Reecy wrote: LOL... Come Shadow it was funny... I even made a point t be sarcastic about it... Ok. I thought so but wasn't sure.
So your basic take on HCS & HiPS is that all they do is create a distraction so you can run to cover exactly as if you'd made a Bluff check? (With an extra -10 in the case of HCS.)
Is that a correct assessment?
Are you considering the Sean Reynold's quote linked earlier: Sean K Reynolds wrote: They work similarly. HS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but you have a penalty on the check. HIPS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but it requires a nearby shadow, and has no penalty. And of course the base rule for HiPS says: Quote: can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. That's not "must get behind cover quickly".
What did I say shadow...it's Komoda again...just give up at this point
I'm sure BBT is satisfied
Btw it's still hilarious to see a guy named shadowlord explain stealth like in the old thread...still waiting on my assassin to meet a NPC with that name lol
Elladan Sindanarie wrote: Shadow,
So in this case how would it all work together,
In bright light the character can Stealth, attack, 5 foot steep and stealth again? What needed rolls would I need and at what penalties (if any)?
Stealth roll -10 using HCS, Attack Roll, Stealth roll -10 for HCS (possibly -15 if you us James' POV on 5' steps).
Elladan Sindanarie wrote: In dim light the character can Stealth, attack, 5 foot steep and stealth again? What needed rolls would I need and at what penalties (if any)? Stealth roll with no penalty using HiPS, Attack Roll, Stealth roll with no penalty for HiPS (possibly -5 if you us James' POV on 5' steps).
Elladan Sindanarie wrote: In darkness the character can Stealth, attack, 5 foot steep and stealth again? What needed rolls would I need and at what penalties (if any)?
Same as in dim light, but HiPS isn't active by strict RAW so a creature with Darkvision would see you automatically.
Shadowlord wrote: Elladan Sindanarie wrote:
In darkness the character can Stealth, attack, 5 foot steep and stealth again? What needed rolls would I need and at what penalties (if any)?
Same as in dim light, but HiPS isn't active by strict RAW so a creature with Darkvision would see you automatically. But you don't need any of the fancy feats we're talking about to do that, which is nice. Anyone can try that.
Though you'd have to have Darkvision to take a 5' Step in the dark.
Ok I see where you make Sense with that...
Yes if you can combine the 2, I totally get that...
Now if you take Bright Light By itself.... You do not get HiPS
So you would need cover in a field on a bright day.... -10 across the board if you are Starting from a hidden position.
Now with Dim Light you no longer need Cover and Since since you are not in Bright light you hide as normal Stealth VS Perception Done Deal...
Now If you Stealth in Attack and want to stealth Out you still need to get to cover in Bright Light with no Dim Light nearby -20... Cover Required...
With Hide in Plain Sight you are covered at a -10 if you interact with someone....
now if you just stalk someone you never get the additional -10...
everything you have pointed out is completely right... Until you get to the Interaction with enemies...
The only way you are getting away without a penalty is going to be Invisibility... I am quite sure even Dev would agree with that...
So based on what you are saying if we go to the next Scene
Combining the 2
You will end up with a -20 if you started in bright light because of Hell Cat or a -10 from HIPS if you started in Dim light...
The kicker of the 2 together is you no longer require Cover to hide...
Now the third Aspect is Darkness... You do not Get either Ability and you requre Cover and Concealment if they have Dark Vision....
This whole build revolves around having some kind of Light around which I find cool... It has its weaknesses But it is very unqiue.
There is no rule about -10 for "Interaction with enemies"
There is "observed", which requires you to break line of sight or have a special ability (like HCS, like HiPS) to overcome. There is no penalty.
You can take advantage of a distraction to dash to cover with a -10 to Stealth, but if you're not using a distraction to reach cover that doesn't apply.
There is also a rule that says attacking ends Stealth, but that also has no penalty attached. And nothing to indicate that you can't use Stealth again if you meet the conditions.
And Sean said that HCS & HiPS work the same way. Both negate the need for cover/concealment.
In Bright light with HCS you can hide in the open field with no need to reach cover and only a -10 penalty.
These other conditions and penalties you're reading into the rules don't apply.
Removed a post. Please revisit the messageboard rules.
thejeff wrote: HiPS wrote: A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. This specifically says "dim light" and nothing about darkness. I'm not disagreeing with you, especially as this is the rules board and RAW is God here, but am I the only one who finds this utterly ludicrous?
Picture this; it's late afternoon (normal light). Jeffrey the Shadowdancer is out for a stroll near (but not in) a small but thick copse of trees which we'll say is dim light for the sake of this explanation. He has no problem using his HiPS because he's near an area of dim light.
Suddenly a drow teleports in, and says "By golly gosh! This sunlight is much to harsh for my fair skin! It simply will not do!". This drow proceeds to cast darkness on the copse of trees, lowering the light level to darkness in the forested area, and promptly runs in.
Now Jeffrey is sad, as he can no longer HiPS due to some strange aversion to hiding using any light that isn't mood lighting. Something tells me this can't be the proper intent of HiPS.
Mortalis wrote: thejeff wrote: HiPS wrote: A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. This specifically says "dim light" and nothing about darkness. I'm not disagreeing with you, especially as this is the rules board and RAW is God here, but am I the only one who finds this utterly ludicrous?
Picture this; it's late afternoon (normal light). Jeffrey the Shadowdancer is out for a stroll near (but not in) a small but thick copse of trees which we'll say is dim light for the sake of this explanation. He has no problem using his HiPS because he's near an area of dim light.
Suddenly a drow teleports in, and says "By golly gosh! This sunlight is much to harsh for my fair skin! It simply will not do!". This drow proceeds to cast darkness on the copse of trees, lowering the light level to darkness in the forested area, and promptly runs in.
Now Jeffrey is sad, as he can no longer HiPS due to some strange aversion to hiding using any light that isn't mood lighting. Something tells me this can't be the proper intent of HiPS. Shadowdancer.
Quote: Shadowdancers exist in the boundary between light and darkness, where they weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception. Their magic is about Shadow, the mixing of light and darkness, not about Darkness itself.
Mind you, they can hide in Darkness as well as anyone else. They just can't use their special abilities without some light to mix in.
Remember back in 3.5 it was within 10' of shadow, not dim light. That was changed for practical reasons, not because the nature of the power changed. It just caused too much rules confusion, arguing about exactly how much shadow was needed.
Edit: It's not about aversion to hiding or mood lighting or anything like that. It's magic. It doesn't work in darkness or in light. It works in shadow.
Mortalis why must you be logical
Shadow Dancer = MOOD lighting and we all know Shadows come only from Low lit Caverns where you are more likely to have a dinner Party than to actually need to Hide in the Dark
I want a Magic item Strobe Light!
Drakkiel wrote: What did I say shadow...it's Komoda again...just give up at this point
I'm sure BBT is satisfied
Btw it's still hilarious to see a guy named shadowlord explain stealth like in the old thread...still waiting on my assassin to meet a NPC with that name lol
Yeah, this is starting to look like that thread.
Mortalis wrote: thejeff wrote: HiPS wrote: A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. This specifically says "dim light" and nothing about darkness. I'm not disagreeing with you, especially as this is the rules board and RAW is God here, but am I the only one who finds this utterly ludicrous?
Picture this; it's late afternoon (normal light). Jeffrey the Shadowdancer is out for a stroll near (but not in) a small but thick copse of trees which we'll say is dim light for the sake of this explanation. He has no problem using his HiPS because he's near an area of dim light.
Suddenly a drow teleports in, and says "By golly gosh! This sunlight is much to harsh for my fair skin! It simply will not do!". This drow proceeds to cast darkness on the copse of trees, lowering the light level to darkness in the forested area, and promptly runs in.
Now Jeffrey is sad, as he can no longer HiPS due to some strange aversion to hiding using any light that isn't mood lighting. Something tells me this can't be the proper intent of HiPS. I have always been ruled and ruled in my games that Shadowdancer HiPS works in Darkness as well. I have even argued for it. But it's not in RAW. By RAW only dim light is named as a trigger.
Claxon wrote: Shadowlord wrote:
So you would allow one or the other but not both on the same character?
Do you disallow Ninjas, because they can do better with fewer resources?
Do you disallow Wizards to cast Greater Invisibility on the Fighter? Because unless all your NPCs roll around with a counter to invisibility that's essentially the same thing.
Do you disallow Rangers, because a smart player can build his Favored Terrains to cover 80% - 90% of most adventures and Rangers have the best version of HiPS that exists in PF.
...
There are just as many ways to boost Perception as there are to boost Stealth.
...
If the only way you can think of to deal with this tactic is readying a single attack you are limiting yourself.
[ No, I would allow all these abilities to be placed on a character with the caveat of you can't stealth in the same turn after an attack. If that were the case then I would think that it is relatively balanced. What if you have Spring Attack?
Claxon wrote: As far as all the other cases they take up limited daily resources and cannot be used all day, the Ninja's Invisible Blade has a limited number of uses per day, spells are limited per day. Once you have the feats there is no limit to how often you can do this. With both HiPS and Hellcat Stealth you actually have a better version of invisibility that can be used all day long without any resources being spent. I don't care that it used two feats to do it, anyone without tremorsense, scent, blindsense, or blindsight will never find you. Yes your opponents can focus on perception to counter your stealth, but most characters do not pump perception because this ulimited duration invisibility didn't exist before. Also, if the GM suddenly pumps every monsters perception just to be able to counter you thats pretty s!!@ty. The Ranger class skill takes up no limited resources and as I said a smart player can spend 80% or more of his time in a campaign in one of his favored terrains.
Claxon wrote: Exactly how would you counter this combination that doesn't involve running away? Imagine there is a party of four fighters with the both HellCat Stealth and either one level in shadowdancer or picked up the shadow well ability with eldritch heritage feats.... Glitterdust is a Stealth killer. Bringing the light level to dim and having an antimagic field in place is a HiPS killer. Fairy Fire would work pretty well I think. Rangers have some spells that give significant bonuses to Perception IIR. The Trip maneuver would work well I think. Iron Bands of Binding would work well.
There are probably a few other good tactics.
But Hide in Plain Sight has always had limits
Terrain or some Prerequisite
Its starting to feel like everyone is trying to get around the invisibility limitation of Permanency on Objects... If you really want a true invisible character why not just make an Invisible Stalker character...
These Are feats and Class Features and no one seems to wants the drawbacks of each.
Shadow I said use Spring attack earlier!
Glitter Dust and Faerie Fire are like -20 to Stealth and -40
But a lot it will always be GM discretion...
HOLY cow Hey Shadow... The Rogue's hide in plain Sight is the only one that is Ex... Did you notice that... So it completely ignores Magic!
james maissen wrote: Shadowlord wrote: I understand what you are saying. I just don't think I agree, probably one of the few things you have said about Stealth that I disagree with. But if a DM ruled that way, I would just make sure I had Fast Stealth. Not a game breaker IMO.
I agree it's not a game breaker, but its more of a question of how it fits into the rules for me.
Do you agree that you cannot take a 5' step into difficult terrain, right? Yes.
james maissen wrote: Moving in difficult terrain when blinded you would move even slower as movement reductions stack. I get that also.
james maissen wrote: My take on the rules is that to stealth (or acrobatically tumble, etc) one has to slow down from the speed that they are capable of moving at, or suffer a penalty on the skill.
That seems to be what is meant from my perspective, do you disagree?
-James
I do disagree, just based on how that portion of Stealth is written:
PRD wrote: When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It doesn't refer to your max speed for a movement, it is referring to your normal speed. I take normal speed to always mean base speed determined by Race/Armor. I just don't feel like it's meant to apply to 5' steps. I could certainly be wrong about this, it's the first time I've thought about it. I'll have to keep that in mind and take a further look at it.
Reecy wrote: But Hide in Plain Sight has always had limits
Terrain or some Prerequisite
No one has stated they don't have limits or prerequisites.
Reecy wrote: Its starting to feel like everyone is trying to get around the invisibility limitation of Permanency on Objects... If you really want a true invisible character why not just make an Invisible Stalker character... Because you don't have to. HiPS and HCS are far more useful and more powerful than you are giving them credit for. But if you REALLY think that simply avoiding a Bluff check and nothing else is worth a 5 feat investment than happy gaming.
Reecy wrote: These Are feats and Class Features and no one seems to wants the drawbacks of each. People don't mind limitations and drawbacks. But IMO, you don't understand the interactions between HCS, HiPS, and Stealth. Due to not understanding it I think you are placing a lot of limitations, restrictions, and drawbacks that aren't really there.
For instance: Please explain why someone needs to "move quickly" to an "unobserved location" to use Stealth when HiPS clearly states you can use Stealth even while observed?
Reecy wrote: Shadow I said use Spring attack earlier! I saw.
Reecy wrote: Glitter Dust and Faerie Fire are like -20 to Stealth and -40 Sounds like Stealth killing to me. I haven't seen any characters who could hide against even a moderate Perception with a -40 or more penalty to Stealth.
Reecy wrote: HOLY cow Hey Shadow... The Rogue's hide in plain Sight is the only one that is Ex... Did you notice that... So it completely ignores Magic! Yes. That is because it's based on Ranger HiPS, which is also (EX) and built right into their level progression without sucking up precious resources. Which is one reason I said earlier that Ranger have the most powerful version of HiPS in the game.
Shadowlord wrote:
Reecy wrote: HOLY cow Hey Shadow... The Rogue's hide in plain Sight is the only one that is Ex... Did you notice that... So it completely ignores Magic! Yes. That is because it's based on Ranger HiPS, which is also (EX) and built right into their level progression without sucking up precious resources. Which is one reason I said earlier that Ranger have the most powerful version of HiPS in the game.
OTOH, the Rogue can pick it up at 10th level. The Ranger waits until 17th.
Many games don't get that far and even if you do, you go most of your career without it.
thejeff wrote: Shadowdancer.
Quote: Shadowdancers exist in the boundary between light and darkness, where they weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception. Their magic is about Shadow, the mixing of light and darkness, not about Darkness itself.
Mind you, they can hide in Darkness as well as anyone else. They just can't use their special abilities without some light to mix in.
Remember back in 3.5 it was within 10' of shadow, not dim light. That was changed for practical reasons, not because the nature of the power changed. It just caused too much rules confusion, arguing about exactly how much shadow was needed.
Edit: It's not about aversion to hiding or mood lighting or anything like that. It's magic. It doesn't work in darkness or...
I guess I didn't see it that way. I think I will just stick to Shadowlord's suggestion and house rule it that way.
Although I will add that they can still hide in shadows, just not their own.
thejeff wrote: Shadowlord wrote:
Reecy wrote: HOLY cow Hey Shadow... The Rogue's hide in plain Sight is the only one that is Ex... Did you notice that... So it completely ignores Magic! Yes. That is because it's based on Ranger HiPS, which is also (EX) and built right into their level progression without sucking up precious resources. Which is one reason I said earlier that Ranger have the most powerful version of HiPS in the game.
OTOH, the Rogue can pick it up at 10th level. The Ranger waits until 17th.
Many games don't get that far and even if you do, you go most of your career without it. Yeah, that is the limitation and draw back for Ranger HiPS. It's the best version, but you don't get it until lvl 17.
I still don't know if I would take the HiPS Advanced Rogue Talent, unless I knew I was only going to be in one or two terrains for around 50% of the campaign. I just don't know if it's better than committing to achieving one or two of the other forms of HiPS.
It is GREAT for NPCs though, I will say that much. I built a gang that had it and stayed in a certain area where they could use it to devastating effect. They were rough for my party to handle.
Shadowlord wrote:
What if you have Spring Attack?
The Ranger class skill takes up no limited resources and as I said a smart player can spend 80% or more of his time in a campaign in one of his favored terrains.
Glitterdust is a Stealth killer. Bringing the light level to dim and having an antimagic field in place is a HiPS killer. Fairy Fire would work pretty well I think. Rangers have some spells that give significant bonuses to Perception IIR. The Trip maneuver would work well I think. Iron Bands of Binding would work well.
There are probably a few other good tactics.
Spring Attack sure...but I'd still say you can't use stealth to hide in the same round after you have attacked. To me that is the only balancing limitation that needs to be imposed.
As far as the Ranger and HiPS and no resources, he has to wait till level 17 as someone pointed out. Its something that only appears in the highest level of games, but I would consider it to be a problem with the recent changes on how stealth works.
How does Antimagic field affect HiPS? Its an extraordinary ability.
I don't like the only good solutions to the problem are magic, because it means melee characters can't really do anything about it on their own. Trip is the only feasible option, and only because you can use your readied action to trip them so they can't 5 ft step to use stealth.
Claxon wrote: Spring Attack sure...but I'd still say you can't use stealth to hide in the same round after you have attacked. To me that is the only balancing limitation that needs to be imposed. I don't necessarily agree, and I don't think it's RAW, but I understand it for certain play styles and groups.
Claxon wrote: As far as the Ranger and HiPS and no resources, he has to wait till level 17 as someone pointed out. Its something that only appears in the highest level of games, but I would consider it to be a problem with the recent changes on how stealth works. True, it's only attainable at high levels. I still wouldn't see it as a problem though. There are FAR worse things at those levels.
Claxon wrote: How does Antimagic field affect HiPS? Its an extraordinary ability. It doesn't affect HiPS (Ex), but it very much affects HiPS (Su) which Shadowdancers, Assassins, and Shadow Bloodline Sorcerers get.
Claxon wrote: I don't like the only good solutions to the problem are magic, because it means melee characters can't really do anything about it on their own. Trip is the only feasible option, and only because you can use your readied action to trip them so they can't 5 ft step to use stealth. Well, there are only two versions I can think of that are (Ex). The rest are (Su) so it makes sense to be fighting a magical ability with magic. However, there is more than just Trip that would work well for melee. Caltrops would be useful. Staggering and Stunning Critical feats would be great. Grappling would also work. Depending on when your DM rules you actually enter Stealth during the 5' step, the Step up and Strike feats might work. Vital Strike for the readied strike. I am sure I could come up with a few others. A Monk's Stunning Fist would probably be useful here too.
I think I have most of it figured out now.
I realize this is not an impenetrable invisibility.
This is however, a PC who will almost always have a chance to hide.
That was the point.
If only there was a reliable way to turn darkness, into dim light.
Carry A few rocks with permanent light casts on them
Toss them wherever you need dim light
blackbloodtroll wrote: If only there was a reliable way to turn darkness, into dim light. Draw an enchanted weapon.
PRD wrote: Light Generation: Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell. Oddly enough there's no rule preventing you from entering stealth just because you're generating light, nor does it become more difficult.
Ioun Torch should work, right?
Yep. The only issue with it is that you then have a personal targeting reticule following you wherever you go.
Can they be given command words? It doesn't look like it.
I like drakkiel's suggestion, my only concern is how long you need to wait until someone has access to permanency.
What would be the most reliable way to generate light? You wouldn't want some CR 1 figuring out your trick and nullifying it with a low lvl spell. I guess, what's the light evvect with the best level for countering magical darkness?
A heightened lv9 light spell.
I guess a collection of Candlerods is fine.
An eternal torch would also do the trick. Just throw it on the ground at the start of battle.
Well, some smokesticks and a Goz Mask might help with the Darkness issue.
The PC does have Darkvision.
Mortalis wrote: thejeff wrote: Shadowdancer.
Quote: Shadowdancers exist in the boundary between light and darkness, where they weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception. Their magic is about Shadow, the mixing of light and darkness, not about Darkness itself.
Mind you, they can hide in Darkness as well as anyone else. They just can't use their special abilities without some light to mix in.
Remember back in 3.5 it was within 10' of shadow, not dim light. That was changed for practical reasons, not because the nature of the power changed. It just caused too much rules confusion, arguing about exactly how much shadow was needed.
Edit: It's not about aversion to hiding or mood lighting or anything like that. It's magic. It doesn't work in darkness or...
I guess I didn't see it that way. I think I will just stick to Shadowlord's suggestion and house rule it that way.
Although I will add that they can still hide in shadows, just not their own. No. They need to be within 10' of dim light. They cannot hide in their own shadows, but that doesn't mean they can hide in any shadow.
Shadow Well still uses the "10' of shadow" language.
thejeff wrote: No. They need to be within 10' of dim light. They cannot hide in their own shadows, but that doesn't mean they can hide in any shadow. I beg to differ.
PRD wrote: Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. It specifically states that the PC cannot hide in her own shadow, it mentions nothing of anybody else's. I would argue the act of specifying her shadow is to emphasise who's shadow she can use (i.e. every shadow but hers).
Otherwise, why say "her own shadow"? Why not just "shadows" in general? Or specify "a creature's shadow" so that you can still use alleyways, shallow/phosphorous caves, and basically every other form of dim light that isn't related to time of day?
The answer: it's to prevent the PC hiding in her own shadow and gaining other Shadowdancer abilities later using just her own shadow. Otherwise using the wording of "her own shadow" to mean all shadows could only lead to confusion.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Well, some smokesticks and a Goz Mask might help with the Darkness issue.
The PC does have Darkvision.
What exactly is a Goz Mask? I wasn't able to find any reference to it other than fluff. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and guess that's it's to do with smoke protection, or the ability to navigate it.
Goz Mask.
They removed it from PFSRD, due to copyright issues.
Thanks for that.
Nifty item, although the increase in size category seems a little random to me.
You are treated as one size category in regards to the effects of wind.
That's it.
Mortalis wrote: thejeff wrote: No. They need to be within 10' of dim light. They cannot hide in their own shadows, but that doesn't mean they can hide in any shadow. I beg to differ.
PRD wrote: Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. It specifically states that the PC cannot hide in her own shadow, it mentions nothing of anybody else's. I would argue the act of specifying her shadow is to emphasise who's shadow she can use (i.e. every shadow but hers).
Otherwise, why say "her own shadow"? Why not just "shadows" in general? Or specify "a creature's shadow" so that you can still use alleyways, shallow/phosphorous caves, and basically every other form of dim light that isn't related to time of day?
The answer: it's to prevent the PC hiding in her own shadow and gaining other Shadowdancer abilities later using just her own shadow. Otherwise using the wording of "her own shadow" to mean all shadows could only lead to confusion. There was no intent behind that line. It was left in from the 3.5 version, where the Shadowdancer did use shadows. Paizo switched it to Dim Light, but didn't remove that line. Don't read more into the rules than is there.
They didn't rewrite that line when they made the change. They didn't consider which types of shadow she could or couldn't use and choose "her own shadow". They just didn't change the wording from when HiPS actually relied on shadows.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Shadow Well still uses the "10' of shadow" language. It does. I would strongly suggest talking to your GM about how he wants to run that before building your character. The most literal interpretation: "Any shadow but my own, regardless how small or large, and darkness is really just the shadow of whatever is blocking the sun", is hugely overpowered. You don't need Hellcat Stealth, just something you can drop on the ground. Whoever you're hiding from is casting a shadow, use that.
There are no rules about shadow. That's the problem with the ability. It potentially leads to endless rules-lawyering.
He might rule it so broadly you don't need other things. He might rule it so narrowly it's practically useless.
thejeff wrote: There was no intent behind that line. It was left in from the 3.5 version, where the Shadowdancer did use shadows. Paizo switched it to Dim Light, but didn't remove that line. Don't read more into the rules than is there.
They didn't rewrite that line when they made the change. They didn't consider which types of shadow she could or couldn't use and choose "her own shadow". They just didn't change the wording from when HiPS actually relied on shadows.
I can see the logic in that, but do you know of an errata, FAQ or dev statement that backs that up? I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just that I would prefer to see that rather than assume that the core rulebook is incorrect.
Mortalis wrote: thejeff wrote: There was no intent behind that line. It was left in from the 3.5 version, where the Shadowdancer did use shadows. Paizo switched it to Dim Light, but didn't remove that line. Don't read more into the rules than is there.
They didn't rewrite that line when they made the change. They didn't consider which types of shadow she could or couldn't use and choose "her own shadow". They just didn't change the wording from when HiPS actually relied on shadows.
I can see the logic in that, but do you know of an errata, FAQ or dev statement that backs that up? I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just that I would prefer to see that rather than assume that the core rulebook is incorrect. I don't.
But I also don't see the core rulebook as incorrect. You are relying on the implication that since it says you can't hide in your own shadow, you must be able to hide in other shadows, but that's not stated.You're just reading more into it than it actually says.
The rulebook is correct. It just says more than is necessary.
Yours is a reasonable interpretation of the text and if that line had been added after the change to dim light or if both were original, then it would be bolstered, since why else would they have put it there? But since the line was retained from 3.5 where it did make sense, the argument isn't nearly as strong.
thejeff wrote: I don't.
But I also don't see the core rulebook as incorrect. You are relying on the implication that since it says you can't hide in your own shadow, you must be able to hide in other shadows, but that's not stated.You're just reading more into it than it actually says.
The rulebook is correct. It just says more than is necessary.
Yours is a reasonable interpretation of the text and if that line had been added after the change to dim light or if both were original, then it would be bolstered, since why else would they have put it there? But since the line was retained from 3.5 where it did make sense, the argument isn't nearly as strong.
Hmmm... Then I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree, as we're just interpreting the same line different ways.
Might be worth faq'ing, but to be perfectly honest if your version is correct (which it very well could be), I would probably house rule it to the way I thought. Thanks for giving your point of view. :)
Shadowlord wrote:
True, it's only attainable at high levels. I still wouldn't see it as a problem though. There are FAR worse things at those levels.
It doesn't affect HiPS (Ex), but it very much affects HiPS (Su) which Shadowdancers, Assassins, and Shadow Bloodline Sorcerers get.
Well, there are only two versions I can think of that are (Ex). The rest are (Su) so it makes sense to be fighting a magical ability with magic. However, there is more than just Trip that would work well for melee. Caltrops would be useful. Staggering and Stunning Critical feats would be great. Grappling would also work. Depending on when your DM rules you actually enter Stealth during the 5' step, the Step up and Strike feats might work. Vital Strike for the readied strike. I am sure I could come up with a few others. A Monk's Stunning Fist would probably be useful here too.
I agree, level 17 there are far worse things than being able to be perpetualy hidden. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's bad, but I agree that compared to what wizards are doing this isn't as big a deal.
Good catch on the HiPS for the others being a Su and not an Ex, I was only looking at the Ranger's version of it. An antimagic field will shut it down, which is an interesting effect.
You've also given me ideas on how to combat this if it comes up in game, I think sufficient enough that its not as one sided as I feared before but a character facing someone with these abilities would still be at a distinct disadvantage.
Not exactly world-shattering, but it can be strong.
Full casters having nothing to fear, in the power department.
Good Luck BBT!
I want to hear how it plays out.
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