Hellcat Stealth Shadowdancer


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, a PC, with the Hellcat Stealth feat, and one level in Shadowdancer(or with the Shadow Well ability of the Shadow Bloodline) attempts to hide.

What does he need?

A Bluff check?

A Move action to move?

What if he just attacked?


What lighting are we assuming the PC is in?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I figured it was irrelevant, as there is Bright Light, Normal Light, Dim Light, Darkness, and Supernatural Darkness, and the said PC can hide in all.

They can do it all, without Cover/Concealment, while being observed.

Shadow Lodge

Well as per hellcat stelth you would take a negitive ten in brigh light but other than that I don't know

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay.

Let's say the PC attacks.

Can he just move back, and Stealth as part of that move?

Can he just 5'step, and Stealth as part of that step?


PRD wrote:
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

I would argue that using stealth after a melee attack should at least be as difficult as stealthing after a melee attack.

Move action if after a melee attack. Otherwise, just as a part of your movement (just as you would draw a weapon as part of a charge).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, it's a bit like Sniping?

Hidden PC attacks, moves back, and uses Stealth as part of that move.

Is there a penalty?

I mean, other than say, the penalty from like moving more than half speed, or the penalty for normal light while using Hellcat Stealth.


Sort of, except that the goal of sniping is to prevent the target from ever knowing you're there, and this is just an escape.

I don't see why there would be any penalty other than what you've already mentioned. Especially when using HiPS, which is a supernatural ability.


BBT I love your questions...but this is one I didn't think you would ever ask since I know you have a good understanding of stealth

As such I see no reason why you couldn't attack then 5 ft step and stealth

Using hellcat you get it's penalty

If your using HiPS or something similar there is no penalty

The opponent would still "know" where you were...well they would have a firm belief as to where you are...just treat you as having total concealment

At the point someone says its overpowered just mention that you have now either spent a valuable feat (multiple actually) or spent a level in a lower BAB PrC or even all of the above just to do this...where someone could just as easily spend 2 levels in ninja and get vanish trick to do just that but actually go invisible...and gain all the nifty bonuses that stealth alone does not grant

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, I am actually looking to have all my T's crossed, and I's dotted.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay.

Let's say the PC attacks.

Can he just move back, and Stealth as part of that move?

Can he just 5'step, and Stealth as part of that step?

Yes to both, it doesn't matter if the PC has attacked or is otherwise observed.

Stealth can be done as part of movement rather than as part of a move action.

Sniping is when you are making a ranged attack unobserved, and never wish to become observed. The 'bolt out of the blue' so to speak without a smoking gun giving away the assassin.

-James

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay.

So, hidden PC, attacks, then 5'steps, and reenters stealth, as part of that 5'step?

Oh, just to be sure, Darkvision changes nothing, no matter the lighting, due to all stated abilities, right?

I really want to be sure all this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

By the way, this PC will have the Conceal Scent, and Dampen Presence feats, and a pair of Boots of the Soft Step.


Actually, I believe where it wouldn't work is in Darkness. Hellcat Stealth lets you use Stealth while observed in normal or bright light. HiPS lets you do so within 10' of dim light.
In darkness you can of course use stealth normally, but not when you're being observed.

So someone with Darkvision would prevent you from using Stealth in darkness, unless there was dim light nearby.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, there is the Shadowdancer/Shadow Well HiPS as well.

So, while Hellcat Stealth handles Normal light and brighter, the Shadowdancer/Shadow Well HiPS handles Dim light and darker.

Are you saying that the Darkness is not viable?


HiPS wrote:
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

This specifically says "dim light" and nothing about darkness.

Shadow Well wrote:
At 9th level, you can use the Stealth skill even while being observed and without cover or concealment, as long as you are within 10 feet of a shadow other than your own.

This is iffier. It doesn't depend on lighting conditions at all, but "shadows". Paizo changed the HiPS wording from "shadows" to "dim light" because shadows were such a pain to run. There are no rules about shadows and you can argue there are pretty much always shadows: Any kind of light and some object to block it makes shadows and darkness is really just a shadow, right?

Unless there's been some FAQ or other ruling, it's pretty much up to the GM.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay.

So, hidden PC, attacks, then 5'steps, and reenters stealth, as part of that 5'step?

Oh, just to be sure, Darkvision changes nothing, no matter the lighting, due to all stated abilities, right?

I really want to be sure all this.

Yes to both.

Mind you the 5' step is at full speed, so you might take more penalties for that.

Darkvision could only alter being observed, which both of your special abilities obviate the requirement in order to use stealth. Darkvision does not change the lighting conditions, they are absolute. The character with darkvision may see without concealment perhaps, and that might be an issue for someone that requires that in order to use stealth (but again your special abilities can replace that requirement).

-James

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay, so this PC can basically be invisible to all(with the right stealth check), except in darkness?

Edit: 5'step at full speed? What the heck is half speed then?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Okay, so this PC can basically be invisible to all(with the right stealth check), except in darkness?

Am I the only one who thinks this is kind of funny (from an in-world POV)? "I'm really good at hiding and sneaking around... except when it's dark."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Actually, that is kind a neat thing, that is perfect for inserting some more flavor.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay, so this PC can basically be invisible to all(with the right stealth check), except in darkness?

Edit: 5'step at full speed? What the heck is half speed then?

There isn't. Just like you cannot 5' step in difficult terrain (half movement).

And the character can remain unseen via stealth checks against perception checks baring other sensory abilities that might obviate it (though you've taken even more feats to mitigate many of those).

-James

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I mean, how is a 5'step not considered half speed, or slower?

If the PC has a movement speed of 30', then the math doesn't add up.

Shadow Lodge

Agreed that makes no sense (the five foot not being way below half speed) and I've never seen a rule saying that's how it works


Honorable Goblin wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Okay, so this PC can basically be invisible to all(with the right stealth check), except in darkness?
Am I the only one who thinks this is kind of funny (from an in-world POV)? "I'm really good at hiding and sneaking around... except when it's dark."

Well, you can still sneak in the dark, just not better than other people.

I've never been quite sure how Stealth works in darkness. Assuming for all of this that no one has Darkvision: Darkness provides total concealment, so you can use stealth if no one is observing you. Does total concealment mean no one is observing you? They're treated as blinded, 50% miss chance, -4 Perception. It seems reasonable to assume they aren't observing you. At least if you step back out of melee range.

You do lose out when they have Darkvision.


james maissen wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay, so this PC can basically be invisible to all(with the right stealth check), except in darkness?

Edit: 5'step at full speed? What the heck is half speed then?

There isn't. Just like you cannot 5' step in difficult terrain (half movement).

And the character can remain unseen via stealth checks against perception checks baring other sensory abilities that might obviate it (though you've taken even more feats to mitigate many of those).

Is there actual RAW for a 5' step being considered full speed?

Quote:
You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty.

5' is certainly less than half your normal move. OTOH, it's as fast as you can move with that type of action.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I mean, how is a 5'step not considered half speed, or slower?

If the PC has a movement speed of 30', then the math doesn't add up.

And if you take a move action to move 5' then you are certainly correct that you are going not at full speed.

If you take a 5' step.. how far can you move? 5ft. That's your full speed for doing it.

Why can't you 5' step in difficult terrain? That's certainly less than half your speed, right?

-James

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I don't think that's how that works.

I think determining what is half your speed, is based off your base movement speed.

I don't see how a 5'step is considered "full speed".

That makes no sense.


james maissen wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I mean, how is a 5'step not considered half speed, or slower?

If the PC has a movement speed of 30', then the math doesn't add up.

And if you take a move action to move 5' then you are certainly correct that you are going not at full speed.

If you take a 5' step.. how far can you move? 5ft. That's your full speed for doing it.

Why can't you 5' step in difficult terrain? That's certainly less than half your speed, right?

Because there's a specific rule that says so. Is there a similar one for stealth with a 5' step?

And remember, per another recent discussion, if a 5' step counts as full speed there's either no penalty or you can't use stealth. The -5 only applies up to full speed. :)


I feel like this needs to be brought up for an official FAQ. This can't be the intention for it to work this way.

Even if it is I simply wont ever play a game this way. Unlimited invisibilty that can't be dispelled or otherwise defeated shouldn't exist. With the combination of items and feats you have listed BBT, unless someone has an higher perception than you have stealth you will never be found. That just shouldn't be possible. You shouldn't be perpetually invisible.

If you tried this at my table my response would be "F**k you, you're dead."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah.

I don't see how every creature hiding, that takes a 5'step, suddenly has a penalty.

The guy hiding, moving 10', takes none.

WTF?


Sometimes, the rules don't make sense.

That's when they need to be fixed. Not houseruled, FIXED!!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No, the line is:

PRD wrote:
When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty.

The 5'step is not the normal speed of the PC.

Tell me otherwise.


Icyshadow wrote:

Sometimes, the rules don't make sense.

That's when they need to be fixed. Not houseruled, FIXED!!

Which rule? What fix? Is there an actual rule involved here or just interpretations?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

This just sounds like a very weird interpretation.

No one's speed changes, because they 5'step.

There's no basis for that interpretation.


Claxon wrote:

I feel like this needs to be brought up for an official FAQ. This can't be the intention for it to work this way.

Even if it is I simply wont ever play a game this way. Unlimited invisibilty that can't be dispelled or otherwise defeated shouldn't exist. With the combination of items and feats you have listed BBT, unless someone has an higher perception than you have stealth you will never be found. That just shouldn't be possible. You shouldn't be perpetually invisible.

If you tried this at my table my response would be "F**k you, you're dead."

What do you want FAQ'd?

Is there something in one of those powers or items that you think doesn't work that way? Should there be a rule that no character can take both HiPS and Hellcat Stealth? Or if he does, he can't buy certain items?

And of course, he's not invisible. Just hidden. There is a difference even if you can't see them either way.

The character's investing a lot in this, for fairly marginal returns. You know where he is when he attacks. Ready actions. Use AoE attacks.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Claxon wrote:

I feel like this needs to be brought up for an official FAQ. This can't be the intention for it to work this way.

Even if it is I simply wont ever play a game this way. Unlimited invisibilty that can't be dispelled or otherwise defeated shouldn't exist. With the combination of items and feats you have listed BBT, unless someone has an higher perception than you have stealth you will never be found. That just shouldn't be possible. You shouldn't be perpetually invisible.

If you tried this at my table my response would be "F**k you, you're dead."

It's a huge investment, and doesn't come full circle until late level.

Being a noncaster, and being able to do something cool, is not something you should punished.

You must not have much experience with optimized full casters.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

This just sounds like a very weird interpretation.

No one's speed changes, because they 5'step.

There's no basis for that interpretation.

I'm not sure I buy it, but the basis is that you're moving as far as you can with that action.

It's sort of a parallel to the question of what happens to stealth if you do a double move. Is 30' with 2 move actions at a penalty?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, now there is a "full speed" 5'step?

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:

I feel like this needs to be brought up for an official FAQ. This can't be the intention for it to work this way.

Even if it is I simply wont ever play a game this way. Unlimited invisibilty that can't be dispelled or otherwise defeated shouldn't exist. With the combination of items and feats you have listed BBT, unless someone has an higher perception than you have stealth you will never be found. That just shouldn't be possible. You shouldn't be perpetually invisible.

If you tried this at my table my response would be "F**k you, you're dead."

I agree that it can be difficult, but not unbeatable.

As for, your last sentence, well you wouldnt have to worry cause would get up and leave any GM's table that was so rude.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, now there is a "full speed" 5'step?

This is the only way it ever occurred to my group to run.

When something is done at 'half speed', it basically costs double movement -- tumbling at half speed costs 10 feet for every 5, and stealth at half speed costs 10 feet for every 5. Stealth cannot normally be used at full speed; and 5 foot steps cannot be taken when your movement is hindered from difficult terrain, so it seemed clear to us that you cannot take stealthy 5 foot steps.

Creatures are typically forced to use a Move actions to stealth, with the dual drawbacks that this prevents Full round actions, as well as incurring attacks of opportunity from anything that can see them.

On the other hand, the rogue's Fast Stealth ameliorates this, allowing stealth at full speed without penalty -- that is, permitting stealthy 5 foot steps, among other things. Although other classes get stealth boosters equal or greater than the rogue does (Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, access to invisibility), under our interpretation the rogue has access to Fast Stealth and can stealth before or after a full attack, which other classes typically cannot do.

I'm not telling you "you are wrong" here, only that the alternative hadn't occurred to us. Perhaps this is part of why my group seems to value a rogue higher than other groups, as well.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, the "Fast Stealth" talent is required to 5'step during stealth, without suffering a penalty?

That boggles my mind.

So, it is the effort involved?

If nothing is hampered, and you use a move action to move 5'step, then no penalty, but under the same circumstances, the same PC, 5'steps, then he takes a penalty?

That is the exact same amount of movement, by the same PC, under the same circumstances.


OK wait Guys you are missing a Key Point here

Full Attack Action turn your Movement Speed to a Max of 5 For a Round

Stealth is broken on Attack you would Suffer a -10 No matter what because of the new Stealth errata...

If you are Hidden a Creature walks into your threat and he did not see you

1. Attack - Denied Dex Bonus
2. Move Action Stealth -15 For Full Move -10 if you have Fast Stealth

Now I saw earlier Questions

Based on this Build
Bright Light Day Light and Dim Light will all now have a -10 to just simply Vanish... Darkness is the only one that you would not suffer a -10

Darkness is Concealment you are no longer seen and Line of Sight is Broken... It becomes a Stealth Check vs Perception at the End of the Rogues Turn...

Now for Dark Vision Negates the Darkness and Concealment...

So basically you created a really interesting Character...

Against people with Dark Vision you want light to vanish at a -10
Against people who need a light Source you need simply break line of Sight and Roll Stealth Vs Perception...

Now there is only one Stealth better than anyone's out there and that is a level 17 Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight.


It's not even clear that you need to move to use stealth.

Quote:
Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, the "Fast Stealth" talent is required to 5'step during stealth, without suffering a penalty?

That boggles my mind.

So, it is the effort involved?

If nothing is hampered, and you use a move action to move 5'step, then no penalty, but under the same circumstances, the same PC, 5'steps, then he takes a penalty?

That is the exact same amount of movement, by the same PC, under the same circumstances.

But he's using a different action to do it. In effect, he has to move faster and less stealthily because he's got less time to do it in.

Again, if I move 30' in one move action, I'm moving at full speed. If I use 2 move action in the same round, am I moving at full speed or at half speed twice?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay.

Let's say you attack as a standard action, then 5'step.

Technically, you still have a move action, so you could move.

Part of that 5'step, you make a Stealth check.

Is it at a penalty?

What if you make a move action after, that is not movement?


Reecy wrote:

OK wait Guys you are missing a Key Point here

Full Attack Action turn your Movement Speed to a Max of 5 For a Round

That's not at all clear. If you use a Full Attack Action, the only movement action you can take is a 5' step. That's not the same thing as changing your movement speed.
Reecy wrote:
Stealth is broken on Attack you would Suffer a -10 No matter what because of the new Stealth errata...
What -10? There's no -10 in the errata.
Reecy wrote:

If you are Hidden a Creature walks into your threat and he did not see you

1. Attack - Denied Dex Bonus
2. Move Action Stealth -15 For Full Move -10 if you have Fast Stealth

Huh? I don't follow the move part of that.
Reecy wrote:

Now I saw earlier Questions

Based on this Build
Bright Light Day Light and Dim Light will all now have a -10 to just simply Vanish... Darkness is the only one that you would not suffer a -10

Why -10 in Dim Light?
Reecy wrote:
Darkness is Concealment you are no longer seen and Line of Sight is Broken... It becomes a Stealth Check vs Perception at the End of the Rogues Turn...

Even if you're standing next to the guy you just attacked?


5' Foot Step Is a Move Action... This action is a Defensive Move Action.

Fast Stealth -This ability allows a rogue to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.

A Rogue Can not take a 5' Foot Step and Stealth unless he has Broken Line of Sight or meets the lighting Requirements.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay.

Let's say you attack as a standard action, then 5'step.

Technically, you still have a move action, so you could move.

Part of that 5'step, you make a Stealth check.

Is it at a penalty?

What if you make a move action after, that is not movement?

You can't.

You can only take a 5' step if it's your only movement this round. You could use a move action to move without a stealth penalty, but then you provoke. And, obviously, can't full Attack.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

This PC does not need to break line of sight, as he can use stealth in Dim Light, Normal Light, Bright Light, without Cover, Concealment, and while being observed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay.

Let's say you attack as a standard action, then 5'step.

Technically, you still have a move action, so you could move.

Part of that 5'step, you make a Stealth check.

Is it at a penalty?

What if you make a move action after, that is not movement?

You can't.

You can only take a 5' step if it's your only movement this round. You could use a move action to move without a stealth penalty, but then you provoke. And, obviously, can't full Attack.

I mean after the standard action attack, you still have 30' of movement possible.

Instead of moving, you 5'step.

Is this 5'step considered "full speed", even though you had a possible 30' of movement available?

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