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Greetings all,
In our current campaign, we have a cleric that is exploring the best ways he can augment his ability to Channel Energy.
He is a true neutral Cleric worshiping a true neutral deity. At 1st lvl, he chose to Channel Positive Energy. At a later level, he chose to take the Alignment Channel feat.
Here is where the question comes in: The definition of Channel Energy specifies that it "causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living)...". "Undead" is a well defined creature subtype, however what does "living" represent, from a subtype perspective?
Do all creatures fall into one of the two categories? Either "living" or "undead"?
If so, then what is the purpose of Alignment Channel? Are "outsiders" not also considered "living"?
What is the purpose of Elemental Channel? Are "elementals" not also "living"?
I have not been able to locate anything detailing this assumed subtype, "living".
Now, based on the wording of the two feats in question, it appears that these feats allow you to narrow down the targeting of your Channel Energy to one of the 6 possible alignments(G,N,E,L,N,C). (More if you take the feat multiple times.)
So, the big question is: Why is this "narrowing down" only applied to Outsiders or Elementals?? It's a great idea to be able to "fine-tune" who you are "channeling energy" to, but why not apply it to ALL living, or ALL undead? What is so special about outsiders/elementals that they deserve their own feats? Are they not considered "living"??
Thanks in advance for all feedback!
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Lawful Good cleric with Alignment Channel (Evil) faces a demon. His channel choices are:
Heal all living (this will include the demon).
Harm all undead (there aren't any in this scenario)
Heal all Outsiders with the Evil subtype (umm...)
Harm all outsiders of the Evil subtype (ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!)
Edit to expand on things a little: A positive energy channeller without Alignment Channel either heals (all non-Construct and non-undead) or harms (all undead). Alignment Channel expands his options to allow heal or harm Outsiders with the subtype of his feat. Likewise, a negative energy channeller goes from heal (undead) or harm (non-construct and non-undead) to those plus (heal or harm outsiders with the subtype of his feat). There is no good reason for a positive energy channeller to take Alignment Channel (Good), unless he explicitly wants the ability to harm Good outsiders.
As black raven says, there is no "living" subtype - living applies to all creatures except constructs and undead. Nor is there actually an undead subtype (it is a type).
At high levels, being able to dish out an Area of Effect damage ability that only affects outsiders can be incredibly useful (depending on the campaign).
The points I've made are the same for Elemental Channel, when applied to creatures that meet the requirements.
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Constructs are neither living nor undead.
IIRC, all other non-undead creatures are living.
The Alignment Channel and Elemental Channel may be a legacy from 3.5 where you were only turning or rebuking undead.
In PFRPG, they allow a positive channeler to harm outsiders or elementals. Same for a negative channeler aiming to heal those.
Your Cleric should take the Versatile Channeler feat BTW. Also Ability Focus (Channel) stacks with Improved Channeling. Later on Holy Vindicator can be fun.
There is also a 3PP Class called the Divine Channeler which is basically an alternate Cleric with more Channels (and diverse uses for them) and reduced spellcasting abilities which give a greater weight to domain spells.
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Lawful Good cleric with Alignment Channel (Evil) faces a demon. His channel choices are:
Heal all living (this will include the demon).
Harm all undead (there aren't any in this scenario)
Heal all Outsiders with the Evil subtype (umm...)
Harm all outsiders of the Evil subtype (ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!)
Alignment Channel does not allow me to alter my choice made when I initially received the Channel Energy class feature at level 1 of Cleric. I can only Channel Positive OR Channel Negative targeting "Evil Outsiders"...I don't get to choose. It is whatever I chose when I took my 1st level of Cleric.
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Lawful Good cleric with Alignment Channel (Evil) faces a demon. His channel choices are:
Heal all living (this will include the demon).
Harm all undead (there aren't any in this scenario)
Heal all Outsiders with the Evil subtype (umm...)
Harm all outsiders of the Evil subtype (ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!)Alignment Channel does not allow me to alter my choice made when I initially received the Channel Energy class feature at level 1 of Cleric. I can only Channel Positive OR Channel Negative targeting "Evil Outsiders"...I don't get to choose. It is whatever I chose when I took my 1st level of Cleric.
It does not alter the choice made at 1st level, it adds options to it.
Alignment ChannelChoose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.
Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.
(My bolding)
It does not allow you to alter the choice made at 1st level so if you chose channel positive energy you cannot heal undead just because you have the feat, but Chemlak is correct in what it does otherwise; if you chose channel positive and have alignment channel for evil, these are your options:
Heal living (including living outsiders)
Harm undead
Heal evil outsiders
Harm evil outsiders
First, I'm pretty sure a "living creature" is any creature not of the Undead or Construct types (also, I don't thing a creature with the Dead status condition counts as "living").
Second, these feats allow you to harm as well as heal outsiders of the chosen sub-type (and affect only those creatures), whereas since you chose to channel positive energy, you can only either heal all living creatures within range or harm only undead creatues within range.
Side note: There is no "Neutral" alignment sub-type, so with Alignment Channel you have to choose Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic.
So say your party is fighting a group of Beared Devils. The fight's taking longer than expected and your comrades have all taken a few hits, but so have devils. You could Channel Energy normally to heal your allies, but you'd also heal the Bearded Devils (let's assume you're in a 40' square area for whatever reason). If you had Alignment Channel (Evil), you could choose to Channel Energy to harm only the devils, and possibly end the fight.
PRE-EDIT: Super Ninja'd
Alignment Channel does not allow me to alter my choice made when I initially received the Channel Energy class feature at level 1 of Cleric. I can only Channel Positive OR Channel Negative targeting "Evil Outsiders"...I don't get to choose. It is whatever I chose when I took my 1st level of Cleric.
Alignment Channel
Choose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.
Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.
The wording of the feat is clear that no matter how you normally channel energy, you can choose to either harm or heal the outsiders each time you channel this way.
Lawful Good cleric with Alignment Channel (Evil) faces a demon. His channel choices are:
Heal all living (this will include the demon).
Harm all undead (there aren't any in this scenario)
Heal all Outsiders with the Evil subtype (umm...)
Harm all outsiders of the Evil subtype (ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!)Alignment Channel does not allow me to alter my choice made when I initially received the Channel Energy class feature at level 1 of Cleric. I can only Channel Positive OR Channel Negative targeting "Evil Outsiders"...I don't get to choose. It is whatever I chose when I took my 1st level of Cleric.
Read the feat again:
Alignment Channel
Choose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.
Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.
It does not restrict you to heal or harm based upon your energy type.
Edit: double-ninja'd!!!!
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Constructs are neither living nor undead.
IIRC, all other non-undead creatures are living.
The Alignment Channel and Elemental Channel may be a legacy from 3.5 where you were only turning or rebuking undead.
In PFRPG, they allow a positive channeler to harm outsiders or elementals. Same for a negative channeler aiming to heal those.
Your Cleric should take the Versatile Channeler feat BTW. Also Ability Focus (Channel) stacks with Improved Channeling. Later on Holy Vindicator can be fun.
There is also a 3PP Class called the Divine Channeler which is basically an alternate Cleric with more Channels (and diverse uses for them) and reduced spellcasting abilities which give a greater weight to domain spells.
I can't find anything from 3.5 that is comparable to this for the reasons you state: Channeling Positive/Negative is a new concept to PF that didn't exist in 3.x.
Regarding Versatile Channeler, It is an AWESOME feat, however, without the ability to exclude the party, it can be just as counterproductive as normal Channeling Positive (heal the enemy vs. hurt your party).
What I am really asking is why are Outsiders/Elementals given special consideration and others are not? Is there a Feat that would allow me to apply the same alignment-filter to ALL Living, or ALL Undead?
Think about this scenario: We are helping the spirit of a dead girl (Ghost) find her murderer...I would like to channel positive to all of the skeletons and zombies the evil cleric (murderer) has set upon us without hurting the ghost of the little girl, who is undead, but also NG. If she was a "fire-elemental" or an "angel", I could do it...but not a NG Ghost.
I also just noticed something: According to the Bestiary, all Elementals are ALSO Outsiders. So what's the point of having both defined as Feats??
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It does not restrict you to heal or harm based upon your energy type.
It doesn't allow you to change what your original choice was.
If I chose to Channel Positive at 1st lvl, then I can ONLY Channel Positive. This feat merely allows me to narrow down which outsiders/elementals that Channel Positive affects based on alignment.The feat Versatile Channeler allows me to choose whether I Channel Positive or Negative, regardless of my initial choice at 1st lvl.
Is there a Feat that would allow me to apply the same alignment-filter to ALL Living, or ALL Undead?
Not that I know of.
Think about this scenario: We are helping the spirit of a dead girl (Ghost) find her murderer...I would like to channel positive to all of the skeletons and zombies the evil cleric (murderer) has set upon us without hurting the ghost of the little girl, who is undead, but also NG. If she was a "fire-elemental" or an "angel", I could do it...but not a NG Ghost.
Selective Channeling is what you want.
I also just noticed something: According to the Bestiary, all Elementals are ALSO Outsiders. So what's the point of having both defined as Feats??
Alignment channel only affect those with an alignment subtype. Elementals are very often neutral. Also, creatures can have an elemental subtype without being "x elemental".
What I am really asking is why are Outsiders/Elementals given special consideration and others are not? Is there a Feat that would allow me to apply the same alignment-filter to ALL Living, or ALL Undead?
Waaaaaay back in the day (oD&D, 1E & 2E) Turn Undead could be used on extra-planar creatures (which we now call Outsiders), as well as undead. It was well-nigh impossible to do, but the option existed. These feats simulate that ability.
It doesn't allow you to change what your original choice was.
If I chose to Channel Positive at 1st lvl, then I can ONLY Channel Positive.
It ADDS a choice. Read the feat again, with my bolding above. INSTEAD of the normal effect you can hurt/heal outsiders.
It does not restrict you to heal or harm based upon your energy type.It doesn't allow you to change what your original choice was.
If I chose to Channel Positive at 1st lvl, then I can ONLY Channel Positive. This feat merely allows me to narrow down which outsiders/elementals that Channel Positive affects based on alignment.
The feat Versatile Channeler allows me to choose whether I Channel Positive or Negative, regardless of my initial choice at 1st lvl.
Read the feat again. You are correct that the feat does not change which energy type you channel. What it does is change how you can apply the effect of that channelled energy to certain creatures. You absolutely can channel positive energy and harm outsiders with it. The feat explicitly lets you choose to only harm outsiders, and do nothing to your allies or any undead in the area. It is still positive energy, though.
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if you chose channel positive and have alignment channel for evil, these are your options:
Heal living (including living outsiders)
Harm undead
Heal evil outsiders
Harm...
I don't agree with the 3rd & 4th options being choices. When dealing with something other than undead, Heal=Channel Positive, Harm=Channel Negative. They would not be choices I get to make each time I choose to Channel. So, based on Option 1 & 2, it is clear that I chose Channel Positive at 1st lvl, therefore the only thing Alignment Channel would allow me to di is ALSO choose to only heal evil outsiders, which would have been healed anyway with a normal Channel Positive. It might make more sense if option 3 was Heal GOOD outsiders...in case there were enemy outsiders AND allied outsiders in the range of your Channel.
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Side note: There is no "Neutral" alignment sub-type, so with Alignment Channel you have to choose Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic.
Not to sound like a rules-nazi, but is this documented anywhere?
We have always played that N was just as much an alignment as the others= and this would really throw a kink into how we planned on using some of these feats.Just a link or a book & page # would help.
Thanks.
I don't agree with the 3rd & 4th options being choices. When dealing with something other than undead, Heal=Channel Positive, Harm=Channel Negative. They would not be choices I get to make each time I choose to Channel. So, based on Option 1 & 2, it is clear that I chose Channel Positive at 1st lvl, therefore the only thing Alignment Channel would allow me to di is ALSO choose to only heal evil outsiders, which would have been healed anyway with a normal Channel Positive. It might make more sense if option 3 was Heal GOOD outsiders...in case there were enemy outsiders AND allied outsiders in the range of your Channel.if you chose channel positive and have alignment channel for evil, these are your options:
Heal living (including living outsiders)
Harm undead
Heal evil outsiders
Harm...
We get where you're coming from. You're incorrect.
Here's the feat again, fully expanded with my comments:
Alignment Channel
Choose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.
Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect (heal living, harm undead if positive energy, or harm living, heal undead if negative), you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm (with no differentiation about the type of energy you channel) outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice (heal or harm outsiders or normal channel based on the type of energy chosen at level 1) each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures (it will only have an effect on outsiders of the subtype you have chosen when you select this feat). The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.
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It ADDS a choice. Read the feat again, with my bolding above. INSTEAD of the normal effect you can hurt/heal outsiders.
It doesn't allow you to change what your original choice was.
If I chose to Channel Positive at 1st lvl, then I can ONLY Channel Positive.
Then what purpose does Versatile Channeler serve?
Why would I take that feat and Channel Negative (instead of Positive) with a -2 lvl penalty when Alignment Channel allows me to do the same thing for free?
It ADDS a choice. Read the feat again, with my bolding above. INSTEAD of the normal effect you can hurt/heal outsiders.
It doesn't allow you to change what your original choice was.
If I chose to Channel Positive at 1st lvl, then I can ONLY Channel Positive.Then what purpose does Versatile Channeler serve?
Why would I take that feat and Channel Negative (instead of Positive) with a -2 lvl penalty when Alignment Channel allows me to do the same thing for free?
orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, giants, drow, duergar... The list of non-outsider evil creatures that aren't undead is almost limitless.
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Read the feat again. You are correct that the feat does not change which energy type you channel. What it does is change how you can apply the effect of that channelled energy to certain creatures. You absolutely can channel positive energy and harm outsiders with it. The feat explicitly lets you choose to only harm outsiders, and do nothing to your allies or any undead in the area. It is still positive energy, though.
Ok...so just to be clear: Are you saying that Alignment Channel basically allows me to do the same thing that Versatile Channeler does, BUT only to Outsiders, of a certain Alignment, and WITHOUT the -2 lvl penalty?
(edited for accuracy)
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Firstly I want to thank everyone for their input. This has really been helpful for me.
I think I have this nailed down in a way I understand and can communicate back to our group:
-Alignment Channel allows me to CHOOSE whether to Channel Positive or Negative against only creatures with the "outsider" tag of a specific Alignment.
-Elemental Channel allows me to CHOOSE whether to Channel Positive or Negative against only creatures with a particular elemental tag (Fire, Water, Air, Earth, etc)
-Versatile Channeler allows me to CHOOSE to Channel Positive or Negative against any creature in range at a -2 lvl penalty
-Selective Channel allows me to choose who is NOT targeted by my channel per my CHA bonus.
...did I miss anything?
Side note: There is no "Neutral" alignment sub-type, so with Alignment Channel you have to choose Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic.
Not to sound like a rules-nazi, but is this documented anywhere?
We have always played that N was just as much an alignment as the others= and this would really throw a kink into how we planned on using some of these feats.
Just a link or a book & page # would help.
Thanks.
PRD>Bestiaries>Creature Types>Creature SubTypes does not list "Neutral" as a sub-type.
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PRD>Bestiaries>Creature Types>Creature SubTypes does not list "Neutral" as a sub-type.
Not sure that subtype = alignment.
Taking the example from your link of "Good sybtype":This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned.
Bold emphasis mine.
This definition even goes so far as to say that if a creatures alignment changes, their subtype does not.
According to this: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mastery/planarAdventures.html#_alignment -traits there are neutral-aligned planes.
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I think there may be some confusion here. Alignment Channel doesn't care about the creature's actual alignment, only whether it has an alignment sub-type, for which there exists no "Neutral" listing (if the GM wants to make one for his games, that's his prerogative, but not RAW).
For example, using Alignment Channel (Evil) to harm outsiders would fully effect a Chaotic Neutral Glabrezu, but it would have no effect on a Lawful Evil Astral Deva or a Neutral Evil Tiefling.
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I think there may be some confusion here. Alignment Channel doesn't care about the creature's actual alignment, only whether it has an alignment sub-type, for which there exists no "Neutral" listing (if the GM wants to make one for his games, that's his prerogative, but not RAW).
For example, using Alignment Channel (Evil) to harm outsiders would fully effect a Chaotic Neutral Glabrezu, but it would have no effect on a Lawful Evil Astral Deva or a Neutral Evil Tiefling.
Oh WOW! I totally missed that!
Ok...so that changes things quite a lot!THANK YOU!!
When you choose to channel positive or negative energy without selecting Versatile Channel, that's your choice - positive or negative. You can't switch between the two.
But you can choose to channel Positive to heal or Positive to harm. If you channel positive energy to heal then all non-undead creatures will be healed, and undead creatures will be unaffected; if you channel positive energy to harm, then all undead creatures will take damage, and all living creatures will be unaffected.
As a positive channeler without Versatile Channel, you never channel negative energy, even when you're hurting things. You're simply channeling positive energy in such a way to harm things that are vulnerable to it, rather than healing living creatures.
So to correct your list:
-Alignment Channel allows me to CHOOSE whether to Channel my chosen energy type (positive or negative) to harm or heal against only creatures with the "outsider" tag with a specific alignment subtype
-Elemental Channel allows me to CHOOSE whether to Channel my chosen energy type (positive or negative) to harm or heal only creatures with a particular elemental tag (Fire, Water, Air, Earth, etc)
-Versatile Channeler allows me to CHOOSE to Channel Positive or Negative to heal or harm against any creature in range, with the alternate type at a -2 lvl penalty
-Selective Channel allows me to choose who is NOT targeted by my channel per my CHA bonus.
Firstly I want to thank everyone for their input. This has really been helpful for me.
I think I have this nailed down in a way I understand and can communicate back to our group:
-Alignment Channel allows me to CHOOSE whether to Channel Positive or Negative against only creatures with the "outsider" tag of a specific Alignment.
-Elemental Channel allows me to CHOOSE whether to Channel Positive or Negative against only creatures with a particular elemental tag (Fire, Water, Air, Earth, etc)
-Versatile Channeler allows me to CHOOSE to Channel Positive or Negative against any creature in range at a -2 lvl penalty
-Selective Channel allows me to choose who is NOT targeted by my channel per my CHA bonus....did I miss anything?
That is certainly a way to interpret and describe it. And while it does the job, it's quite possible that some weird cases could come out of those descriptions.
I would phrase them like this:
Channel positive energy lets you choose to heal the living, or choose to harm the undead.
Channel negative energy lets you choose to heal undead, or choose to harm the living.
Alignment channel lets you choose to heal or choose to harm outsiders with one alignment subtype, regardless of whether you channel positive or negative energy.
Elemental channel lets you choose to heal or choose to harm elementals of a specific subtype, regardless of whether you channel positive or negative energy.
(You're spot on with versatile and selective)
The subtype vs actual alignment problem is an edge case, but the short answer is if the creature's type is Outsider [Evil], then Alignment Channel (Evil) works on it.
Don't want to seem overly picky - we really like to help with these sorts of questions - but to explain what I meant by "weird cases", picture the following scenario:
An [Evil] outsider with negative energy affinity (who thus gets healed by negative energy, I'm pretty sure there is one out there, probably from Bestiary 2) gets zapped by a cleric who channels positive energy and has Alignment Channel (Evil) for damage.
What happens?
In the way your description above rules it, there is confusion, since you would treat the effect as negative energy, and the outsider would get healed. What actually happens, by the rules, is that he is zapped by positive energy designed to hurt him, and his negative energy affinity does nothing, he just takes the damage.
That's why we try to clarify as much as we can.
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I appreciate it and understand the importance of the difference between the two.
However, let's say that I am an Evil Cleric who Channels Negative. I go up against your [Outsider][Evil] creature (with energy affinity) and choose to use my Alignment Channel to Harm him with Channel Negative.
What happens?
Does he get healed by the Negative Energy because of his Energy Affinity?
Or does he get harmed by the Negative Energy because of my Alignment Channel?
Which trumps which?
Nice question!
At this stage we have to appeal to the "unstated rule": specific trumps general. This means that a rule or ability which specific outcomes beats a more general case rule. There are three rules in play here:
Negative energy harms living creatures.
Negative energy affinity makes negative energy heal this type of creature.
Alignment Channel allows negative energy to harm some creatures.
I've listed them in order of most general to most specific. In most cases channelled negative energy would heal this creature, but our cleric has a specific ability to let his channel negative energy do harm. My conclusion as a GM is that the creature would be hurt by the effects of Alignment Channel. I am, however, open to discussion.
In most cases channelled negative energy would heal this creature, but our cleric has a specific ability to let his channel negative energy do harm. My conclusion as a GM is that the creature would be hurt by the effects of Alignment Channel.
That's how I'd rule it at my table.
IMO, Feats are "rules breakers". For example: To hit = BAB + Str Modifier. But Weapon Finesse breaks that rule by saying it is = BAB + Dex Modifier. That feat allows the standard rule to be broken. (Some feats add options as well, but we'll ignore that for the moment.)
In this specific example, an evil cleric channeling negative energy would heal an evil-subtyped outsider that has negative energy affinity. But if the evil cleric had Alignment Channel (Evil), he could choose instead to break the standard rule and do harm to that evil-subtyped outsider.
Don't want to seem overly picky - we really like to help with these sorts of questions - but to explain what I meant by "weird cases", picture the following scenario:
An [Evil] outsider with negative energy affinity (who thus gets healed by negative energy, I'm pretty sure there is one out there, probably from Bestiary 2) gets zapped by a cleric who channels positive energy and has Alignment Channel (Evil) for damage.
What happens?
In the way your description above rules it, there is confusion, since you would treat the effect as negative energy, and the outsider would get healed. What actually happens, by the rules, is that he is zapped by positive energy designed to hurt him, and his negative energy affinity does nothing, he just takes the damage.
That's why we try to clarify as much as we can.
It does not bypass negative energy affinity. Negative energy makes the creature treat it as if it were an undead creature.
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive but is healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy, as if it were an undead creature. Format negative energy affinity; Location Defensive Abilities
Special qualities of monsters also break rules.
The creature still treats all negative energy as healing, and all positive energy as a damage.
edit:The feat for channeling to harm outsiders never says you are channeling positive or negative energy. It just says you are channeling to harm or so maybe it is not using either energy type.
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"As if it were an undead creature." Being undead has no bearing on aligned channeling.
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@wraithstrike So why is the Special Quality of a creature more powerful than the Feat of a character? I'm trying to understand the logic behind the heiarchy of conflicting abiliities. Can you expain why Energy Affinity > Alignment Channel?
(It has been understood and agreed upon that Alignment Channel does not change the nature of the Channel (Positive vs. Negative) but only the effect it has on the target (Harm vs. Heal)).
@wraithstrike So why is the Special Quality of a creature more powerful than the Feat of a character? I'm trying to understand the logic behind the heiarchy of conflicting abiliities. Can you expain why Energy Affinity > Alignment Channel?
(It has been understood and agreed upon that Alignment Channel does not change the nature of the Channel (Positive vs. Negative) but only the effect it has on the target (Harm vs. Heal)).
1. It is not about which one is stronger. It is about rules interaction. Sometimes one will take precedence. Othertimes it will be the other.
2. What I was saying with regard to the "harm vs heal" is that you are not necessarily channeling positive or negative energy. You are just channeling to harm or heal the creature. That is just a new function of channel if you take the feat. Notice the feat never says you now get to channel the other energy(positive or negative) type, like versatile channeler does. You simply choose to harm the creature so it does not matter if it has negative energy affinity or not because nothing states you are still using positive or negative energy.<----I like this interpretation.
Another way to look it, if someone insist the energy type is negative is that you instinctively know what type to channel to gain the desired affect since the intent of the feat is to harm or heal.
It is not about which one is stronger. It is about rules interaction. Sometimes one will take precedence. Othertimes it will be the other.So is this merely an arbitrary DM call, or is there some unstated mechanic at play here, such as "specific trumps general"?
No it is not arbitrary GM call. The GM just has to be able to tell you what the result is based on how the rules are. Each case will be different.
You are looking for a generic "one answer fits all" solution, but it does not work like that.
You have to look at each case.
In this case there is no rules conflict because like I said the ability to harm or heal an outsider is a special use of the ability, and the terms positive and negative energy or not even in play.
edit:The feat for channeling to harm outsiders never says you are channeling positive or negative energy. It just says you are channeling to harm or so maybe it is not using either energy type.
I would argue that since the type of energy you channel is defined by alignment (if the cleric is good or evil) or choice at level 1 (if neutral and allowed), a Positive Energy channeller using Alignment Channel is still channelling Positive Energy. The feat changes the effect, not the type of energy you channel (that's what Versatile Channeller is for).
Saying that, I do get where you're coming from, it just tweaks my "munchkin beware" sense that there are feats that allow you to stop channelling your energy type. (I have no justification for this, it's a feeling only). Hence my appeal to "specific beats general", whereby you go from "most general" (negative energy affects living creatures like this), through "next-most general" (this type of living creature is affected by negative energy like this), to "most specific" (this character, when targeting this type of creature, can choose to change how his negative energy works on it).
The feat does say:
"Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged."
That is why I think it changes from being used to do positive or negative energy to simple heal or harm affect, and it only works on specific creatures so there is no way to apply it across the board. Even the polymorph schools dont change your actual creature type anymore like they did in 3.5 so you can't even polymorph someone into an outsider to make it work, not that I think that is an efficient use of polymorph.
There is no way to munchkin this.
Fair enough. And since the outcome is the same whichever way you look at it, it's not a big deal. Must admit, though, that I'm now mighty curious about getting an IAQ (that's infrequently asked question) on: "Does using Alignment Channel or Elemental Channel change your channelled energy to neither positive or negative energy?"
Fair enough. And since the outcome is the same whichever way you look at it, it's not a big deal. Must admit, though, that I'm now mighty curious about getting an IAQ (that's infrequently asked question) on: "Does using Alignment Channel or Elemental Channel change your channelled energy to neither positive or negative energy?"
I think by not making it positive or negative question such as how it interacts with negative energy affinity, or undead or living, and any other thing such energy types would apply to never comes into play. Life is more simple that way. :)
Agreed with Wraithstrike. Nothing in aligned channel really suggests positive/negative energy is involved, so it is very much a possible interpretation. Since it's possible, balanced, and the simplest solution I think it's the one most worth using.
Hey, if we wanted "simple", I'm not sure Pathfinder is the right game! :p
And I'm really playing Devil's Advocate, here, more than arguing from a firm belief in how it's intended to work (if an Evil Cleric in my game wanted to use Alignment Channel (Evil) to harm an evil outsider with negative energy affinity, I'd let him, no question), but I will contend that Alignment Channel does not alter the type of energy being channelled, since that is a feature of the ability defined by the character's alignment (or choice at 1st level), and all Alignment Channel does is add to the available effects that the character can pick from. It still remains Positive or Negative energy. (Since Negative Energy Affinity makes the target creature treat negative energy as if it were of the undead type, Alignment Channel bypasses it completely by having an effect on Outsiders. NEA says nothing about Negative Energy being used to harm Outsiders.)
Hey, if we wanted "simple", I'm not sure Pathfinder is the right game! :p
And I'm really playing Devil's Advocate, here, more than arguing from a firm belief in how it's intended to work (if an Evil Cleric in my game wanted to use Alignment Channel (Evil) to harm an evil outsider with negative energy affinity, I'd let him, no question), but I will contend that Alignment Channel does not alter the type of energy being channelled, since that is a feature of the ability defined by the character's alignment (or choice at 1st level), and all Alignment Channel does is add to the available effects that the character can pick from. It still remains Positive or Negative energy. (Since Negative Energy Affinity makes the target creature treat negative energy as if it were of the undead type, Alignment Channel bypasses it completely by having an effect on Outsiders. NEA says nothing about Negative Energy being used to harm Outsiders.)
NEA does reference living vs dead creatures and the effect negative energy has on them, and outsiders are alive. Your hypothetical interpretation now has to explain why a feat would trump another ability that also breaks the rules. :)
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Alignment and Elemental Channel sort of break the way Channeling works. At it's basic, you Channel the energy, and things react to it based on the (only) choice you make about who to affect. Living or Undead.
NEA is a quality that some creatures have that makes them react to the choice in a way that normally Positive and Negative Energy have the opposite effect. So if I choose to affect the living (with Positive Energy), and there is a living creature with NEA in the area, (regardless of my intent to "heal"), they take damage as an Undead target does from Positive Energy.
Alignment and Elemental Channel add in the options to pick between Living, Undead, Outsider, and Elemental Subtype creatures. It doesn't change anything else, just the option to affect which targets, and because it doesn't work off of the either/or base principle of Channel Energy, you also get to decide if you are using your Positive/Negative Energy to heal or harm them.
So an Alignment Channel aimed to affect a Evil Outsider, with NEA is targeted just like if you had meant to affect the living. If you are Channeling Positive Energy, it will hurt them either way, and not heal. If you are Channeling Negative Energy, it will instead heal them either way, and not hurt them. It doesn't specify that it changes the Energy type, and In fact with Alignment Channel + Channeling Smite, it does specify that all of the damage, (including the weapon damage) is Positive/Negative Energy.
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Somewhat going back to the original post:
So, the big question is: Why is this "narrowing down" only applied to Outsiders or Elementals??
Why just Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel? Why not "Ooze Channel", or "Aberrations Channel"?
Above posts mentioned this is a left-over effect of previous versions...but I don't see why that would even be necessary (the same effect could be accomplished with RAW channel energy ability and the Selective Channeling feat).
Could it be eluding to the "Antilife Shell" spell, where Elementals and Outsiders (along with constructs and undead) were not considered "living" for the purposes of that spell?