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After hungrily reading the excellent Chronicle of the Righteous, I have learned a great deal more about everyone's favorite Ascended Demon, Ragathiel. And now I have a lot more questions than I ever had before too.
In order to practice Ragathiel's obedience and gain his boons, you are required to slay a wrongdoer every single day. I find this obedience...problematic. How would a devout follower of Ragathiel meet this commitment in, say, an urban-based campaign like Curse of the Crimson Throne or Council of Thieves, without being treated like a serial killer? Every day, someone in the city is killed to appease a wrathful celestial being. I imagine in places like these (especially since they're strongly aligned with devil-worshiping Cheliax), the law would come down pretty hard. Not to mention that for a Lawful Good faith, this sounds a lot like human sacrifice, something that most paladin-types object to. While its true that the Adventure Paths have no shortage of unrepentant villains to slay, this obedience requires you kill an evil person every. Single. Day. How does this account for stretches of downtime where a PC might not be out for villain slaying? What if you're in a place where villainous people are hard to find (especially if you're cleaning up the town anyway)? Are you required to run an extra encounter where you track down and kill an evildoer every day? Most of the other Empyreal Lords aren't nearly as demanding in terms of their obediences, even if some DO seem equally strange or excessive (Arshea demands you have sex every day, for example).
So...how would YOU go about playing a Soldier of Vengeance who holds true to what his patron asks of him, but also accounts for the fact that said patron's request is a tad demanding and generally not considered socially acceptable by polite society, good or evil?
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What Mikaze said :
"Once you’ve performed the obedience, you gain the benefit of a special ability or resistance as indicated in the “Obedience” entry for the empyreal lord."
"If you ever fail to perform a daily obedience, you lose all access to the benefits and boons granted by this feat until you next perform the obedience."
Ragathiel's obedience : "Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel’s name. It is not enough for the sacrifice to have an evil heart or evil intentions; the sacrifice must have committed evil or unlawful deeds."
Note that despite the use of the word "sacrifice", the slaying does not need to happen as part of a ritual. Killing in combat some evil guy who is trying to kill you and/or destroy the world works too.
This is something that I was thinking as well. I think that in Mendev you would have lots of things to sacrifice like demons, etc. Outside, not so much.
However, OP he is not a demon but the son of an archdevil.
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This is something that I was thinking as well. I think that in Mendev you would have lots of things to sacrifice like demons, etc. Outside, not so much.
However, OP he is not a demon but the son of an archdevil.
I know that, but Ascended Demon was the closest trope I could find that reflects Ragathiel's story (spawn of evil turning good), and I wanted something snappy to refer to him to following "everyone's favorite" which I put in because there were a lot of threads about him a while back.
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I've posted a veritable diatribe in response to this question in the Ask Wes Schneider Anything thread. I've pasted the relevant parts of the post below for convenience and visibility.
Ragathiel's obedience was meant to be pretty intense, to be sure, but it shouldn't be an outright obstruction to players who want to be a worshiper of him and collect on his boons every day. Before I get into logistics, however, I'd like to provide some reasoning for my decision to leave this obedience in during development:
Reasoning
One of the big ideas behind Ragathiel's obedience was that since you worship Ragathiel, you'll probably be out on the field slaying evildoers pretty often, since that's what Ragathiel would want of you. Ragathiel doesn't want his worshipers to work at the soup kitchen for extended periods of time, even though that's definitely a good deed; he wants them to go out on the field of war non-stop and wrestle a giant serpent for 16 years straight, just like he did. Just like Arshea doesn't really care if you're slaying archdevils, Ragathiel is pretty single-minded in what he rewards his followers for.
Another aspect of the reasoning behind his obedience was that his boons are almost solely combat-related, so if you're in town doing investigation or espionage, a bonus with slashing weapons isn't going to do you much good (or, if it would, you're likely slashing some evildoers anyway, so you'll get your boons soon as long as you slay said evildoers in the name of Ragathiel). The humble wandering cleric who goes into town every now and then and hangs with the laity for a couple days probably wouldn't be a follower of Ragathiel—or at least she wouldn't put a lot of stock in the combat boons he grants his worshipers. An evil-hunting, butt-kicking demon stomper traveling into the heart of the Worldwound, however, could probably do worse than to worship Ragathiel and perform his obedience as often as possible.
Using the Obedience as Written
I don't want this to sound like a zero-sum game for players who want to play a Ragathiel worshiper in an urban or low-combat campaign, though. No doubt there are still plenty of creative and evocative ways to worship Ragathiel in such settings. I've been toying with one possible way to play this just in my head the past couple days:
- Take up a side-job as the town executioner. Obviously the criminals you're executing are technically "proven wrongdoers". In the instance that you accidentally execute a wrongly accused criminal, you'd probably know right away that something isn't right when you don't receive your boons for that day (which could open up all sorts of cool plot hooks).
If you plan to run the Ragathiel obedience as written, any player that takes the Celestial Obedience feat/mystery cultist prestige class with the intention of following Ragathiel should be made expressly aware of the implications of this choice, including how difficult it might be during certain segments of the game. Of course, a GM so willing might do well to work with the player/adjust the campaign to come up with a viable way for said PC to achieve her boons at least when she would most need them.
Adjusting the Obedience
I'm also of the opinion that you can absolutely change Ragathiel's obedience to more suit the style of your game/campaign. Other posters have suggested switching it out for Dammerich's obedience, which I believe is a more than fair compromise. Some other possible alternatives to running the obedience as written:
- Montage/Behind-the-Scenes: At higher levels and in larger settlements, the obedience could be handwaived as much as any of the other obediences are. After all, there's not really a point in running a combat encounter between a 1st-level warrior NPC who's been murdering innocent townsfolk and a 7th-level paladin PC of Ragathiel; it's pretty clear who's going to win, and it would be a pretty cool display of the paladin's powers/character/background if he went out at the crack of dawn every day to stop some local evildoer in the sewers/outskirts of the city/bad side of town. How cool would it be if while everyone else is picking up camp in the morning, the Ragathiel worshiper is just coming back and solemnly cleaning his sword?
- Powers Earned During Battle: As others (including the author of the book, Amber Scott) have postulated/mentioned, the intent of this obedience was not to be "ritual sacrifice." Rather, the idea behind it was that as long as you perform the necessary hour-long prayers to Ragathiel in the morning, you'll automatically "unlock" your boons for the day the first time that day you slay a proven evildoer in the name of Ragathiel. This is a more-than-appropriate way to play a character who relies on performing the obedience to gain his boons/powers.
- The Grittiest Good: For groups seeking a darker, grittier style of play, actually treating Ragathiel's obedience as a necessary ritual sacrifice could be pretty sweet. While it's probably the darkest way to play good ever, I can definitely see a stoic crusader of Ragathiel keeping a band of unrepentant demons caged up to sacrifice as the days go by on the frontlines of the Mendevian war effort. Maybe the heroes are awaiting much-needed reinforcements before they march back into the throbbing heart of evil that is the Worldwound; they're haggard and worn down, and most can only look away as the crusader carries out his unsavory but necessary task so that he may use his god-given powers to keep the ramshackle border camp safe in the meantime. (As a side-note, can anyone guess that I'm really excited for the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path?)
I'm sure Wes will have an opinion on this subject, but hopefully this post will help explain the reasoning and thought process behind Ragathiel's obedience and provide some solutions to some possible issues that arise because of it.
tl;dr Ragathiel's intense! The feint of heart need not apply! (But talk to your GM.)
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I definitely think the idea of moonlighting as an executioner is a good way to do this...except the city I intend to do it in is Korvosa...during the events of Curse of the Crimson Throne...when Queen Illeosa's executioners tend to be busy killing GOOD people that threaten her mad regime. Ragathiel probably would frown on that, I think. Yes, there are definitely opportunities to go vigilante and slay Gray Maidens or Old Korvosa criminals, and that's easy, but there's also big stretches of time where the PCs are supposed to lie low, when a daily killing will likely get you caught and executed not just for serial murder but for treason too, or are out in the wilderness where the enemies aren't evil, just stupid and hungry...or Shoanti.
Not that I don't appreciate your info. It is incredibly detailed, though to be honest a lot of it was what I was expecting. I know Ragathiel worshipers are more suited to being out in the field than in a game like Curse of the Crimson Throne or Council of Thieves, but on the other hand, those happen to be my two favorite APs. They're like microcosms of Ragathiel's own story, heroes rising from places where Hell's power holds sway. Heck, in every attempt at playing Council of Thieves I've made I ALWAYS play a tiefling character, because it juxtaposes THAT WELL with the tiefling villains, and Ragathiel is practically THE best deity for such a character, someone the character can clearly see himself in.
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Heck, in every attempt at playing Council of Thieves I've made I ALWAYS play a tiefling character, because it juxtaposes THAT WELL with the tiefling villains, and Ragathiel is practically THE best deity for such a character, someone the character can clearly see himself in.
This brings up a weird quirk of Ragathiel's: While his history certainly resonates with good-aligned tieflings and redeemed characters, his M.O. and expectations aren't very friendly with redemptive characters. I can't imagine my Kingmaker/Wrath of the Righteous tiefling paladin switching to his worship at all; he'd probably wind up looking elsewhere for figures to relate to and aspire towards. Chronicles has a few strong candidates for that role.
Admittedly, it's only really a major problem if someone takes a literalist reading of his Obedience and ignores the spirit of it all.* (imagine trying to redeem an evil-doer over a long span of time and having a Ragathielite played purely for the mechanics whack the NPC you were working with. "I need my boons!").
I can't help but think that in those situations, Ragathielites are really expected to do without those abilities. Self-sacrifice and all that.
Ultimately, it's going to come down to talking with the GM to find a happy medium. Even now with Chronicles of the Righteous out, there's actually a lot of room for expansion for Ragathiel and all the rest. That's a lot of space to add more nuance if you're looking for it. :)
Another option could also to be simply having Ragathiel figure into a larger faith. Like say, your tiefling could worship X, with Ragathiel serving as a figure to relate to within the scope of that more mainstream religion.
*It bears noting that Ragathiel's obedience points out that simply having an evil alignment is not enough to warrant killing, so it's not as grim as it seems at a glance(Torag's paladin code got caught with this same perception misfire as well). It could still be abused, but it's still more nuanced that it may seem at first. So more Frank Castle Classic** and less Sheriff of Lynchwood. ;)
**Totally juggling molotov cocktails here with that comparison
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I know the obedience means to end PROVEN wrongdoers, not just detect-smite (I hate paladins that do that anyway). So smiting EVERY Gray Maiden I come across wouldn't be a good idea, especially if they're the morally conflicted ones broken on Illeosa's will, but targeting ones that are terrorizing citizens for fun or whatnot. Though tailing Gray Maidens to catch them in the act is kinda...creepy. I mean, it's probably something Batman or any night-fighting superhero would DO, granted, but still, it mentally seems like the character assumes their guilt before they've actually done something. Again, I know, Ragathiel's for the folks who think Iomedae isn't hardcore enough. But there's got to be a way to operate with SOME subtlety so I'm not carted off to Mad Queen Illeosa and get my head chopped off before I can chop off hers.
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Paladins that smite evil on people just because they're evil aren't paladins for very long in my game.
As it happens, I've got a guy in my Runelords game who made a cleric/paladin of Ragathiel. His take on the lord is far different than the writeup - he's played him as a reluctant killer, far more interested in redeeming the souls he encounters than slaying them outright. He's spent time working with Hannah at her apothecary, healing the sick and injured. He puts himself in harms way to protect the common people.
So we were both a little surprised when we saw the official writeup. When it came down to it, we both decided there was no reason to change how he's played the character. Clearly, he's been paying homage to one of Ragathiel's more compromising aspects, and the cult he belongs to moved away from Heaven's General's more hardline approaches. It's clearly a heretical sect, but I think it's an interesting take on Ragathiel's normal uncompromising attitude.
And I certainly won't send inquisitors after him to purge his heretical beliefs from the cult. Nope.
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I'm imagining cultists of Immonhiel and Ylimancha fueling the decanter of endless water and portable hole market. Or better yet, combine the two: portable jacuzzi!
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I'm imagining cultists of Immonhiel and Ylimancha fueling the decanter of endless water and portable hole market. Or better yet, combine the two: portable jacuzzi!
Only if you want a very tepid jacuzzi. :P
I'll definitely look at the idea of just roleplaying the obedience. I mean, it's Korvosa, there's probably hundreds of opportunities for vigilante justice. I'm just wondering how to keep my boons when there AREN'T opportunities for that, like with the majority of A History of Ashes. If memory serves me right, there's no real evil people to slay in that one until, like, the very end. And you have to hang out with and accept the aid of a pair of evil people. Ragathiel's code doesn't demand you kill all wrongdoers you ENCOUNTER, you can leave a few alone, yes, but Laori Vaus and her boss will probably look like tempting smite targets after a few boonless days.
Ragathiel's cultists should probably stay away from the MC prestige class, as pretty much everything in it depends on fulfilling your obedience. It's one thing to have a few tricks that don't come into play unless you kill a known bad guy that day, quite another to have most of your class abilities suppressed.
On a lighter note, I'm now imagining a small order of healer witches dedicated to Immonhiel, with (celestial) toads for familiars.
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It's a ritual, though. You can't "bank" a ritual. The performance and repetition is what gives it significance. It's a daily reaffirming of your devotion to Ragathiel's teachings and ideals. Killing multiple evildoers in a straight shot and then not doing it for a few days sounds like a flimsy excuse, at least from my admittedly poor understanding of theology.
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It's a ritual, though. You can't "bank" a ritual. The performance and repetition is what gives it significance. It's a daily reaffirming of your devotion to Ragathiel's teachings and ideals. Killing multiple evildoers in a straight shot and then not doing it for a few days sounds like a flimsy excuse, at least from my admittedly poor understanding of theology.
Best check with your GM.
I know I would allow PV's idea for the PrC, but NOT for the feat itself.
Thus a PC could still enjoy all advantages of the PrC EXCEPT the feat's boons as long as his kill-list of wrongdoers is long enough.
Actually, I would allow for him to "spend" them each day that he wants to enjoy his PrC benefits.
But to get the boons, he would still need to make the obedience.
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With all the abilities to Detect X in Pathfinder pulling this off can be tricky. The LG villain would take some finagling but would be pretty nifty - they seem LG, they serve a LG god, they ultimately are acting for good and against evil but perhaps they don't see any grey (and practice serial murder/execution of evil doers) so they have to be stopped by the PCs to prevent some greater evil? (or at least convinced to take a different approach - though a Mystery Cultist of Ragathiel might take a lot of convincing)This however is one of my problems with the mindset players, some DMs, and some developers have with portraying Paladins and LG types in general. They never seem to think of any example of when a CG or NG might be "a villain," but that's almost beside the point. Lets focus on something you said that I agree with. . .until I didn't:Really great villains often work best when they think they are on the right side of things - and when they are seemingly reasonable and have reasons to engage with the PCs that aren't just some final battle.
Except for mustache-twirlers and actual denizens of the lower planes, I'd venture to say that describes virtually every evil person in a game setting. They all rationalize their behavior and believe they're doing the right thing, under difficult circumstances.
But that doesn't make them actually LG, much less Paladin-LG.
Sorry to interject, but this trope is a pet peeve of mine. It stopped being "creative" 25 years ago. That's a quarter of a century. It's one thing to have conflicts between good types (I certainly accept that and am all for conflicts of a certain type between them, as long as neither are made, effectively, into villains). But the "LG is just evil under another description" is wrongheaded and, IMO, displays a lack of understanding of LG.
Apologies for the interruption; I return you to your regularly-scheduled thread, already in progress.
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** spoiler omitted **
You might be interested in one of the sidebars in Dark Roads and Golden Hells concerning portraying good and evil as actually being good and evil respectively. :)
(also, it has Angel Street, which is one of the coolest examples of good at work in the history of the game)
Someone actually suggested an option that makes a lot of sense to me. Korvosa, the city CotCT takes place in, has a rather pesky imp population. Can't get more wrongdoer than an actual devil, right? I could go into the "impsterminator" business!
This raises the possibility of pseudodragon Ragathielites and humanoid Ragathielites with pseudodragon running crews... :D
You might be interested in one of the sidebars in Dark Roads and Golden Hells concerning portraying good and evil as actually being good and evil respectively. :)
(also, it has Angel Street, which is one of the coolest examples of good at work in the history of the game)
Thanks for the protip I'll have to check it out! ^_^
ლ(´﹏`ლ)
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Hey all! Since Archpaladin brought this great question up over in the Ask Wes thread here and I just got to it here I thought some of you might be interested in the discussion. Which currently goes as you see below. I've linked that discussion to this thread if folks want to talk on it more!
I have a question about Ragathiel:
In order to practice Ragathiel's obedience and gain his boons, you are required to slay a wrongdoer every single day. I find this obedience...problematic. How would a devout follower of Ragathiel meet this commitment in, say, an urban-based campaign like Curse of the Crimson Throne or Council of Thieves, without being treated like a serial killer? Every day, someone in the city is killed to appease a wrathful celestial being. I imagine in places like these (especially since they're strongly aligned with devil-worshiping Cheliax), the law would come down pretty hard. Not to mention that for a Lawful Good faith, this sounds a lot like human sacrifice, something that most paladin-types object to. While its true that the Adventure Paths have no shortage of unrepentant villains to slay, this obedience requires you kill an evil person every. Single. Day. How does this account for stretches of downtime where a PC might not be out for villain slaying? What if you're in a place where villainous people are hard to find (especially if you're cleaning up the town anyway)? Are you required to run an extra encounter where you track down and kill an evildoer every day? Most of the other Empyreal Lords aren't nearly as demanding in terms of their obediences, even if some DO seem equally strange or excessive (Arshea demands you have sex every day, for example, but that's nowhere near as demanding as Ragathiel, who asks you to kill people).
You are absolutely right, in some circumstances you might not be in a position to do this everyday, or it might not be in your best interest to perform this obedience. And that's fine. But it will mean that the empyreal lord of vengeance will not grant you his boons that day.
It doesn't kick you out of the class, it doesn't mean you've failed, it just means you don't receive those benefits.
Empyreal lords are demigods. Part of that means that their focuses are more precise than greater deities. It also means that their followings are more regional, more specialized, and in some cases, more prone to fanatics.
A worshiper of Ragathiel would have a difficult time exacting vengeance upon evil doers in, say, Westcrown. His faith and the strictures of his deity might even mean his devotion puts him afoul of mortal laws. That might mean that Westcrown (or similar cities) might not be the best place for him and his faith to flourish--unless he comes to a special arrangement with the local law or goes vigilante (both viable options).
These, however, are not problems he would face as much in the wilds of Belkzen, the shadows of Nidal, or the battle zones of the Worldwound. Not coincidentally, these are the places where Ragathiel wants his servants. He doesn't want them cleaning up procedure in the courts of Magnimar or making sure criminals in Galt get a fair shake, he wants them to be avenging angels--like himself--in conflicts that matter, that need heroes, that aren't safe, that require sacrifice, that call for spilled blood. There is plenty of evil in the multiverse, plenty of evil in Golarion and Avistan alone. Ragathiel doesn't want his people doing small goods behind the lines of civilization, he wants them on the brink, fighting the tides that threaten to overwhelm and that don't shy from assaulting their foes.
Does this make Ragathiel the right deity for every paladin? Certainly not. Does this make him right for every campaign or Adventure Path. Also, certainly not. And fortunately, there are dozens of other deities with less zealous demands, and by extent larger and more accessible faiths.
If you want to play a worshiper of Ragathiel, I would suggest a few things. First, play in a campaign that supports your character and works with your deity's demands on his worshipers--something bold and high in danger like the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path. Second, acknowledge that although your deity makes the same demands of you that he does of himself--to enter the fray against evil daily--you are mortal and not a deity. Therefore, there might be some days where life and reality force you to be less than an avenging blade against evil, and accept that that's fine. Third, if you want to bring Ragathiel's vengeance to lands far from enemy lines, exercise creativity when you need to, get in good with the local executioner or justice system and aid them with the dirty but just work of executions, work with them to root out crime and monsters in dark places, become a vigilante and take matters into your own hands, work out a deal with a local magic-user to call (not summon) evil foes or outsiders to you and challenge them to just combat. This will be challenging, but living up to the demands of an unfathomably powerful paragon of ultimate righteousness should be.
That's part of what it comes down to. Ragathiel is a giant creature of living goodness and law. He has five burning wings and would have six if one of the greatest evils in imagination hadn't ripped it from its socket. He forgoes paradise--Literal Paradise--to soar into battle against beings capable of shattering mortal minds and their impossibly depraved lords to protect beings that will never even be able to fathom what he is. Across millions of worlds things that life brief and imperfect lives raise their voices to him, and to some he offers a measure of his power. All he asks in return is that everyday, they cut down an evil doers that is as equally insignificant as they.
"Ant at my feet, who I favor with my attention. Every day, I want you to go out and put an end to another ant that does wrong. In return, I will grant you a measure of my might and elevate you to a place higher than nearly any other ant around you. Fail, and I will not punish you."
Easy? Maybe not. Worth struggling for to be called a champion of the general of vengeance?
That's between you and your god.