If a PC has 4 spell-storing daggers, quick draw, and a GM that would allow the free actions required, could he/she attack with all 4 daggers in a full attack basically getting off 4 spells?
Not thrown...and 2 would be drawn initially (TWF)
It would basically be attack with dagger 1 and 2 setting off their spells, drop each after they hit then draw dagger 3 and 4 and repeat
I can't remember if you are allowed by RAW to drop weapons during a full attack
Sure, rules say its fine. But as you say, would the GM allow it? i count (assuming you have 2 daggers out) 8 free actions or 10 if they dont have 2 daggers ready ~ Seems like alot.
I'm sure my GM would but this was a question for a friend and I don't know his GM
I would personally see it as no different than allowing gunslingers full attacks with firearms...since dropping and drawing a dagger takes a lot less RL time to do than fully reload and shoot
It sounds to me like the issue is in regards to Spell Storing weapons being potentially abused more than anything else. Personally, I see no problem w/ a character w/ Quick Draw using multiple daggers (typically to be thrown, not dropped after stabbing), but the fact that four castings of Inflict Serious could be used a round is somewhat disturbing (from a game balance perspective).
Can the PC do this more than once a day (or even once every four days)? What spells is he putting in the daggers? Can he actually hit consistently enough to make use of this tactic? These are questions I would want answered before making a ruling as a GM, but at the very least I would have a conversation w/ the player about the meaning of game balance, etc.
Of course, it's entirely possible that the other players and the GM love to amp up the damage/munchkining, so perhaps this is an attempt to keep up w/ the rest of the table.
Sure, rules say its fine. But as you say, would the GM allow it? i count (assuming you have 2 daggers out) 8 free actions or 10 if they dont have 2 daggers ready ~ Seems like alot.
With TWF it's a single action to draw both weapon. So it's 4 free action to trigger the spell and 1 for drawing the new set of daggers. 5 in total.
And BTW spell storing doesnt work on thrown weapon, only on melee weapon.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see a problem. This is no worse than an archer nova-ing arrows of slaying or something like that. Fighter-types are supposed to get lots of attacks and get enough free actions to support all of their attacks. The player in question has invested at least one feat, four spells, and four +2 weapons to be able to pull this combination off. For 32,000 gp and a feat, he ought to be able to do something scary with it at least once per day.
I dont see anything wrong with it. If you were throwing then you would be able to draw them, and it is not really a powerful tactic. You would better off just using a better weapon, and attacking normally. On top of that there will be times when storing the spells in the daggers wont be possible due to an unexpected fight or a drain on resources.
It might be a decent way to do burst damage, but it is not consistent.
I don't see a problem. This is no worse than an archer nova-ing arrows of slaying or something like that. Fighter-types are supposed to get lots of attacks and get enough free actions to support all of their attacks. The player in question has invested at least one feat, four spells, and four +2 weapons to be able to pull this combination off. For 32,000 gp and a feat, he ought to be able to do something scary with it at least once per day.
I read the whole thread and, at the end, was about to write exactly what Orfamay Quest wrote! Since he's covered the basics, I'll add a couple of points.
Number of Free Actions
"Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
Characters with Quick Draw using thrown weapons can explicitly use enough free actions to arm themselves for a full attack each round. Also, the activation of a spell storing weapon is part of attacking with them. As a GM I would definitely allow all of those free actions in a turn.
Should a player say, "I have 50 daggers in bandoliers and Quick Draw, I want to draw and drop all of them before my first attack to decrease my encumbrance," then I'd probably deem that "unreasonable".
There's an easy way for a GM to overrule this without GM fiat.
"This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons."
While, granted, daggers are melee weapons, I think the spirit of the description implies you need to be holding the weapon when the spell is cast.
just read again the part about not throwing, but dropping after a hit. Pretty sure dropping anything is a free action. Assuming you could get four attacks somehow, it's all legal. kick ass
There's an easy way for a GM to overrule this without GM fiat.
"This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons."
While, granted, daggers are melee weapons, I think the spirit of the description implies you need to be holding the weapon when the spell is cast.
OP is using them in melee.
Four spell storing daggers is a massive money sink. The spells don't trigger when thrown, so there's no ranged attacking cheese going on. The daggers still have to actually hit - which is not quite so easy considering that the character's money is being split at least 4 ways on the "weapons" front. More if they have anything significant in the way of ranged weaponry, or perhaps a staff to go all 'Bazooka Joe' on the bad guys with via UMD or the like.
Since two of the daggers become unattended magic items, they have a probably lower-than-the-owner saving throw bonus (+8 bonus) that are no longer protected by any resist and protection from energy spells operating on the owner and the two attended daggers. Take into account that they also are probably only "barely qualified" (i.e., they are +1 spell storing daggers, costing 8,302 gp each for a total of 33,208 gp, which is only a reasonable allocation of WBL at ~13th level). As such, they are hardness 12, 12 hit points each. One chain lightning from a bad guy replying in kind to the threat of those daggers at the expected CR range (13-15) stands a very good chance of obliterating all four of them in one shot, in addition to making the daggers' owner and a swath of other targets dance on the end of lightning bolts.
The gods help the dropped daggers if a significant breath weapon hits them while they're on the ground, let alone an ooze comes along and noms on them, or mini-onions of the villain snatch them up and deposit them into an unfriendly 'terrain feature'...
There are multiple people that keep saying when they are "thrown", again as in my second post...this was a question of using them in melee...and Daggers ARE melee weapons, they can just be thrown. If they aren't melee weapons then my knife master assassin has no idea what hes been doing his entire career :)
They will be "wielded" when the attack hits so it works with spell-storing
I wasn't asking about game balance...I have spoken a little with my friend GM now and he has no actual issue with it since its a one-time thing...I mean not everyone has free access to a spellcaster thats willing to sacrifice 4 spells a day for free, or one that he can pay that has the spells he wants
I simply could not remember if there was any rules precedent about dropping and re-drawing weapons during a full attack.
If any of the above seems offense please disregard, just trying to speak plainly.
I simply could not remember if there was any rules precedent about dropping and re-drawing weapons during a full attack.
Yes, there is a precedent. That precedent is thrown weapons.
Even without thrown weapons, there is precedent: Dropping an item is a free action; assuming you have Quick Draw, then you're fine.
The only 'legal' question here is up to GM prerogative, and that's a limit on the number of free actions in a round; I'll admit that doing this on four daggers a round would push the boundaries of what I'd personally allow in the way of free actions.
There are multiple people that keep saying when they are "thrown", again as in my second post...this was a question of using them in melee...and Daggers ARE melee weapons, they can just be thrown. If they aren't melee weapons then my knife master assassin has no idea what hes been doing his entire career :)
They will be "wielded" when the attack hits so it works with spell-storing
I wasn't asking about game balance...I have spoken a little with my friend GM now and he has no actual issue with it since its a one-time thing...I mean not everyone has free access to a spellcaster thats willing to sacrifice 4 spells a day for free, or one that he can pay that has the spells he wants
I simply could not remember if there was any rules precedent about dropping and re-drawing weapons during a full attack.
If any of the above seems offense please disregard, just trying to speak plainly.
I did not read the entire thread, but if you drop a weapon on the ground it takes a move action to pick it back up, and as far as I know there are no options to quickly sheathe a weapon. The closest thing I know to it would be gloves of storing.
The gods help the dropped daggers if a significant breath weapon hits them while they're on the ground, let alone an ooze comes along and noms on them, or mini-onions of the villain snatch them up and deposit them into an unfriendly 'terrain feature'...Some kind of diminutive plant enemy with stinking cloud perpetually attached? Now I can't stop thinking of the potential of casting awaken on fruits & vegetables (were it allowed).
What about polymorph any object ?
@wraithstrike
I think when my friend spoke with me he simply wanted to drop them and not worry about picking them up...kind of like an "oh crap" nova move if be came up on something that just needed magic