You don't go up and blind the guard of your ally, so don't go up and charm him either. You don't fireball innocent villagers, so don't charm them either.
It's a perfectly good spell for limited applications, but those applications seem like they would be REALLY common in fantasy games.
You use it on the guy guarding the back door of the enemy outpost. Any lone guy is a good target, so long as you use it on people who were going to be angry at you anyway. You were invading the castle, right? So, you just invaded more easily!
You use it on the guy handling the guard dogs (or zombies, or whatever). He's charmed, and his minions all obey him. They might not know why he doesn't want you attacked, but they follow orders.
You use it on the knowledgeable minion who is wandering around. Sure, he's not powerful, but he's got a set of keys, and he knows where the prisoners are kept, and he knows how to turn off the traps.
You use it on the bad guy to get him to put down his dangerous, magical weapons. You were going to attack him anyway, for killing your family, but it's sure a lot easier when he doesn't have that vorpal sword, isn't it?
The enemy team consists of dangerous spell-casters with really good Will saves and terrible CMD, and a big lunkhead with a low will save and great CMB. "Hey, good buddy! Don't let that guy fireball me!" Odds are, the evil guys aren't all close friends. He might not even LIKE the wizard. While he might not smite him, even tackling him and holding him down is gonna be helpful, right?
The crucial thing is, you know it's a mind control spell and it will wear off. Don't use it on people if you need them to like you long term. Some of the time, though, you just need them to be helpful for a little bit. Heck, if you charm them long enough to lure them closer (or let your friends get into position) it can be helpful, even though it might have lasted one round! It's first level! Don't expect it to be awesome. Doesn't mean it's not useful.
I'm not fan of options that look cool on paper but have limited real world applications.
Still waiting for someone to explain this...why would you use charm person over hypnotism, barring the HD limitation?
Duration, for starters. Hypnotism is 2d4 rounds. Charm person is an hour per level. That's an hour of being friends with Crush the Ogre, who will defend you against whatever isn't also his friend. And with a decent bluff, perhaps Crush will believe the orcs in the castle are just using him and don't appreciate him the way you do. That could mean 3 hours of having an ogre pet. Per casting of the spell.
Or having the captain of the guard escort you around, bypassing normal guards.
Or having several noblemen argue your cause at a council, because they like you.
You simply have to do it on the downlow, like many subterfuge spells. Hypnotism has a more direct approach, but charm person is more flexible for extended periods.
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Go watch a show like Leverage, then think of all the possibilities if a key person likes you for the next 1-5 hours. It can be great for questioning, getting a private tour of the facility, a guard letting you escape...
I do say though, Charm Person is harder to use well than a typical combat spell. It's more a Heist kind of spell.
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The best way to use a charm spell is to simply use it to reinforce a perfectly reasonable suggestion.
One of my preferred method is to cast it on the target and then direct the request like this.
"My friend, we're having a misunderstanding here. Please take this gold piece and run down to X tavern (furthest away) and buy a bottle of wine and bring it back. We all can work out this misunderstanding over a drink and become friends."
Even when the spell wears off it still seems like a reasonable request, removes the target from combat (and makes him come back to finish him off) and if you lose the fight your new friend is still inclined to help rescue you.
We've all met someone who was so charming that we followed along with a lot of what they suggest even though we know we probably shouldn't. Like that person you met at a bar and KNOW you shouldn't go home with them but you still do. Use the spell like that and reap the benefits especially if you keep the requests reasonable and when it wears off the ill-will should be next to nothing.
Or having the captain of the guard escort you around, bypassing normal guards.Works only for a short while. Hope you are not planning to come back to that city anytime soon since now you are wanted by the guards.
Or having several noblemen argue your cause at a council, because they like you.As above.
Who sez? No where in the spell does it say that after the spell wears off they now hate you and remember you Charmed them.
Go watch a show like Leverage, then think of all the possibilities if a key person likes you for the next 1-5 hours. It can be great for questioning, getting a private tour of the facility, a guard letting you escape...
I do say though, Charm Person is harder to use well than a typical combat spell. It's more a Heist kind of spell.
Its great if your party is a travelling band of criminals. Not that much in a travelling band of adventurers though (like how killing crops is amazing...if you are an antagonist witch extorting a town. Useless if you
are an adventurer).
Nonsense. We have used it thousands of times over the last four decades or so in legit adventuring situations.
Who sez? No where in the spell does it say that after the spell wears off they now hate you and remember you Charmed them.
You're looking at it backward. Nowhere in the spell does it say that after the spell wears off they forget all about the spell. That's the critical part.
If you fireball someone (and he survives), he will definitely remember being hit with a fireball. If you heal someone, he will definitely remember being healed. Everybody remembers EVERY spell that is used on them, good and bad, unless the spell says they don't. So if you charm someone, he will definitely remember being charmed.
For this to NOT be true, the Charm Person spell would need to have explicit text in the spell saying that the victims don't remember being charmed.
Also, casting a spell is usually very obvious, so if they see you casting a spell and then something happens to them that they remember, they will automatically assume you did it.
Now, charming someone just makes them like you. If you only call upon that friendship to ask them to do things they would want to do anyway, then later when the spell wears off, they will only remember having a good time with a nice guy. They might not even know they were charmed. However, they might just wonder why they liked you so much (maybe too much) and, if they saw you cast some magic spell and they immediately realized that you were their best friend, and now they remember that, and they remember that they never thought of you as a friend before that moment, they're going to figure out that your spell did something to their mind.
Just about every intelligent creature who is capable of understanding the concept of mind control will HATE the idea of being mind controlled. And if they remember doing thinks they really would never do, like giving away their store inventory or letting criminals into the place they're guarding, etc., then they will be hateful toward the person they believe controlled their mind.
Even if you manage to cast Charm Person without them ever seeing you do it, if you start making unreasonable requests as their best friend who they never met before a few minutes ago, they'll still figure out it was you after the spell wears off.
And they will be extremely resentful of being controlled like that.
Is there some sort of Amnesia spell? If there is, I guess you could cast that on someone you Charm, after you're done.
Who sez? No where in the spell does it say that after the spell wears off they now hate you and remember you Charmed them.You're looking at it backward. Nowhere in the spell does it say that after the spell wears off they forget all about the spell. That's the critical part.
If you fireball someone (and he survives), he will definitely remember being hit with a fireball. If you heal someone, he will definitely remember being healed. Everybody remembers EVERY spell that is used on them, good and bad, unless the spell says they don't. So if you charm someone, he will definitely remember being charmed.
For this to NOT be true, the Charm Person spell would need to have explicit text in the spell saying that the victims don't remember being charmed.
Also, casting a spell is usually very obvious, so if they see you casting a spell and then something happens to them that they remember, they will automatically assume you did it.
Now, charming someone just makes them like you. If you only call upon that friendship to ask them to do things they would want to do anyway, then later when the spell wears off, they will only remember having a good time with a nice guy. They might not even know they were charmed.
They may remember meeting you, but how can they remember a spell being cast if they can't recognize a spell?
Do they have ranks in Spellcraft so they can ID that a spell is being cast and what it is? All they know is that their buddy was moving his fingers around in a odd way for a couple of seconds and saying some nonsense. Maybe it was a prayer or a charm to ward off bad luck or whatever. Where they watching you cast the spell, even?
Sure, they took a sudden liking to you. That happens all the time. So what?
And, right- CP isn’t Dominate. You don't get them to do stuff they wouldn't normally do for a freind. So, yes- exactly "then later when the spell wears off, they will only remember having a good time with a nice guy. They might not even know they were charmed."
Unless they have enough ranks into SpellCraft or SenseMotive, I disagree that they can figure out they were charmed automatically.
If a person doesn't know they've been charmed, it could have been the Bluff or Diplomacy skill used against them. This is the more common case in an individual's life (be it guard, merchant, etc.) To have people automatically assume magic was used and thus automatically hate the caster is a wee bit strong.
Regardless, use a bit of the Bluff skill to make them think your requests were their ideas. They can't really even blame you for it then. They may still if you get too unreasonable, but using skills in tandem with Charm Person should greatly negate this.
Again, this all boils down to how reasonable your requests are:
If you walk up to a prison guard and do ANYTHING that convinces him to let you sneak in and break a convict out of prison, that guard will remember it and remember you did it and resent you for doing it, and he will no doubt treat you like an enemy if he ever sees you again.
It doesn't matter if you Intimidated him "Open the prison for me or I'll kill you."
It doesn't matter if you Bluff him "The warden wants this prisoner right away!".
It doesn't matter if you bop him on the head and knock him unconscious.
It doesn't matter if cast Sleep on him. It doesn't matter if you cast Charm Person on him "Hey good buddy, that guy in there is wrongfully accused, help me break him out and clear his good name as a personal favor to me, your best friend."
It doesn't matter if you Charm and Bluff him "Hey good buddy, the warden sent me, your best friend, to relieve you at your post so you can have a night home with your family".
The next day, when the warden is firing the prison guard for dereliction of duty and that ex-guard runs to his brother-in-law who leads a mercenary band and he hires the mercenaries to come after you, the guy who got him fired and ruined his life, it really won't matter whether you used your Bluff skill or not, or used a Charm Person spell or not - that guy and all his mercenaries will be coming after you because you coerced/tricked/forced him to do something he would never do.
No, the only way to use Charm Person and get away with it is to cast it unobserved AND limit your friendly requests to things your victim would probably do anyway. Otherwise, just cast it, do what you want, and expect the guy to be your enemy forever, no more and no less than he would be your enemy if you cast fireball on him (and he survived).
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Regardless, use a bit of the Bluff skill to make them think your requests were their ideas. They can't really even blame you for it then. They may still if you get too unreasonable, but using skills in tandem with Charm Person should greatly negate this.
I think they still would resent you. Think of how many times you've heard someone say "they MADE me do it!" People don't take responsibility for their actions, they blame others. That's how we are. So even if you use bluff to trick someone , or intimidate to pressure them, into doing something they don't want to do, they will be angry later. Their BOSS will certainly blame their flunky for helping you, but the boss will be angry with you too.
They may remember meeting you, but how can they remember a spell being cast if they can't recognize a spell?
What, are we talking about casting the spell on zombies? On dogs?
Do they have ranks in Spellcraft so they can ID that a spell is being cast and what it is? All they know is that their buddy was moving his fingers around in a odd way for a couple of seconds and saying some nonsense. Maybe it was a prayer or a charm to ward off bad luck or whatever.
I think it's quite clear in the RAW that without Still/Silent spell feats, spellcasting is fairly obvious. And every intelligent villager (say, INTO 6 or higher, or thereabouts) has seen tons of spells being cast his whole life. He doesn't need to know WHAT spell is being cast to recognized that SOME spell is being cast.
Where they watching you cast the spell, even?
I've already mentioned that casting the spell unobserved is a good idea. It won't stop him from remember his odd behavior or his odd fondness for a total stranger or the fact that a curiously friendly total stranger asked him to do some very unwanted things and he was oddly willing to do them. But at least won't ALSO remember seeing that strangely friendly stranger cast a sepll right before the rest of the weirdness started.
Sure, they took a sudden liking to you. That happens all the time. So what?
Taking a sudden liking to a person happens all the time. I like a lot of people. But I won't behave in any fashion that is unusual for me just because I like someone. In a world of magic, if I start doing things for a total stranger who I suddenly like for no reason, and the things I am doing are unusual for me, I will be very suspicious. The more unusual, the more suspicious I will be. Also, a sudden unexplained "best friend" fondness for a person I've never met before would be a giant red flag that something is not right - I may not realize it while I'm still charmed, but afterward, I think that would be very obvious to anyone more intelligent than Larry, Moe, or Curly.
And, right- CP isn’t Dominate. You don't get them to do stuff they wouldn't normally do for a freind. So, yes- exactly "then later when the spell wears off, they will only remember having a good time with a nice guy. They might not even know they were charmed."
Quite true, if all you did was ask them to tie their shoelaces or come to dinner with you. But if you called upon their "friendship" to do anything unusual AND your friendship was a super-short weird friendship with someone they had never met before, again, only Harry Dunne and Lloyd Christmas would be dumb enough to NOT be suspicious of that.
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I agree that Bluff and Diplomacy are useful with Charm Person but not perfect solutions. They help you to make requests seem reasonable such that the target is less likely to consider their behavior while charmed odd, but as DM_Blake said they won't help you to convince a target to do anything wildly out of their nature without making an enemy. After all, if a friend got me fired I'd be pretty angry with the friend even if I didn't suspect that the "friend" was an enchanter or bard.
Personally, I used Bluff a little while back to convince a Charmed target that I was a childhood friend she hadn't seen in a while. This gave her something to attach her sudden feelings of friendship to. I then asked her for some personal information that she wouldn't have given a stranger but that didn't seem too out of place to be sharing with a childhood friend who wanted to "catch up."
Is there some sort of Amnesia spell? If there is, I guess you could cast that on someone you Charm, after you're done.
Nothing that will cover the entire duration of Charm Person, though as stated previously in this thread Memory Lapse will remove someone's memory of you casting a spell on them, and Modify Memory can remove 5 minutes worth of Charm Person abuse.
With proper skill usage, this guard's "rage" will be directed at the warden and not the PC."Hey good buddy, the warden sent me, your best friend, to relieve you at your post so you can have a night home with your family".
The next day, when the warden is firing the prison guard for dereliction of duty and that ex-guard runs to his brother-in-law who leads a mercenary band and he hires the mercenaries to come after you, the guy who got him fired and ruined his life, it really won't matter whether you used your Bluff skill or not, or used a Charm Person spell or not - that guy and all his mercenaries will be coming after you because you coerced/tricked/forced him to do something he would never do.
How do you figure?
Warden: Nice of you to show up. Where were you last night during the prison break?
Guard: What? What prison break?
Warden: Someone broke in and set a prisoner free. Where were you?
Guard: Home with my family.
Warden: What!?!?
Guard: Yeah, remember, you sent that new guy to relieve me?
Warden: I did NO SUCH THING!
Guard: He said you sent him so I could have the night off...
Warden: No, you idiot, I never sent anybody to relieve you! What kind of dipstick are you, anyway? Who was this guy?
Guard: He was my friend. At least, I, uh, think he was. Last night I was sure he was a really good friend, but today, I can't remember ever seeing him before last night.
Warden: A total stranger was your good friend? You didn't think that was strange?
Guard: Well, no, I didn't. He made a lot of sense and he was my good friend, so, I, uh, guess I believed him.
Warden: What a numbskull. If that guy was your "friend" them I am Aroden himself. Get out of my sight. You're fired. You'll never work in this town again. You're lucky I don't throw YOU in that prison for being so stupid!
Yeah, you're right, this guy is going to be pissed at the warden for firing him, but he's going to KNOW that his mysterious "friend" last night was the real cause of his problems, no matter how many skills you used on him last night.