|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spellstrike allow a magus to make a free weapon attack to deliver a touch spell effectively combining weapon damage + spell effect.
Chill touch says "...You can use this melee touch attack up to
one time per level."
Does it means that a level 2 magus, using a longsword for exemple, could use a full attack action to swing at ennemy #1 with his longsword + chill touch effect and then again swining at ennemy #2 with longsword + chill touch effect?
sounds like a pretty awsome combo for a level 1 spell use, i must be mistaken.
I don't believe that this has been answered in FAQ. The general assumption is that as long as the magus has one or more charges of a touch spell held then anytime that he makes an attack with his melee weapon, because of the Spellstrike class ability it will deliver a charge of the spell on the attack.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
The caster being a magus really isn't even relevant to the question here, since any ol' caster can deliver touch spells through touches, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons.
In any case, the rules for touch spells say you get to deliver the charge and once you do, the spell's done. Chill touch provides a specific exception by stating that you can make multiple touches (deliverable by any of the usual means) instead of just one. What chill touch does *NOT* do is provide any exception to the rules of what action types are spent in order to make those (touch) attacks.
With any touch spell, the caster gets a (single) free action to attempt to deliver the charge in the same round that they cast it. If they miss (or in the case of chill touch, if they have charges left), they can hold the charge.
A caster with a held charge from a touch spell can make a touch attack as a standard action, or they can use whatever actions they have available to make unarmed strikes/natural attacks and any such attacks that are successful will deliver the held charge. Chill touch does not modify this.
So a 2nd-level caster can cast chill touch and deliver one charge as a free action. He still has a charge left (or two if he missed), but not enough actions to deliver them. On his next turn, he can spend actions as normal to deliver any held charges.
TLDR: You follow the normal rules for action costs of delivering touch spells unless a spell explicitly changes the action costs. Chill touch make no such change.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
But the spell is actually Charged into the weapon correct?
Not unless you can find a rule that says that somewhere. Otherwise, it works exactly as described in the CRB - if you touch anything, even accidentally, the spell discharges. This includes hitting with an unarmed strike or natural weapon (such as a claw).
Since it is a Free Action to Release the Charge if it is held in the weapon Couldn't he release it on each strike after the initial cast round?
Not sure what you mean by "free action to release the charge". On the round you cast a touch spell, you can make a touch attack as a free action, and if you successfully touch a target, then the spell discharges automatically (not a separate action).
On subsequent rounds (either holding the charge because you missed, couldn't reach a target on the turn you cast the spell, or you have multiple charges ala chill touch), you can make a new touch attack as a standard action (if successful, the spell discharges automatically, not as a separate action). Alternatively, you can make whatever unarmed strikes or natural attacks you could normally make, except that hitting with them will also discharge the held touch spell (again, not as a separate action).
So a 2nd-level draconic sorcerer could cast chill touch, hold the charge, and then on his next turn grow claws as a free action and full-attack to make two claw attacks. If either (or both) of those claw attacks hit, it/they would deal claw damage plus discharging a charge of chill touch. Two hits would let off both charges, while misses would result in held charges.
Given the current rulings on spell combat, I am seriously considering placing more emphasis on chill touch.
There is no longer a point in spamming cantrips for an extra attack once haste is available and chill touch is effective for 7+ hits by that point.
Not to mention that if the creature gets unlucky and fumbles its Fort save, it gets a point of STR drain.
A tangent question: Can a spell-storing weapon hold additional charges of a touch spell (like Chill Touch)? If so, that might be an interesting tactic.
|
Or frostbite, for that matter.
Yep. Rimed Frostbite + Haste has become very interesting.
The key point is: with the current ruling there are going to be a lot of scenarios where a level 7+ magus is better off not using one of his defining class features. Low level spells that were marginal at best are going to start seeing a lot more usage on higher level characters.
Lets follow this to its logical conclusion. Is there any reason a magus should not invest in two-weapon fighting and frostbite? Greater TWF + frostbite on a level 20 magus is 1d6+20 added to 7 attacks per round, on top of arcane strike and all other mods.
I'd have to say that the touch charge is not in a weapon. It is still stored in you (your hand, or wherever the charges are held).
I infer this from the fact that a Magus, upon missing a weapon attack while using Spellstrike, has the option the following round to still deliver the held spell through a touch rather than using his weapon.
|
|
The charge is not invested in the weapon, but every attack you hit with will discharge a charge. This can be the initial weapon you used, a different weapon, or an unarmed attack/natural weapon.
You can spellstrike as many times per round as you have charges and hit an opponent with a weapon.
If you cast a spell, any remaining charges go away.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
If you're holding a charge, then any time you hit with a valid delivery method (touch, unarmed strike, natural weapon, or a magus' normal weapon), you deliver a charge.
Spellstrike is not something you activate, and does not "move" the spell around. You could try to deliver your held charge via your weapon a couple of times and miss (discovering the foe has a high AC) and then decide next turn to instead try doing normal touches.
Lets follow this to its logical conclusion. Is there any reason a magus should not invest in two-weapon fighting and frostbite? Greater TWF + frostbite on a level 20 magus is 1d6+20 added to 7 attacks per round, on top of arcane strike and all other mods.
I'm not sure that you can combine two weapon fighting and spell combat. Regardless of if it is possible or not I probably would not recommend it. You'd be taking -4 on every attack with a 3/4 bab character. You might get 7 attacks but you'd be missing on most of them unless you've got a way of really lowering an enemies ac (see below).
Yep. Rimed Frostbite + Haste has become very interesting.The key point is: with the current ruling there are going to be a lot of scenarios where a level 7+ magus is better off not using one of his defining class features. Low level spells that were marginal at best are going to start seeing a lot more usage on higher level characters.
Don't stop with rimed. Grab enforcer and you can intimidate with your touch attack. Since you'll be spamming low level spells (pearls of power FTW) take a 3 level dip in to rogue (thug) to boost your intimidate and add sicken. Now pick up shatter defenses and you'll can make your opponent flat footed too.
Here's a character I created built around this idea, I specifically wanted the ranged legerdemain ability so I picked up some levels in Arcane trickster. Replacing them with magus levels would be stronger as it would boost your BAB by 1 and advance your class abilities:
CN Magus 12 (mordant spire defender) /Rogue 4 (thug)/ Arcane Trickster 4
Starting Stats:
Str: 10 Dex: 18 Con: 12 Int: 16 Wis: 10 Cha: 10
Traits- Magical knack, Reactionary
1 Magus - Combat expertise, Dodge, Weapon finesse, Spell Combat, Arcane Pool
2 Rogue - Frightening, SA 1d6
3 Magus - Spellstrike, Enforcer
4 Rogue - Evasion, Weapon training talent: rapier
5 Magus - Wand Wielder arcana,Skill focus: intimidate
6 Rogue - Brutal beating, SA 2d6
7 Magus - Arcane Augmentation, Rime Spell
8 Magus - Dazzling display
9 Arcane trickster- Ranged legerdemain, Shatter defenses
10 Arcane trickster-SA 3d6
11 Arcane trickster-Impromptu sneak attack 1/day, arcane strike
12 Arcane trickster- SA 4d6
13-20 Magus
In Combat:
Damage: We've got spellstrike and sneak attack adding damage. Using Spell combat and Frostbite we get to make a touch attack that does 1d6+ (level-1) nonlethal damage. It will also add fatigue, and give us a chance to add shaken. If it's a sneak attack it can also add sicken. And if it's rimed than entangled. Since it makes an opponent shaken shatter defenses kicks in and our weapon attacks get SA damage. With the damage from spellstrike,sneak attack,agile weapon,enhancement bonuses, spell storing weapon and critical hits you should be doing very well. Of course the HP damage is really only the icing on the cake. The best thing about this build is you get to stack debuffs while attacking. Shaken, Sickened, Fatigued, Entagled and flat footed to your attacks off a normal full attack routine. Solid.
Accuracy: This is the weakest part of the build. You've got a base BAB of 13 at level 20. That sucks. You do get bonuses from your arcane pool which helps. But you also take -2 for spell combat which hurts. Your first attack should be a touch attack from frostbite, the extra weapon damage isn't worth the miss chance. For the others you'll almost always be making the attack against a flat footed ac because of shatter defenses. You can grab one of the magus arcanas to boost your accuracy as well. All in all if you sink some decent money in to your weapon and use your arcanas wisely I expect you'll be hitting more often than your average rogue even if you're not flanking. If you are flanking and have a bard in the party you should be able to crank out a ton of hits.
Defenses: You're stuck using light armor but you have the dex to max it out so that's not too bad. You've got dodge and combat expertise to add to your ac if you need to as well. Your saves are strong across the board 10/9/11 without modifiers. You've got a high dex and evasion for extra reflex goodness. Your best defense however is your debuffing attacks. Once you hit a guy and make him shaken, sickened, fatigued, and entangled he will be making attacks at a -7 to -9 depending on if he's str or dex based. He also can't make AOOs against you unless he has combat reflexes.
Spells: You're light on spells. But the good news is that a few low level ones are all you really need. Frostbite, Chill touch and Elemental touch will be staples since you can cast them once and get spellstrike on all of your weapon attacks. Vanish is useful for both offense and defense (attack and use spell combat to vanish after for defense, then next round attack from invisibility for the bonus). True strike helps if you're having accuracy issues. It also gives you the option of grabbing a whip (proficient from the spire magus archetype) and making a ranged trip or disarm at +20. That trick should last well in to the mid levels and costs no feat investment unlike a normal trip build. Wand Wielder and pearls of power will extend your spells per day cheaply and will allow you to use your higher level slots for situations where your normal plan of attack doesn't work (enemy is immune to SA or fear)
Out of combat: Skill monkey extraordinaire. With a high int score giving skill ranks and a high dex &int giving bonuses this build excels at most skills and has more than enough points to go around.
|
|
I'm not sure that you can combine two weapon fighting and spell combat. Regardless of if it is possible or not I probably would not recommend it. You'd be taking -4 on every attack with a 3/4 bab character. You might get 7 attacks but you'd be missing on most of them unless you've got a way of really lowering an enemies ac (see below).
I'm not talking about combining. I'm talking about forgoing spell combat after the opening round and using Haste + TWF.
I'm not talking about combining. I'm talking about forgoing spell combat after the opening round and using Haste + TWF.
I was torn on this idea. When you've got extra damage like frostbite added to every attack more attacks sound good, but the decreased accuracy caused by TWF and the cost of enchanting two weapons is bad. So i did some quick and dirty math:
Assumptions
Standard- Dervish dance, weapon finesse, arcane strike,weapon focus weapon specialization . +5 weapon
TWF- weapon finesse, arcane strike, TWF, ITWF, GTWF. One +3 agile kukri, one +2 agile kukri.
Same amount invested in weapons, same number of feats taken. Both are dex based and we'll say they have a 26 for a +8
For purposes of math I'm going to say the first attack starts at 70% to hit before weapon enhancement bonuses or twf penalties. We are looking at round 2 of combat, the party wizard has already cast haste and you've already cast frostbite and used 4 charges in the last round.
Standard:
attack 1 1d6 (weapon)+8 (dex)+5 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 2 (WS)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =47 * 100% (base to hit and +5 from weapon)= 47
attack 2 1d6 (weapon)+8 (dex)+5 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 2 (WS)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =47 * 100% (base to hit and +5 from weapon)= 47
attack 3 1d6 (weapon)+8 (dex)+5 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+2 (WS)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =47 * 80% (base to hit and +5 from weapon)= 38
attack 4 1d6 (weapon)+8 (dex)+5 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+2 (WS)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =47 * 55% (base to hit and +5 from weapon)= 26
Total= 158
Charges of frostbite remaining= 12 (3 more rounds of the same routine)
TWF:
attack 1 1d4 (weapon)+8 (dex)+3 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =44 * 75% (base to hit, TWF penalty and +3 from weapon)= 33
attack 2 1d4 (weapon)+8 (dex)+3 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =44 * 75% (base to hit, TWF penalty and +3 from weapon)= 33
attack 3 1d4 (weapon)+8 (dex)+2 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =43 * 70% (base to hit, TWF penalty and +2 from weapon)= 30
attack 4 1d4 (weapon)+8 (dex)+3 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =44 * 50% (base to hit, TWF penalty and +3 from weapon)= 22
attack 5 1d4 (weapon)+8 (dex)+2 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =43 * 45% (base to hit, TWF penalty and +2 from weapon)= 19
attack 6 1d4 (weapon)+8 (dex)+3 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =44 * 25% (base to hit, TWF penalty and +3 from weapon)= 11
attack 7 1d4 (weapon)+8 (dex)+2 (weapon)+5 (arcane strike)+ 1d6+20 (frostbite) =43 * 20% (base to hit, TWF penalty and +2 from weapon)= 9
total=157
Charges of frostbite remaining =9 (1 round of same routine with 2 left over)
Long and short of it. TWF does not give you an advantage over the one weapon build on full attacks and it would be worse on standard spell combat rounds and standard attacks. I'm sure you could do a full build and change the numbers a bit but I don't think it's worth the investment unless it's a concept you really wanted to play.
As it seems everyone in this thread is aware, the most recent errata on Spell Combat says that Haste does not grant a magus an extra attack. For those that feel this is a bit unfair, here is a possible option:
Words of Power Accelerate grants an additional move action per round as a level 2 spell. Use of this spell isn't a new idea, but it should be revisited due to the errata. In light of that, Accelerate now seems better for a magus than Haste. This additional move action could allow positioning that facilitates Spell Combat with Spell Strike every turn. This would probably end up being a far greater number of attacks per combat than Haste would have granted. Note that you don't have the other bonus effects of Haste, but you can trade that move action in for another attack, which would bring your count up to what most magi were taking before the Spell Combat errata, and it is still legal. Since Accelerate does not have a "no double dipping" clause, it would even stack with Haste by RAW.
Getting Accelerate as a Word of Power is going to be easy enough if you have a feat to spare, but that's not the only way to gain the effect. Accepting Accelerate as a separate spell effect, you could research a spell that does the same thing but is not a Word of Power. This is fully supported by the core rule book, but subject to DM approval. The process just takes in game time and money, but if starting above level 4 then you could possibly have this done before the game begins.
Thoughts?
|
I'm not talking about combining. I'm talking about forgoing spell combat after the opening round and using Haste + TWF.
I was torn on this idea. When you've got extra damage like frostbite added to every attack more attacks sound good, but the decreased accuracy caused by TWF and the cost of enchanting two weapons is bad. So i did some quick and dirty math:
** spoiler omitted **...
Your numbers make sense but add this option to the scenario and look at it again.
Your opponent is a typical HIGH AC opponent and you need 13-15 or better on the die to hit. Instead of using your weapon to attack you drop it and just use your hands to TWF with touch attacks.Remember the average magus is just a delivery system for spell damage, the weapons themselves are nearly inconsequential.
How does the math state the hit/damage come out then?
Can you TWF with touch attacks? I didn't think that would work. I know you can with unarmed strikes, but those are different from touch attacks.
|
Or frostbite, for that matter.Yep. Rimed Frostbite + Haste has become very interesting.
The key point is: with the current ruling there are going to be a lot of scenarios where a level 7+ magus is better off not using one of his defining class features. Low level spells that were marginal at best are going to start seeing a lot more usage on higher level characters.
Lets follow this to its logical conclusion. Is there any reason a magus should not invest in two-weapon fighting and frostbite? Greater TWF + frostbite on a level 20 magus is 1d6+20 added to 7 attacks per round, on top of arcane strike and all other mods.
Yes, grabbing another weapon with his secondary hand discharge the held charge:
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon)with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Normal is that you touch anything new with any of your hands and you discharge a held charge.
So if you draw a new weapon you discharge a held charge against it.It can work is you had a spiked gauntlet on your casting hand before casting the spell, as touching your already worn spiked gauntlet don't discharge held charges.
|
|
I'm not talking about combining. I'm talking about forgoing spell combat after the opening round and using Haste + TWF.
I was torn on this idea. When you've got extra damage like frostbite added to every attack more attacks sound good, but the decreased accuracy caused by TWF and the cost of enchanting two weapons is bad. So i did some quick and dirty math:
Standard- Dervish dance, weapon finesse, arcane strike,weapon focus weapon specialization . +5 weapon
TWF- weapon finesse, arcane strike, TWF, ITWF, GTWF. One +3 agile kukri, one +2 agile kukri.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
A kukri isn't a scimitar.
You can't use Dervish dance with two weapon fighting, you can't carry a weapon or shield in your off hand.|
|
As it seems everyone in this thread is aware, the most recent errata on Spell Combat says that Haste does not grant a magus an extra attack. For those that feel this is a bit unfair, here is a possible option:
Words of Power Accelerate grants an additional move action per round as a level 2 spell. Use of this spell isn't a new idea, but it should be revisited due to the errata. In light of that, Accelerate now seems better for a magus than Haste. This additional move action could allow positioning that facilitates Spell Combat with Spell Strike every turn. This would probably end up being a far greater number of attacks per combat than Haste would have granted. Note that you don't have the other bonus effects of Haste, but you can trade that move action in for another attack, which would bring your count up to what most magi were taking before the Spell Combat errata, and it is still legal. Since Accelerate does not have a "no double dipping" clause, it would even stack with Haste by RAW.
Getting Accelerate as a Word of Power is going to be easy enough if you have a feat to spare, but that's not the only way to gain the effect. Accepting Accelerate as a separate spell effect, you could research a spell that does the same thing but is not a Word of Power. This is fully supported by the core rule book, but subject to DM approval. The process just takes in game time and money, but if starting above level 4 then you could possibly have this done before the game begins.
Thoughts?
Don't work.
Accelerate (Time)
School transmutation; Level alchemist 2, bard 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions selected
The target of a wordspell with this effect word can take one additional move action each turn. This move action can come before, after, or between other actions, but not during a full-round action.
Spell combat is a full round action.
full attack is a full round action.Both can't be used with accelerate.
You can't trade a movement action for a attack action.
|
|
Normal is that you touch anything new with any of your hands and you discharge a held charge.
So if you draw a new weapon you discharge a held charge against it.
Incorrect. The normal condition is altered by spellstrike.
A magus can touch any weapon and can change weapons after casting a touch spell without discharging his held charge.
Spell combat is a full round action.
full attack is a full round action.
Both can't be used with accelerate.
You can't trade a movement action for a attack action.
Accelerate grants an additional move action. It allows you to take a move action and a full round action (defined as move + standard).
The target of a wordspell with this effect word can take one additional move action each turn. This move action can come before, after, or between other actions, but not during a full-round action.
Boost: If the target takes a full-attack action, it can, instead of taking an extra move action, make one additional attack at its highest attack bonus.
|
|
Normal is that you touch anything new with any of your hands and you discharge a held charge.
So if you draw a new weapon you discharge a held charge against it.
Incorrect. The normal condition is altered by spellstrike.
A magus can touch any weapon and can change weapons after casting a touch spell without discharging his held charge.
Read the FAQ I cited.
It is very clear that the exceptions is only for the hand that was holding your one handed weapon when you did cast the spell.|
|
Spell combat is a full round action.
full attack is a full round action.
Both can't be used with accelerate.
You can't trade a movement action for a attack action.Accelerate grants an additional move action. It allows you to take a move action and a full round action (defined as move + standard).
The target of a wordspell with this effect word can take one additional move action each turn. This move action can come before, after, or between other actions, but not during a full-round action.
Boost: If the target takes a full-attack action, it can, instead of taking an extra move action, make one additional attack at its highest attack bonus.
I stand corrected.
So it is better than haste by a wide margin. Wonderful. [roll eyes]One more reason to throw away that section of the book.
|
|
At worst: the FAQ could be interpreted as meaning held charges were hand specific.
However:
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
Intention is very clearly stated.
I'm not sure that I would agree that the FAQ is that restrictive. Basically that would mean that Spellstrike is somehow an 'intelligent' ability.
What exactly is the functional difference between, say, dropping your scimitar with a held charge, then picking it back up (which the discussion leading to the FAQ says is perfectly valid) and instead drawing a different scimitar from the sheath at your hip? Somehow the touch spell 'knows' that this is a difference weapon, and so the spell discharges? Doesn't really make sense to me.
Don't work.
Accelerate (Time)
... This move action can come before, after, or between other actions, but not during a full-round action.
I disagree with your interpretation which seems to state that this spell has no effect when used with a full round action. Typically, yes, a full round action takes up all your effort, but then a standard round only lets you make one move action unless you give up your standard action. This gives you an additional move beyond that. By that interpretation, you can use the bonus move action in the same round, just not between attacks in a full attack or spell combat. I believe this was added to differentiate this movement from other movement that is expressly allowed during a full round action, such as the 5 foot step: "You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round." This leaves you the options to take the additional movement before or after your full round action, because you can not do it during.
Normal is that you touch anything new with any of your hands and you discharge a held charge.
So if you draw a new weapon you discharge a held charge against it.
Incorrect. The normal condition is altered by spellstrike.
A magus can touch any weapon and can change weapons after casting a touch spell without discharging his held charge.
Read the FAQ I cited.
It is very clear that the exceptions is only for the hand that was holding your one handed weapon when you did cast the spell.
Since when is a held-charge in a specific hand? Any unarmed attack or natural attack can deliver a held touch spell. A magus who had claws, bite, IUS, and a sword, could cast a touch spell, and attack with any one of those, and still deliver the spell though it.
|
|
Since when is a held-charge in a specific hand? Any unarmed attack or natural attack can deliver a held touch spell. A magus who had claws, bite, IUS, and a sword, could cast a touch spell, and attack with any one of those, and still deliver the spell though it.Normal is that you touch anything new with any of your hands and you discharge a held charge.
So if you draw a new weapon you discharge a held charge against it.
Incorrect. The normal condition is altered by spellstrike.
A magus can touch any weapon and can change weapons after casting a touch spell without discharging his held charge.
Read the FAQ I cited.
It is very clear that the exceptions is only for the hand that was holding your one handed weapon when you did cast the spell.
Since the FAQ specifically states it is.
Here is the relevant entry from that Faq
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
This does indicate that spellstrike specifically moves a held charge to designated hand, with the wonderful ability to now touch other things while holding a charge WITHOUT discharging that spell.
This is most likely an unintended result of the language they used but as it stands now, only the hand designated by spellstrike has the chance to discharge a spell.
The FAQ doesn't state it is fixed to his hand. In fact, they say "still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster."
Since a normal spellcaster can cast a spell, attempt to deliver with a touch attack, miss, then attack with a natural attack (bite) and deliver it, the magus can too.
I see the FAQ as stating that because of the spellstrike ability, a magus is able to touch weapons without discharging a held spell into the weapon. That is it.
The "hand" references are examples, and not requirements of holding a charge.
|
|
I'm not sure that I would agree that the FAQ is that restrictive. Basically that would mean that Spellstrike is somehow an 'intelligent' ability.
What exactly is the functional difference between, say, dropping your scimitar with a held charge, then picking it back up (which the discussion leading to the FAQ says is perfectly valid) and instead drawing a different scimitar from the sheath at your hip? Somehow the touch spell 'knows' that this is a difference weapon, and so the spell discharges? Doesn't really make sense to me.
You can pick up another weapon, but only with the same hand that held a weapon when you did cast the spell using spell combat.
Normal: Held charges would discharge when you touch anything that you weren't touching before with that same limb.
Feet are a exception, but it can be rationalized saying that the whole world is "an item" and that you were touching it before with them.
Spell strike: the hand that held the weapon when you did cast the spell can touch any weapon and not discharge the spell. But it you any item that it isn't a weapon it discharge.
I read it a an exception for that hand only. You will still discharge the spell if you pick up a weapon in your other hand.
The whole FAQ:
Magus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/07/12
With the bolder part saying that "the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat" and the very specific exception for the hand that is holding the weapon when he use spellstrike I think that the exception is only for one hand and and that specifically hand.
At worst: the FAQ could be interpreted as meaning held charges were hand specific.
However:
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.Intention is very clearly stated.
Exactly, you get the ability to pick up weapons with one hand, and that is better than what the normal rule about held charges.
You don't get the ability to pick up a weapon in a second hand (or third, fourth, nth hand if you have them).
Diego, would a hexcrafter magus with the prehensile hair hex still be able to use their hair to deliver a held touch spell?
Magus casts shocking grasp for example. No weapons are held in hand. Where is the charge held? What if he draws a dagger with his left hand. Is the charge now only in his left hand? Or is his left hand the only hand he can draw weapons without discharging?
If he drops the dagger, and instead draws a longsword, still in his left hand, he can still deliver the shocking grasp through the longsword if he made an attack, right?
Ok, what if he drops that longsword, and instead draws a shortsword with his right hand? Now you think the spell discharges into the shortsword? Why?
Instead of drawing the shortsword, what if he attacks with his prehensile hair? If he is successful, he can deliver the held spell through his hair instead, right?
Or even better, if he has IUS, he could make an unarmed strike using his right hand, and deliver the held spell through that successful attack too. Why can he do all of this, but not pick up a weapon in his right hand to spellstrike through?
What if he already had a weapon (cestus/brass knuckles/gauntlet) on his right hand? It wouldn't prevent him from casting a spell, holding the charge, and in later rounds trying to spellstrike.
Could a magus with a longsword in right hand, and brass knuckles on his left hand, cast chill touch (making the concentration check for brass knuckles) and hold the charge. Then, when combat starts, TWF with his longsword & brass knuckles, and deliver a charge with each successful hit?
Since either weapon can deliver the spellstrike, could he now drop the longsword, or brass knuckles, and pick up different weapons in that hand? Since both hands had weapons at the time of casting, this fits your logic.
That FAQ quote also refers to "still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster". I expect the "hand" references are just fluff, since a normal spellcaster doesn't hold the charge in their hand.
If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
So a "normal spellcaster" can transmit the spell through their hand, a bite, a kick, etc. So can a Magus, except the Magus can also transmit it through a weapon. Why then does the FAQ mention "holding the charge in his hand" and associate it with a "normal spellcaster" then? I'm sticking with fluff, because otherwise, the rules have changed so that all "normal spellcasters" must transmit their touch attack through the same hand they initially intended for the attack to be used.
And then they'd also be able to shake someone's hand, or do whatever they like, with their other hand without losing the spell.
to answer the original question: yes.
if a magus had say 4 attacks a round he could (using spell combat and spell strike) cast chill touch, make a free attack using his weapon, then expend a charge of chill touch with each of his following 4 normal attacks, effectively getting 5 spell strikes in 1 round and possibly doing 5 points of ability score damage. also, if the magus had remaining charges of chill touch after that round that he cast chill touch using spell combat, he could, on his next round, use the remainder of them (we'll say 2 for simplicity's sake) on his first two attacks, get two more with no spell effect, then cast it again as the end and get an additional free attack with the newly charged chill touch.
what he CANNOT do, is cast chill touch and use only SOME of his charges, then cast another spell and use it without losing the remaining charged of chill touch.
That FAQ quote also refers to "still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster". I expect the "hand" references are just fluff, since a normal spellcaster doesn't hold the charge in their hand.
If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.So a "normal spellcaster" can transmit the spell through their hand, a bite, a kick, etc. So can a Magus, except the Magus can also transmit it through a weapon. Why then does the FAQ mention "holding the charge in his hand" and associate it with a "normal spellcaster" then? I'm sticking with fluff, because otherwise, the rules have changed so that all "normal spellcasters" must transmit their touch attack through the same hand they initially intended for the attack to be used.
And then they'd also be able to shake someone's hand, or do whatever they like, with their other hand without losing the spell.
the only thing spellstrike allows a magus to do that a normal caster cannot, is touch his weapon without discharging the spell. so whereas a wizard cannot pick up a weapon or any other object with the hand holding the charge, the magus can pick up a weapon and instead of the spell being discharged, it is extended to the weapon so that it can be discharded through it. if the magus drops that weapon, the charge remains in his hand though.
Rather than say "in his hand" I would like to see the FAQ changed to just state that the "charge is held". It keeps terms the same "holding the charge" but doesn't become confusing when dealing with natural attacks, or trying to figure out if a charge is assigned to a specific hand.
A kukri isn't a scimitar.
You can't use Dervish dance with two weapon fighting, you can't carry a weapon or shield in your off hand.
That's why the TWF build used the agile enchantment instead. Which also lowers the to hit enchantments on those items further.
Can you TWF with touch attacks? I didn't think that would work. I know you can with unarmed strikes, but those are different from touch attacks.
I'd have to search further but I am pretty sure one of the devs stated that no you can NOT use touch attacks as iteratives. The reasoning was that a touch attack was a stand alone standard action and not like a normal weapon attack.
Found it:
|
|
Can you TWF with touch attacks? I didn't think that would work. I know you can with unarmed strikes, but those are different from touch attacks.I'd have to search further but I am pretty sure one of the devs stated that no you can NOT use touch attacks as iteratives. The reasoning was that a touch attack was a stand alone standard action and not like a normal weapon attack.
Found it:
That does not bar all melee touch attacks from being iterative.
Take, for example, Accurate Strike
Benefit: The magus can expend 2 points from his arcane pool as a swift action to resolve all of his melee weapon attacks until the end of his turn as melee touch attacks.
Combine this arcana with TWF and Frostbite.
That does not bar all melee touch attacks from being iterative.
Take, for example, Accurate Strike
Benefit: The magus can expend 2 points from his arcane pool as a swift action to resolve all of his melee weapon attacks until the end of his turn as melee touch attacks.Combine this arcana with TWF and Frostbite.
So if we go back and look at my earlier numbers and change the % to 100% than you're looking at about 300 damage, figuring in crits probably closer to 400. The average hit points on a cr 20 monster is around 375 so you can conceivably take one out in one round assuming you get everything cast the round before. But the investment is heavy. 3 feats, an arcana and 2 points from your very limited arcane pool every time you use it. Out side of the maybe 10 rounds a day you can afford the arcane pool points you're okay at best. Like i said if you're really loving the concept of a twf magus you could make it work but it's not something I'd recommend in general.
A better build for a magical twf might actually be magus 8/fighter 12. With weapon training, gloves of dueling and the higher BAB you would have a +7 over the magus's base to hit and wouldn't need to use accurate strike. You could cast as a 10th level magus with magical knack. Weapon training, an extra attack and extra feats would make up for the frostbite damage being lower and you'd have better ac with mithral full plate and armor training. Your standard attacks are much better and you can use your arcane pool for other things. I'm too tired to run any numbers but i bet the damage would be comparable to the burst damage of the previous build and it'd be a lot better in all the rounds where the previous build couldn't go nova.
the only thing spellstrike allows a magus to do that a normal caster cannot, is touch his weapon without discharging the spell. so whereas a wizard cannot pick up a weapon or any other object with the hand holding the charge, the magus can pick up a weapon and instead of the spell being discharged, it is extended to the weapon so that it can be discharded through it. if the magus drops that weapon, the charge remains in his hand though
That's sort of what I was getting at except that the normal caster doesn't hold the charge in a specific hand. The only mention of a charge being held 'in the hand' is in the Spellstrike. And, although they do associate it with the 'normal caster', nowhere else in the RAW does it mention holding a charge in a specific hand.
I'm with Tarantula's thought on rewording things slightly to omit the reference to a charge being held in a specific hand. Otherwise they'll have to erratta/FAQ every other reference to holding the charge.