I am in the process of making a second character for PFS, which will be an Alchemist.
Right now my build is nothing original, was going to go with your standard Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Precise Bombs, etc.
But I am really wrestling right now on what race to start with. I am going back and forth between Elf or Tiefling. Both give the attribute bonuses to the two stats most important to me, but it’s the other aspects which have me torn. I like the Elf because of not only it’s racial traits (immune to Sleep, +2 against Enchantments) but I also really like the given weapon proficiencies, as well. I know bombs do not last forever, and there will be times I just can’t use them, so I like to have the back up of a bow, and prefer a composite longbow over light crossbow as I plan to have a Tiefling with at least a 13 Str.
But I like the Tiefling because the -2 goes towards Charisma and not my Constitution as well as the favored class option. But then I have to go with a light crossbow, which I would have to burn an extra feat towards Rapid Reload down the line.
How important would you say it is on which bow you have? Am I concentrating too much on that? If I am, then what do you consider as good back up option than bombs if run out of them/go against a creature they are not effective towards?
Here are my builds for the two races:
Elf
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 10
Tiefling
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 10
I know some are thinking I should put my points into Wisdom instead of Strength for my Tiefling, but I do not like tanking out my Str. as I always have carrying capacity issues. And I am also planning on taking Indomitable Faith with my Tiefling so I have some sort of Will save.
Any suggestions and ideas are appreciated. And please feel free to be critical, but if you do so, please say why and what you would suggest instead.
Thank you!
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I have an alchemist who just got to level 5, and I'm building him along the same lines, focusing on bombs (although he's a Trap Breaker archetype as well).
I went with stats of 14/16/12/16/12/7. 14 STR means I don't have much trouble with carrying capacity, and I use a longspear when I don't want to waste bombs. Pop a Strength mutagen, and you're doing 1d8+6, which is respectable at low levels when you have fewer bombs and extracts. I also consider being human to be very helpful, because ranged attacking requires a lot of feats; that lets you get Precise Shot right out of the gate, and use later feats for modifying bombs and such.
With my original build, I did go human and chose Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at 1st level. But I just could not pass up the additional stat bonuses with the other races. With the human, I was going to have only one 16, where with the Elf or Tiefling, I have a 16 in both Dex and Int.
My character is going to be more of a ranged specialist than melee, which I know does go against choosing another race besides human (in losing the additional feat). And I find the HPs of an alchemist is not enough to go into melee consistently and I’ve also found PFS to be more deadly the last season or two.
Also, I didn’t tank my Cha, not just for the fact I don’t like to tank stats in general, but also because I do plan on raising my UMD as wands are especially useful in PFS.
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If you like a very good alchemist/archer combo look into the Grenadier Archetype for Alchemist. You can do some neat tricks early, and it gets you Precise Bombs fo'free at level 2. Free weapon proficiency, so you can snag Longbow off the bat and stay a tiefling if you want. And, every Pathfider should have legal access to it since it is in the Pathfinder Field guide, and that is part of the core assumption.
If you are not going to use bows, consider leaving Precise Shot until later. With regular bombs, you are targeting touch attacks so the -4 will not hurt as much. If you are going grenadier, do keep human in mind because then I would pick up Point Blank and precise as my two level 1 feats.
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TBH, I find that the only reason to go higher than 14 DX for an alchemist is the +AC and maybe the Initiative. Your bombs are ranged touch attacks, and except for that weird monk, or strange creature, most touch AC's are going to be 10-16. By level 8 You will almost always (minus that low roll (<5)) hit with your first bomb, and if you have fast bombs, your 2nd will be at worst ~25/75 miss/hit.
If you run out of bombs to throw, use your ability to make cheap alchemist fires and such (liquid ice, etc). At lower levels the difference in a direct hit from a bomb and your alchemist fire is not an issue, and at higher levels--if your INT is maxed--hopefully you won't go through all your bombs in a PFS scenario. If you do, you still can do 1d6 +INT value...not much, but at least something.
Another possibility is to go Mindchemist. With Cognatogen you will find that your bomb damage will go up (especially with targeted bomb admixture). Plus you become the skill monkey for all knowledge skills.
Additionally, if you are going to go for the "Hail Mary" throws, go for Splash Weapon Mastery instead of Far Shot. The ability to attempt to move a missed bomb either +1/-1 squares can be a big help, along with the extra 1 more "splash" square.
Finally, Once you get to a decent level (6-8), I would really recommend getting infusion. The ability to give out your infusions (such as shield, false life, or even higher level stone skin) literally makes you a force multiplier for the group. If you are set up to help the party this way, it could allow the spellcasters to pick other spells instead of the buff spells.
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Check out The Toaster...
I went with Elf, - and now that I'm 10th level I can say I have never used a Bow. Ever. In 10 levels. In fact, I have never even bought one (kept putting it off).
I have just resently created a second Alchemist... and she is also an elf.
If you are going with Bomb concentration... Max out Int. Really. It pays SO much.
Anyway, click on The Toaster and check him out...
edit: what Waldergrave said - he gave good advice! Though I would also check out Chirurgeon (Archetype).
@CRobledo
I had looked at the Grenadier before but dismissed it because at the time I really wanted to have the option to use poison with my Alchemist. It was one of the reasons why I wanted to go down the ranged route because I wanted to do ranged poison sometimes when I got to be higher level.
But after looking at the legal list of poisons for society, I think I’ve pretty much abandoned that route. I really did want to try poison as I haven’t done it before with any character, but it just has been nerfed too much for Society.
So the Grenadier archetype does look a lot more appealing now.
I still would like to use bows as a back-up (to bombs), as I just like bows in general and feel they are a better option than melee for an alchemist.
@RainyDayNinja
Yes, I know that I am able to use wands for spells on my formulae list. I definitely plan to do that as well, but would like the option to use other wands as well, as there are some really useful ones (that aren’t on my list).
@Waldergrave
These are some great suggestions, thanks!
And I see your point about not needing to go above a 14 Dex due to throwing bombs is a ranged touch attack. However, as I said, I do want the option to use bow attacks as a back up. Or do you think there are better options for back up attacks instead of bow?
Also, you had said if I do run out of bombs, I can still do 1D6 (Alchemist Fire?)+Int bonus. May I ask where you get the “+Int bonus”? I know you get the Int bonus for bombs, but do you get it for other thrown splash weapons as well?
I already plan on taking Infusion as a Discovery later on. I like to contribute any way I can to the party and I can’t pass on giving some really nice buffs to the ‘true’ damage dealers at higher levels. I realize my damage is only ever going to be secondary (or worse) to several other classes. So I’ll do what I can do well in helping them.
@The Toaster
I am curious, what do you use for alternate offense if you run out of bombs? Although with your Int, I’m guessing that is hard for you to do.
Speaking of which, how did you get it so high? Let me see, you started with a 20 Int? Bought it up to 18 and the +2 Elven bonus. Of course raised it to 21 and 22 respectively at 4th and 8th levels and you have a +6 Headband of Vast Intellect?
But where do you get the other +2?
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I have rarely seen a scenario that the fights start longer than 100 feet (I know there are some, so I won't say it doesn't happen). Longbows are wonderful if you go archer build (with all the feats and other perks) or if there are 100+ feet fights in the games. A lot of the feats you will get will likely go towards discoveries (which I think are as good as a lot of feats if not better).
Alchemists get the "Throw Anything" which gives +INT bonus to all splash weapons.
" An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature"
This makes an alchemist fire do 1d6 + INT. Which if you think about it is actually better than a shortbow, or a longbow without adaptive (and ah high ST). The biggest issues is the range increments. 10' range increments means that you will be at -2 at 15', and -4 at 25' (etc). That is why splash weapon mastery helps.
Don't sell yourself short on inflicting damage. Your damage will be resistant to the elements (fire for fire bombs, etc), but not any DR. I would suggest that when you hit the min level to get it, force bombs make your bombs fun (lower damage, but almost nothing can resist the damage, and the primary target getting knocked prone helps).
My level 12 alchemist does 6d6+8 (or +16 if I drink the targeted admixture). If I have my cognatogen going that goes up by +3 more (or +6 with targeted)--I have greater cognatogen now. The damage if you can hit twice a round is 12d6+16 (with not targeted), or ~50 damage each round. You will likely be on par with a lot of other blasters.
Just keep in mind that infusions allows any of your elixirs to be handed out...not just cure spells. I think that is really how an Alchemist becomes an awesome support character.
I would start to at least plan out your levels (maybe level 1 to 6-7) to see how it goes with +Hit, spells, and damages (with bombs, with bows, with alchemical items, with HtH). That might help you decide on weapons/equipment.
Hobbun, it is your build, build it as you want, and have fun with it. All we can do is give you thoughts and suggestions. :-)
I will say that I have yet to really see a "BAD" alchemist build, though I have only seen about 7-8 different builds being played, so my data pool is kinda limited.
Thanks so much on your suggestions, Waldergrave, and everyone else for that matter. You’ve given me a lot to think about.
I really do like the idea of the Force Bomb as it seems like a lot of creatures are resistant to fire to some extent, especially at higher levels. I may even take Frost Bomb, as well.
Edit: Is there any feat or ability that will allow me to increase my range increment other than Longshot?
@Redrednaw
I was not thinking of trying to start with a 20 Int, that was just in reference to The Toaster’s alchemist.
Also, the Tiefling (which I am leaning towards taking) has the same favored class ability as the Half-Orc, in adding ½ to Bomb damage, as well as having Darkvision.
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....snipping good points about Throw Anything....
Not sure about starting with a 20 int...that leaves you very thin for anything else. Maybe a 17(19) post-racial and 4th level bump into int. Also depends upon whether you use dump stats (I don't like using dump stats.)
...snipping later comments....
a note on starting with a 20 INT....
I have heard this statement from a lot of people, and I have not found it to be true... but lets look at the numbers.Here's The Toasters starting stats:
Strength 10
Dexterity 16
Constitution 10
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 10
Charisma 7
He's an elf.
I actually decided on the 7 CHA before I pushed his INT to 20, as I wanted a socially inept character. So his 7 is for RP - and dthat leaves him with 10s in most stats, and a DEX of 16.
"...starting with a 20 int...leaves you very thin for anything else..."? It leaves you with a 16 DEX and 10s in everything except CHA. I do not see this as an issue.
A 20 INT means you get an extra 1st level Extract - so you go from 2 extracts to 3. Meaning you get 50% more at 1st level.
Your Bomb damage goes up by 1, and the splash damage goes from 5 to 6... or from 2 to 3 if they make the reflex save. (This means your Bomb damage is an average of 8.5, where a longbow does 4.5 plus strength... so someone would need an 18 strength bow to get the same average damage).
The Bomb save DCs go up by 1 and the number of bombs a day go up by 1.
Goodness - why would you NOT take an INT as high as you can get it?
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Thanks so much on your suggestions, Waldergrave, and everyone else for that matter. You’ve given me a lot to think about.
I really do like the idea of the Force Bomb as it seems like a lot of creatures are resistant to fire to some extent, especially at higher levels. I may even take Frost Bomb, as well.
Edit: Is there any feat or ability that will allow me to increase my range increment other than Longshot?
@Redrednaw
I was not thinking of trying to start with a 20 Int, that was just in reference to The Toaster’s alchemist.
Also, the Tiefling (which I am leaning towards taking) has the same favored class ability as the Half-Orc, in adding ½ to Bomb damage, as well as having Darkvision.
Please reconsider the 20 INT... I have found it to be SUCH an advantage that when I created another Alchemist, the only stat fixed was the 20 INT. SO many advantages.
My second Alchemist is a Crypt Braker - who only get's d4s bomb damage on most creatures (d8s on undead and constructs)... but I kept the 20 INT.
And check out Concussive bomb, which you can take at 6th level. At 8th (when you would be able to take Force Bomb) you'll likly want to take Fast Bomb.
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Force bomb is amazing. I have it on my skull and shackles alchemist.
It goes through every damage reduction in the game
Its not subject to spell resistance
It blows away incorporeal targets like ghosts.
And it knocks things on their keisters: tripping something to keep it from full attacking or providing your meat shields.. erm.. allies a +4 bonus to whack it
If its supposed to be impossible to kill, this is its kryptonite. Get point blank shot, precise shot,(which you need anyway) then rapid shot. If your party is mowing through the encounter anyway, lob a single bomb or just plunk with the bow for something to do. Then when the ghost/spectre/adamantium golem go nova and leave a smoldering crater where the threat used to be.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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It leaves you with a 16 DEX and 10s in everything except CHA. I do not see this as an issue.
Let me explain why it's an issue:
10 STR means that after putting on a chain shirt, some clothes, and your alchemy crafting kit, you're already in medium encumbrance.
10 CON is just terrifying. You're fine with only getting 5 or 6 hp per level? Good luck the first time you get hit with a claw/claw/bite routine. I have 12 or 14 CON on all my characters, and I've lost count of the number of times I've been within a hair's-breadth of death.
10 WIS means your Will saves will be in the tank. Have fun sleeping through the fight/killing your teammates/getting channeled to death.
On the other hand, if you toned that INT down to just 18 (losing only 1 bomb per day and 1 damage), you could get your STR, CON, and WIS all 2 points higher, helping encumbrance, health, Will saves, Perception, etc.
My alchemist had stats of 14/16/12/16/12/7 to start (he has 18 INT at level 5 now), and I've never felt like I was missing out on bombs or damage. But having 14 STR meant that I could step up and help out in melee when we needed it, as well as carry a utility belt overflowing with miscellaneous alchemical items and still be able to move at full speed.
Ok, here is what I have so far for my Alchemist, and will be going with the Grenadier archetype:
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8
I don't have a modifier for my Will saves, but I plan on taking Indomitable Will for a trait, which will give me a +1.
Feats/Discoveries:
1st Point Blank Shot
2nd Precise Bomb, Explosive Bomb
3rd Precise Shot
4th Cognatogen
5th Splash Weapon Mastery
6th Infusion
7th Rapid Shot
8th Fast Bombs
9th Extra Discovery-Force Bomb
10th Smoke Bomb
11th Extra Discover-Blinding Bomb
12th Greater Cognatogen
What do you think? I tried to pick the order what I would want to pick up the discoveries, but a couple I just wish I could take earlier, however, did not want to give up what I had there already.
Please if you give suggestions for other Discoveries, also give a suggestion on what you think I should take out.
Edit: Oh question on Explosive Bomb, it says:
The alchemist's bombs now have a splash radius of 10' rather than 5'.
As it says bombs, as in plural, does this extended splash radius apply for all times I throw a bomb, or just an explosive one?
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Explosive bomb question: only applies to explosive bombs themselves.
Looks good. Honestly, my only changes would be to forget Cognatogen (if that is the focus of the character, I'd go with the mindchemist archetype instead) and use your mutagen to bump your Dex instead. With 3/4 BAB you are bound to miss more with archery (or STR with an adaptive bow if the bad guy is easy to hit). Plus, if you are drinking a cognatogen for INT, then you are lowering STR, and that lowers bow damage.
Look into the Explosive Missile discovery to replace Cognatogen. It really cranks up the damage for grenadiers! Lets you shoot bombs at 110' away! :P
If you're going to dump cha. DUMP cha. You're never using a charisma based skill with that build anyway, may as well get the points for it.
The only reason my Charisma is an 8 is because I am a Tiefling, and did not want to allocate points towards my Cha to make it 12 first.
If I'm going to really get any decent points out of my Cha, I would be dumping it to a 5 (with the -2).
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It leaves you with a 16 DEX and 10s in everything except CHA. I do not see this as an issue.Let me explain why it's an issue:
10 STR means that after putting on a chain shirt, some clothes, and your alchemy crafting kit, you're already in medium encumbrance.
10 CON is just terrifying. You're fine with only getting 5 or 6 hp per level? Good luck the first time you get hit with a claw/claw/bite routine. I have 12 or 14 CON on all my characters, and I've lost count of the number of times I've been within a hair's-breadth of death.
10 WIS means your Will saves will be in the tank. Have fun sleeping through the fight/killing your teammates/getting channeled to death.
On the other hand, if you toned that INT down to just 18 (losing only 1 bomb per day and 1 damage), you could get your STR, CON, and WIS all 2 points higher, helping encumbrance, health, Will saves, Perception, etc.
My alchemist had stats of 14/16/12/16/12/7 to start (he has 18 INT at level 5 now), and I've never felt like I was missing out on bombs or damage. But having 14 STR meant that I could step up and help out in melee when we needed it, as well as carry a utility belt overflowing with miscellaneous alchemical items and still be able to move at full speed.
Ok... where to start?
I've played The Toaster to level 10.2 so far... seems to work fine. I often have to defend him vs. players who just can't beleave I can have a PC with a 10 CON. Normally I would just ignore this but I have the time tonight... so..."10 STR means that after putting on a chain shirt, some clothes, and your alchemy crafting kit, you're already in medium encumbrance."
Chain shirt limits you to a DEX AC bonus of 4... The only mutigen he has ever used is DEX - which means DEX will top out fast. As he often uses a Reduce Person Extract (plus 2 to hit and AC), he will have a DEX of 22 before Belt boosters. SO... No chain shirt till he could afford the Mithril Shirt. Right there is 10 lbs - which is the difference between a 10 and a 12 strength. (and The Toaster is +1 or +2 or even +3 better AC). How do you work it? I mean, if you boost your DEX with a Mutigen, you only get a +1 to AC? BUT... I've switched The Toasters armor over to Mistmail anyway (20% miss chance)- or if I'm running with a Wizard I get him to cast Mage Armor (got a Pearl of Power for that) so I can count all my DEX.
"10 CON is just terrifying... " I'm sorry you feel that way. I've actually not found it ever to be a problem. Must be a difference in our play styles. And boosting the CON to 12 would cost 3 build points (to buy a 14 on an elf) and if I were really worried about it I'd just buy a Belt of CON for 4K. The only thing I can really say is.... I've never lost a PC in PFS - I have 11 currently active and I've played all but 6 of the scenarios and many mods. All my PCs have 10 or 12 CONs. OH! and in reply to your comment "Good luck the first time you get hit with a claw/claw/bite routine", my reply would be the comment "Don't get hit."
"10 WIS means your Will saves will be in the tank." This one is almost correct... you do sort of miss something though. "Have fun sleeping..." Elf remember? No sleeping... "killing your teammates" hasn't happened yet - but The Toaster looks like a wizard, so doesn't often get dominated, "getting channeled to death." Channels hurt! Neg Channel Toaster and he has to reply with Bombs.
a INT of 16 vers. a 20?
+2 bombs, +2 on all damage, an extra 4th level and 1st level extract, and a save DC of 16 vs. 14...
AND 2 extra skill points at each level, 2 extra languages, 2 extra on Craft Alchemy... it means he can take 10 to craft each type of alchemical items 2 levels earlier...
... but whatever....
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A friend and I have very similar alchemists that both are extremely strong. I have a tiefling (the racial class bonus is also something you should consider), and he had a half elf (paragon surge is insanely versatile.) In all honesty, those are the two things to consider when trying to maximize value between strongly suited races as far as I am concerned.
Explosive bomb question: only applies to explosive bombs themselves.
Looks good. Honestly, my only changes would be to forget Cognatogen (if that is the focus of the character, I'd go with the mindchemist archetype instead) and use your mutagen to bump your Dex instead. With 3/4 BAB you are bound to miss more with archery (or STR with an adaptive bow if the bad guy is easy to hit). Plus, if you are drinking a cognatogen for INT, then you are lowering STR, and that lowers bow damage.
Look into the Explosive Missile discovery to replace Cognatogen. It really cranks up the damage for grenadiers! Lets you shoot bombs at 110' away! :P
Yes, that Explosive Missile is really nice. If I use a Composite bow, do I also still get strength damage on top of the bomb damage? I'm assuming the bomb damage already replaces the damage from the arrow.
@Sitri
I went with the Tiefling. One of the main reasons (although not only) I did so was because of the additional bomb damage for the favored class option.
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Yes, that Explosive Missile is really nice. If I use a Composite bow, do I also still get strength damage on top of the bomb damage? I'm assuming the bomb damage already replaces the damage from the arrow.
Actually, you get the full schtik. You get arrow damage + STR damage + bomb damage.
Now, compound that with a Grenadier level 2 ability. You could load up an arrow with a bomb AND an acid flask, or alchemist's fire... (or both if you have a hybridization funnel).
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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OH! and in reply to your comment "Good luck the first time you get hit with a claw/claw/bite routine", my reply would be the comment "Don't get hit."
How do you just "don't get hit"? I tried asking nicely, but it didn't go over well. I've gotten hit with two crits in the surprise round, and if I had 10 CON instead of 12, I would have been dead. I've taken a full-attack in the first round before I even had a turn, and if I'd had 10 CON instead of 14, I would have been dead instead of still standing at 1 point (it still ended up being a TPK, but whatever). So other than cowardice, what's the secret to not getting hit?
I don't mean to be confrontational; obviously it's been working for you, but you're a much more experience player, and it sounds like you've been incredibly lucky to boot. I certainly wouldn't suggest that a relatively new player walk around with 10 CON, especially in Season 4.
Yes, that Explosive Missile is really nice. If I use a Composite bow, do I also still get strength damage on top of the bomb damage? I'm assuming the bomb damage already replaces the damage from the arrow.Actually, you get the full schtik. You get arrow damage + STR damage + bomb damage.
Now, compound that with a Grenadier level 2 ability. You could load up an arrow with a bomb AND an acid flask, or alchemist's fire... (or both if you have a hybridization funnel).
Oh, that's great in regards to it all stacking like that, especially in using that hybridization funnel, that will be an early pick-up for me.
I did decide to tank my Charisma down to a 6 (lower it to 8, then with the -2 Tiefling modifier) to give myself a 14 STR.
However, the more I think about it, should I flip my STR and CON scores, giving myself a CON of 14 and STR of a 12?
I'm thinking having that extra HP a level will be good, as well as a higher Fortitude save, but I do like the extra +1 to damage when I would buy an eventual Composite Longbow as well as a higher carrying capacity.
What do you think?
Unless you take a good CON, take Toughness or put your favored class bonus towards HP, I feel the Alchemist is a bit too squishy for my taste in regards to melee. After dying twice in a short amount of time and almost dying in a couple other scenarios, I am now a bit more conservative. :)
General question to anyone, for the 1st level ability for the Grenadier (Martial Weapon Proficency), it indicates it replaces Brew Potion. Since Extra Bombs is the replacement of Brew Potion in Society, I assume Extra Bombs are replaced, instead?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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General question to anyone, for the 1st level ability for the Grenadier (Martial Weapon Proficency), it indicates it replaces Brew Potion. Since Extra Bombs is the replacement of Brew Potion in Society, I assume Extra Bombs are replaced, instead?
That's correct. So the archetype that specializes in bombs actually gets fewer bombs than normal.
Yes, that's what I was afraid of.
Thank you.
Oh, I wasn’t complaining at all! I do like the fact I can ‘attach’ alchemical items to my ranged attacks and especially how it stacks with my bow and strength damage (although of course you lose the benefit if hitting a touch AC).
I am actually really looking forward to trying out my Alchemist, I think he’s going to be a lot of fun.
Completely on a separate note, I don’t have the PFS Organized Guide in front of me, but from what I understand you do not get credit for scenarios even with different characters.
Does ‘no credit’ mean for all aspects? I know you do not get the EXP point, but what about PA and gold? Nothing on all?
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OH! and in reply to your comment "Good luck the first time you get hit with a claw/claw/bite routine", my reply would be the community nt "Don't get hit."How do you just "don't get hit"? I tried asking nicely, but it didn't go over well. I've gotten hit with two crits in the surprise round, and if I had 10 CON instead of 12, I would have been dead. I've taken a full-attack in the first round before I even had a turn, and if I'd had 10 CON instead of 14, I would have been dead instead of still standing at 1 point (it still ended up being a TPK, but whatever). So other than cowardice, what's the secret to not getting hit?
First some gms make mistakes and let monsters full attack in the surprise round.
As far as not getting hit, for bombers stand in the middle of the party or use stealth. For melee make sure to pump Ac. For example my level 2 bomber has a 19 Ac unbuffed and a 25 buffed with reduce person and shield. This is with no magic items.
With that said I agree melee alchemists should be having a 14 or so con. Bombers can fly with a 10 or 12 con.
As for carrying capacity, just use ant haul and a haversack. By level 5 a small creature with strength 7 can carry 51 pounds for 10 hours no problem.
As for carrying capacity, just use ant haul and a haversack. By level 5 a small creature with strength 7 can carry 51 pounds for 10 hours no problem.
Yes, Ant Haul is a nice spell, but then that is an extract used for carrying capacity instead of something (I feel is) more valuable like Shield, (multiple) Cure Light Wounds, True Strike or Targeted Bomb Admixture.
At mid-levels, when you have more extracts per level, it is more viable.
But I think you answered my question on whether I should go with a 14 STR and 12 CON or vice-versa. I am definitely more of the ‘bomber’ Alchemist (instead of melee) so I think I will stay with the 14 STR and 12 CON.
Thanks.
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As for carrying capacity, just use ant haul and a haversack. By level 5 a small creature with strength 7 can carry 51 pounds for 10 hours no problem.
Yes, Ant Haul is a nice spell, but then that is an extract used for carrying capacity instead of something (I feel is) more valuable like Shield, (multiple) Cure Light Wounds, True Strike or Targeted Bomb Admixture.
At mid-levels, when you have more extracts per level, it is more viable.
But I think you answered my question on whether I should go with a 14 STR and 12 CON or vice-versa. I am definitely more of the ‘bomber’ Alchemist (instead of melee) so I think I will stay with the 14 STR and 12 CON.
Thanks.
I really do not understand this...
You are planning to be less of a melee guy, so you are going with a higher STR?Ok....
I sent a long PM to RainyDayNinja - and figured I wouldn't come back to this thread - but then I guess I missed my will save. So here I am again. I'll spoiler a copy of my note to 'Ninja, perhaps you can pick a little out of it.
Wall of Text alert! Proceed at own risk!
Hay Ninja!
This is in reply to the post: I don't figure you were being confrontational - you haven't once told me I'm stupid or "playing the game wrong"! ;)
Text of posts above
[i]The Toaster wrote:
OH! and in reply to your comment "Good luck the first time you get hit with a claw/claw/bite routine", my reply would be the comment "Don't get hit."
RainyDayNinja wrote:
How do you just "don't get hit"? I tried asking nicely, but it didn't go over well. I've gotten hit with two crits in the surprise round, and if I had 10 CON instead of 12, I would have been dead. I've taken a full-attack in the first round before I even had a turn, and if I'd had 10 CON instead of 14, I would have been dead instead of still standing at 1 point (it still ended up being a TPK, but whatever). So other than cowardice, what's the secret to not getting hit?
I don't mean to be confrontational; obviously it's been working for you, but you're a much more experience player, and it sounds like you've been incredibly lucky to boot. I certainly wouldn't suggest that a relatively new player walk around with 10 CON, especially in Season 4.
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Partly the "don't get hit" part is about play style. AC is more important than HP. Going before the guy swinging on you is more important than HP. Both of these are traced to DEX at least partly. So I like DEX better than CON. To me, one point of AC is better than 1 HP per level... If I get hit, the monster does LOTS of HP, often more than 1HP per level - so if I get hit one time less... that's worth 1 HP per level (or more, as I don't have to heal it). The monster will normally do more in one hit than one HP per level. And if it never even got to swing? (because I went first and I moved, or it died). Just Cream.
Some minor examples of differences in play style, how to "not get hit":
High Perception: reduces the delay during surprize rounds (I also have "Scout" PCs that are partly Diviner Wiz, so they always go in a surprize round, high INIT means they go first in the surprise round).
High Init: High Dex, Traits, Feats, Magic items (an Ioun stone for 400gp to boost it by 1 for example). Init above 10 are kind normal in my PCs - The Toaster for example has an 8 to 11 (or more) INIT depending on Mutigen and spells - He's had a 13 for a resent encounter.
Move! When facing a moster with more than one attack - move away and act. One AOO, followed by one attack is much better than a Claw/Claw/Bite. But it's always a good idea to shift around some anyway - to many people just push thier figure into contact and never move again until the monster or the PC is dead.
After about 5th level - try to pick up a Miss Chance! The Toaster does it with Mistmail (20% miss - even for those crits!), or Blur spells, or Invisibility, or Displacement or just hiding (Stealth)... The Toaster has a 20+ Stealth, so he actually can snipe sometimes.
Play in a balanced party. I cannot stress this too much. I have a lot of choices in PC when I sit down at a table. I often play with one or more other players who I game with regularly (and 2 to 5 strangers)... So we have PCs that "flesh a table out". Look over a party before the game starts - and be sure you have all the basics covered. Got a meat shield? No? So maybe I'll run one of mine (some with a CON of 12, but they're Dwarf Clerics). AC 30+ and you have to get thru the Miss chances to get to them. (For Giamo, the monster would need first a Will save to swing, then suffers a 20% miss chance, then has to hit the 30+ AC... and then he's a cleric and can heal himself). If we do have a meat shield, then The Toaster will hand him Infusions to boost his effectiveness. Shield, Fly, Displacement, Blur, etc. all become self buffers. It is amazing to me how many people sit at a table as the third barbarian in the group and say: "what? no Cleric? Good thing I've got UMD for my healing wand!". This game is designed to be played in a group of mixed adventurers...
On the note of Shield PCs... My up and coming "Shield guy" is 5th level with an AC of 27 (25 flat footed). Before spells/buffs (it goes up from there). He rides a Dog (I actually say he is "a dog delivery system"), who has an AC of 26 most of the time (it goes up also). If pressed in combat he drinks a potion of Invisibility - and uses a wand of vanish on the Dog... so the monsters see the dog attack and vanish (50% miss chance). Each round it appears, attacks vs. flatfooted AC, and vanishes... That's the party meat shield. 50% miss chance and an AC of 25+ at 5th level. OH! and a CON of 12... cause I had to put the points someplace, and he already has a CHA of 18.
A long time ago, I figured that it was better to NOT get hit than to survive the hit. So that's what my PCs try to do... and it seems to be working for me. Like I said, I've not lost a PC personally, and I've only had a few die at my tables over the years, in almost ALL the scenarios (I haven't played 5 right now). Have I had close calls? yeap. Bunch. But in all those, extra HP would not have mattered, and if I had gotten hit more it would have killed the PC.
SO many times I have talked to Players who lament a death of a PC...
"Not enough HP."
"Dude, your guy has an AC of 9... for a front liner"
"Yeah, but you should see my damage output!"
This is a guy who runs a 'Glass Cannon' Barbarian. Really. I have played with him more than once. My Shield Cleric kept him up thru a very tough fight - at the end of it he commented that he had taken (and I had healed) more than 2 times his PCs total raging HP. He should have died twice. He's got LOTS of HP. So he likes to play at tables with me... go figure.
;)
Anyway - hope that answers your question a little...
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OH! and in reply to your comment "Good luck the first time you get hit with a claw/claw/bite routine", my reply would be the community nt "Don't get hit."How do you just "don't get hit"? I tried asking nicely, but it didn't go over well. I've gotten hit with two crits in the surprise round, and if I had 10 CON instead of 12, I would have been dead. I've taken a full-attack in the first round before I even had a turn, and if I'd had 10 CON instead of 14, I would have been dead instead of still standing at 1 point (it still ended up being a TPK, but whatever). So other than cowardice, what's the secret to not getting hit?
First some gms make mistakes and let monsters full attack in the surprise round.
As far as not getting hit, for bombers stand in the middle of the party or use stealth. For melee make sure to pump Ac. For example my level 2 bomber has a 19 Ac unbuffed and a 25 buffed with reduce person and shield. This is with no magic items.
With that said I agree melee alchemists should be having a 14 or so con. Bombers can fly with a 10 or 12 con.
As for carrying capacity, just use ant haul and a haversack. By level 5 a small creature with strength 7 can carry 51 pounds for 10 hours no problem.
Furious Kender... I think you get it.
"Don't get hit"!
;)
...19 Ac unbuffed and a 25 buffed... Let's see... 16 dex (+3), chain shirt (mithril) (+4), and maybe DEX Mutigen for +2? to get the 19?
then Reduce Person for +1 Size and +1 more DEX, and +4 for a Shield extract? to get the 25? Did I get that right?
I really do not understand this...
You are planning to be less of a melee guy, so you are going with a higher STR?Ok....
If someone had not read my most recent replies, especially with CRobledo, the confusion is understandable.
But I’ll detail it just so there is no more confusion. As you already know, I plan to go down the ranged route (even besides my bombs) for my Alchemist.
I have taken the Grenadier archetype, so at first 1st level I will be taking Composite Longbow as my Martial Weapon Proficiency. At 2nd level, you gain the ability to infuse melee weapons, or in my case, ammunition with offensive alchemical liquids or powders.
In my discussion with CRobledo, he indicated that the arrow damage, as well as even the STR bonus, stacks with the alchemical item infused to the arrow.
So finally, I decided make my STR a 14 instead of my CON as I will be attacking from range in any situation (bomb or bow), which is a bit less risky and therefore may allow me to have a lower CON. Also, the additional strength will be nice to add when using my eventual Composite Longbow +2 (strength).
Yes, I can see how someone might say instead of having a 14 STR I should have put it towards my DEX instead, but I want at least a 12 STR and putting 3 points (during my build) will not get me anything but a 15 DEX (17 with racial modifier) as I have a 14(16) right now. And I really don’t plan to raise my DEX, with the exception of magical items (my level increases will go towards INT).
Therefore, I’d rather put those three points towards a stat that will make a difference for me now, like STR or CON.
I hope that made it clearer. :)
Yes, I know. I wasn’t saying I could only infuse my bow, but I like to have an alternative to my bombs as there are only a limited number of them per day.
Also, if I have a target at a longer range it is a better option in using the bow instead of my bombs, which have a very short range increment.
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Furious Kender... I think you get it.
"Don't get hit"!
;)
...19 Ac unbuffed and a 25 buffed... Let's see... 16 dex (+3), chain shirt (mithril) (+4), and maybe DEX Mutigen for +2? to get the 19?
then Reduce Person for +1 Size and +1 more DEX, and +4 for a Shield extract? to get the 25? Did I get that right?
Close, my character is a crazy Wayang Mindchemist. 18 dex, 20 int, 11 con and yes this is a legal buy. So +4 dex, +1 size, +4 Mith chainshirt=19 unbuffed. Reduce person to make tiny sized bomber for +2 to AC and to hit. Shield for +4 makes a 25 AC. Both can be cast off a wand.
I really do not understand this...
You are planning to be less of a melee guy, so you are going with a higher STR?Ok....
In my discussion with CRobledo, he indicated that the arrow damage, as well as even the STR bonus, stacks with the alchemical item infused to the arrow.
So finally, I decided make my STR a 14 instead of my CON as I will be attacking from range in any situation (bomb or bow), which is a bit less risky and therefore may allow me to have a lower CON. Also, the additional strength will be nice to add when using my eventual Composite Longbow +2 (strength).
Just remember that longbows target AC. Splash weapons target touch. So the longbow damage will be higher when you hit, you just will hit a lot less. Also, grenadiers can only use Alchemical Weapon once per round, so you really aren't getting much if any dpr boost.
Just remember that longbows target AC. Splash weapons target touch. So the longbow damage will be higher when you hit, you just will hit a lot less. Also, grenadiers can only use Alchemical Weapon once per round, so you really aren't getting much if any dpr boost.
Yes, I know it is against normal AC than touch (I actually made reference to that in a post above). I’m not saying by any means I like shooting ranged over using my bombs, bombs are certainly much better. However, I only get so many of them a day and I like an alternate form of attack if I run out (of bombs). Also, as I said in my previous post, if the encounter distance is relatively far, it would be more beneficial to use my bow instead of my bombs that only have a 20’ range increment.
Grenadiers are pretty sweet but I feel like combining the free Martial Weapon Proficiency with Elven Proficiencies is a waste (unless you plan to go ECB/melee).
That's why my elf alchemist is a preservationist (well, that and getting to throw stirges at folks).
I agree with you, using the Grenadier Martial Weapon Proficiency with the elven proficiencies would be a waste. It's a good thing I'm playing a Tiefling. :)
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Hobbun - if all you are looking for in taking Grenadier is the LongComp Bow proficiency, why not just take the trait Hunter's Eye? It would mean you have to be Andoran Faction, so that might be an issue - but then I could see a real RP possibility here. Tiefling "freed" by Andorans, so joins the cause for freedom and all that. Anti-Cheliax and all that... or Anti-Slavery.
god Erastil as a youth, and you are a prodigy with a
bow. You do not take any penalties for the second range
increment when using a longbow or shortbow, and
you are always considered proficient with one of these
weapons (your choice).
It would give the advantages of no "penalties for the second range increment"... though I am not sure how often you would every use it. My 10th level Alchemist (bomber) has never had to resort to anything except splash weapons - and normally finishes a full adventure with several bombs left.
Throwing bombs 100 ft. only gives a -4 to hit, and most monster have a difference in Touch AC and normal AC of more than 4.
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Just remember that longbows target AC. Splash weapons target touch. So the longbow damage will be higher when you hit, you just will hit a lot less. Also, grenadiers can only use Alchemical Weapon once per round, so you really aren't getting much if any dpr boost.
Yes, I know it is against normal AC than touch (I actually made reference to that in a post above). I’m not saying by any means I like shooting ranged over using my bombs, bombs are certainly much better. However, I only get so many of them a day and I like an alternate form of attack if I run out (of bombs). Also, as I said in my previous post, if the encounter distance is relatively far, it would be more beneficial to use my bow instead of my bombs that only have a 20’ range increment.
It's pretty rare to start more than 100+movement feet away.
You can make Acid flasks for like 3.33gp. The 600gp it costs for a masterwork +2 str composite bow could buy nearly 200 acid flasks.
But yes, you're right that long range favors the bow.
wow Furious Kender, I didn't think to check out the Wayang!...
I gave away two Boons for them and traded away my last... guess I should have looked at them closer maybe? Thanks for the eye opener!
I had 5 or 6 of the boons, so I think half my characters are Eastern.
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I agree with you, using the Grenadier Martial Weapon Proficiency with the elven proficiencies would be a waste. It's a good thing I'm playing a Tiefling. :)Grenadiers are pretty sweet but I feel like combining the free Martial Weapon Proficiency with Elven Proficiencies is a waste (unless you plan to go ECB/melee).
That's why my elf alchemist is a preservationist (well, that and getting to throw stirges at folks).
Tieflings are also pretty darn cool for getting those alchemist's fires and acids out to apply to whichever martial weapon you pick more quickly (prehensile tail, if you didn't know for some reason).
I am a bit puzzled.
It seems there are many who support melee Alchemists for a back-up to their bomb throwing, but for a ranged Alchemist (besides bombs) it is not favored at all.
Believe me, I completely agree that bombs are infinitely superior to using a bow for an Alchemist, that was never a question. I just wanted the bow as an alternate form of attack if I ran out of bombs, or if the range was quite far.
Maybe I won’t run out of bombs and maybe I will rarely get into encounters at a long range, but I do think it is good to have as a back-up, and I favor ranged over melee, especially for the fact I am also taking the feats that coincide with my bombs (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot). I don’t understand why ranged is viewed as a sub-optimal choice if bombs are no longer an option for you?
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Hobbun, bows are a plenty good option for alchemists. Let's look at the facts... can you wear a darkwood buckler while carrying one? Yes. Do you have an "always ready" solution to ranged combat with no need to use your limited bombs per day? Yes. Can you use a bow to send an alchemist's fire 110+ feet away or, with the right discovery, the same for a bomb? Yes. Will you keep a hand free for all of your alchem-izing that can wear a cold iron spiked gauntlet? Yes. Do a lot of the feats that you are going to take for your bombs apply to your arrows, as well? Yes. I'm sure you get the idea.
You're doing fine by looking into a bow-alchemist.
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I am a bit puzzled.
It seems there are many who support melee Alchemists for a back-up to their bomb throwing, but for a ranged Alchemist (besides bombs) it is not favored at all.
Believe me, I completely agree that bombs are infinitely superior to using a bow for an Alchemist, that was never a question. I just wanted the bow as an alternate form of attack if I ran out of bombs, or if the range was quite far.
Maybe I won’t run out of bombs and maybe I will rarely get into encounters at a long range, but I do think it is good to have as a back-up, and I favor ranged over melee, especially for the fact I am also taking the feats that coincide with my bombs (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot). I don’t understand why ranged is viewed as a sub-optimal choice if bombs are no longer an option for you?
I think you may be misunderstanding. I was saying alchemical weapons are a decent back upfor a bomber. These are especially good for a mind chemist. Bows are a good back up for a grenades, but they aren't perfect.
Trying to mix ranged and melee tends to end poorly in my experience.